Can Asia unite?

ariyamusafir

Being a Chinese Christian means they cannot do what traditional Chinese people do, like ancestor worship, drinking of alcohol, gambling, and partaking in many traditions that are taboo to Christianity like astrology, feng shui and so on.

This is for you sephiroth!!! The concept is the same as for Muslim Malays who are Asian. Ching ming, true Chinese Christians cannot go. Mooncake festival too they cannot celebrate.

Sephiroth,

Excuse me ... you misunderstood. I said the Value of Confuciosm is in everday life of Asian, I didn't say everyone follows Confucious.

Confucious took the moral principles of everyday lives and place it for all to see and follow. The values always there and always will be there whether one agrees or not. He only brought it forward when others over look it.

--> That is actually one of my points. My thesis thus far states that Asianitic values does not suddenly miraculously disappear upon embracing Christianity

NOTE: I'll speak from a Christian point of view. I'll let the Muslims here talk about their own faith...but I guess the 'major players' here are only interested in bashing Debmey/SFE   

John Lennon,

Being a Chinese Christian means they cannot do what traditional Chinese people do, like ancestor worship, drinking of alcohol, gambling, and partaking in many traditions that are taboo to Christianity like astrology, feng shui and so on.

When I was a Christian, I was told a lot of things were taboo, like even practicing tai chi because it involves "supernatural" elements of "qi" and yoga is satanic because Satan can easily possess you.

So, I agree with Seph here. Your only excuse of Christianity strengthening family ties only. Family values isn't just an asian value. It's a universal value. Show us how a Chinese can be Xtian while still maintaining his/her roots.

--> First, stop shooting yourself in the foot. Ancestor worship?

"Respect can come in many ways but it is not the form...rather the substance that is important. To illustrate, respecting ancestors, a typical Chinese culture. While Taoist/Buddhist respect their ancestors by burning paper money and offering food, others do not do this. However, respect is duly given by taking care of the burial site, remembering the deeds and moments when they were alive and giving thanks for their contributions that led us to be who we are today."

Drinking alcohol and gambling?

These two elements have been present in mankind since time immemorial...what so Chinese about that?

You speak of feng shui, astrology etc and that is specifically related to Chinese society. The main topic in consideration is Asianitic societies. Do Indians/Vietnamese practice feng shui? Are they a cultural norm in Asia?

Please read the sociological evolution of Asianitic cultures for more understanding.

In regards to Yoga and Taichi, do you JUST listen to what people say without attempting to understand why they say it? This issue alone can cover a whole topic. Rather than debating it out, I would suggest reading up articles, consult those who made those claims, refer to the relevant source to find out for yourself.

Sephiroth,

One can be Buddhist and Shinto followers at the same time despite of the fact that both principles had came from different source altogether. However, one cannot be a Christians and a Muslims at the same time despite of knowing that both come from the same source. In another word, Asian values and Abrahamic religion values are NOT THE SAME in effect.

And No, some religions (especially Abrahamic) do not include scope of Identity. A Muslims is someone who is identified by his clothing, his way of talk, his was of doing about his life and work (and most recently, how many planes he lands into buildings.  ). EACH and EVERY aspect of their lives already planned by their master - Muhammad and they have to be obiedience to his master whether they like it or not. In that context, they will lose the identity of an Asian and took on the identity of a Muslim.

I really don't care the difference or similarities between Christianity and Islam. As far as I know, they are Abrahamic religions and they are not part of Asia and its people.

--> Both Buddhism or Shintoism are different in context and application and you saying just because Abrahamic religions do not come from Asia so they  eradicate Asian values? Your statements seem to make the issue centre more on geography than anything else which you denied saying in your previous posts to Wicked.  

I repeat, to disregard the differences between Christianity and Islam in this context of your discussion renders your points irrelevant.

Both Seph and JL,

Bollocks. Wicthcraft, tarot cards and stuff were derifed from Western pagan influences like Celtic religions and even Wiccans (if not mistaken). Remember D&D? What about those horoscopes you read in papers?

On the contrary, religions like Buddhism and philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism attracted Westerners because of it's humanistic values which Abrahamic religions like Xtianity is devoid.

--> Tying in both of your responces. Firstly, I did not say that Westerners believe that Asian people could pull rabbits out of hats. The interaction of cultures, one one hand, Westerners are intrigued with the cultures of Asia, likewise, the Asians are intrigued/awed by the achievements of the Westerners; thus it is a 'mutual exchange'. To say that Westerners come to Asia just to learn its cultures is to repeat what Seph said, "I do not know which hole you crawled out from".

Seph,

When did I say one cannot lose their roots upon embracing a religion? It strictly depends on whether a religion comes from Asia or not.

If an atheist discard tradition and culture as useless ... then he is an atheist. What else is he? He choose to become an atheist. He is no longer Chinese other than physically.

And yes, a lot of Asians losing their culture beliefs and adapt useless and spiritually tainted religions like Abrahamic Religions. They still hold on to the invaders' principles (since it was brought by invaders from Europe about 500 years ago) and forgot their own places in the society. Materialistic values have become a way of life and to some people this is the only way one should live. Is this Asian Values which brought by people like Confucious? And Buddha? NO.

--> ...I do not know where you crawled out from either but ok Seph....to you I'll confess. I am not Chinese ok? I am a Christian and I have lost all my Asianitic values. ;)

Your family seems to be full of male chauvionists (maybe a mistake in spelling here). They seems to have opinion that female are slaves to men. Show me example where females in Hindusm, Buddhism, Shinto and other Asian values which undermined womenfolk.

It is true that men take the centre stage and most of the time women are behind. This is because of their physical weakness and the fact that they are emotionally unbalance at some times.

--> From the statement above, I can safely say that whatever you are, Seph, you are definitely not Chinese. Please lah...do you have grandparents or great-grandparents? If yes, have you ever talked to them? If not, please do. You could also READ up the role of women in ancient China and their evolution of role.

For goodness sake lah, please read up lah, don't just tembak your mouth away.

[ Last edited by WinterNights on 5-6-2004 at 07:50 PM ]

Seraphim

Originally posted by WICKED at 4-6-2004 11:33 AM:
No doubt your statements are true. I dont deny them the way you've denied the fact about living in adultery for your society. who gives a damn when your society doing such a  conduct like dumbing the babies into the rubbish bin? Who gives a damn about your society making explicit video and who would give a damn if your society running to Thailand to get marry and what really matter who gives a damn when your society living in adultery? NOBODY GIVES A DAMN!

No statistics,no proof ...mere speculations..seriously i dont give a damn if you dont give a damn...You need to really open your eyes and check which society in trouble here...:lol

Originally posted by WICKED at 4-6-2004 11:33 AM:
hey why bother to go to thailand  if it is okay for you to be living in adultery, so I guess it is okay for you to keep a baby out of wedlock and abortion is unnessary or throwing babies into the rubbish bin will never happen to your society! So I guess your society and my society are facing a similar problem and it should be stop somewhere before it become synonymous.

Adultery?Any proof besides granpa stories or some market gossips?? And no it's not OK to have baby out of wedlock...Throwing babis in trash can never actually done...Abortion only done when it's because of health or other problems deem legal...And no your society does experienced  problem like rape and incest which is not similar with the rest...I guess sometimes you dont even need to go to Thailand to "release",just do it with your sister and daiughters..If i use your kind of defected logic:lol

Originally posted by WICKED at 4-6-2004 11:33 AM:
We have syariah law to tackle such problems. We use the medium of media to alert people to stop doing such activities and the most important thing is to teach people especially our society the lessons eventhough such a conduct absolutely shameful to the society..

Syariah law is good..however no laws can do anything if the individuals dont want to follow...

by sephiroth
Your fathers and mothers busy looking for wealth, and sometimes have so much problem with each other that it will cause divorce. They just allow their children to go uneducated with basic manners (which is why Muslims children makes the most noise anywhere they go) and that bad manners become basics of bad attitude later in life. Look at yourself ... lying just so you don't have to agree that you are wrong.  Your mummy never taught you not to lie? Your prophet never taught you not to lie?

your father  always drunk & cant avoid drinking todi...and when  he gets angry he smacks your momma & you too. No wonder i can see you turn out to be so rebellious because it is how you've been living in the past and Im  not surprise you'll be like your father too and treat your wife & children the same way, that's how indian society being raised and how they start to involve with gangsterism! because it runs in the blood, run in the families unless if you willing to change the attitude!

[ Last edited by WICKED on 7-6-2004 at 09:17 AM ]

Sephiroth

by WinterNights

And No, some religions (especially Abrahamic) do not include scope of Identity. A Muslims is someone who is identified by his clothing, his way of talk, his was of doing about his life and work (and most recently, how many planes he lands into buildings.  ). EACH and EVERY aspect of their lives already planned by their master - Muhammad and they have to be obiedience to his master whether they like it or not. In that context, they will lose the identity of an Asian and took on the identity of a Muslim.  

You said SOME religions (including Abrahamic) do not include scope of Identity. Show me what other religion OTHER than Abrahamic Religion do not include scope of Identity into their faith.

As for Muslims losing the identity of an Asian and taking on the identity of Muslim, that is TRUE which is why Muslims are not to be considered Asian at all.

--> Both Buddhism or Shintoism are different in context and application and you saying just because Abrahamic religions do not come from Asia so they  eradicate Asian values? Your statements seem to make the issue centre more on geography than anything else which you denied saying in your previous posts to Wicked.  

Buddhism and Shintosm ARE different in context and application BUT THEY WORK SIDE BY SIDE TOGETHER to form a proper society without the society losing the values of its Identity.

Shintosm is about approaching God through Nature. Buddhism is almost atheist-like in approach to spiritualism and more toward personal developments. Each contribute something to another and do not erase anything from one another.

Not only Shintosm, same with Hindusm where Buddhist and Hindus live side by side without giving problems to each other or erasing one another's identity in India and in Malaysia. Same as Buddhism and Toasm in China which is similar to Shintosm.

THIS is Asian values. Each his own, one do not force his or her value onto others just so they could feel that they are correct like what Abrahamic religions are doing. That is why Muslims and Christians are NOT Asians.


--> ...I do not know where you crawled out from either but ok Seph....to you I'll confess. I am not Chinese ok? I am a Christian and I have lost all my Asianitic values.

OK ... thank you.


--> From the statement above, I can safely say that whatever you are, Seph, you are definitely not Chinese. Please lah...do you have grandparents or great-grandparents? If yes, have you ever talked to them? If not, please do. You could also READ up the role of women in ancient China and their evolution of role.

For goodness sake lah, please read up lah, don't just tembak your mouth away.

And why did you say I'm not Chinese? Because I didn't qoute any great Chinese females which helped China got up to its feet again?

And we were talking about your uncle, NOT my grandparents. ;)

ariyamusafir

THIS is Asian values. Each his own, one do not force his or her value onto others just so they could feel that they are correct like what Abrahamic religions are doing. That is why Muslims and Christians are NOT Asians.

How many times must I stress. Religion is one thing, being Asian which is based on your geografical area is another and one is Asian or not does not depend on its culture or what but depends on its geografical area. Get it!!!!

THIS is Asian values. Each his own, one do not force his or her value onto others just so they could feel that they are correct like what Abrahamic religions are doing. That is why Muslims and Christians are NOT Asians.

he stressed more about asian values, but where is the value when someone becomes rebellious and then inherit his father's bad behaviour. he never blame it on himself but  blame it on the father for how he has been raised up in a wrong way while the fact he shouldnt follow his father's mistake!  no wonder he likes to blame the muslims because his mindset has been programmed that way!

Seraphim

Originally posted by ariyamusafir at 4-6-2004 07:03 PM:


This is for you sephiroth!!! The concept is the same as for Muslim Malays who are Asian. Ching ming, true Chinese Christians cannot go. Mooncake festival too they cannot celebrate.

Who told you that:lol
Chrstians can go to Chin ming or Cheng beng or watever...They just cant use the "colok" OR they can even use the colok but for the purposes of respecting and the action itself has no hidden meaning

Mooncake festival??Of course Chinese Christians can celebrate...

Sephiroth

by Seraphim

Chrstians can go to Chin ming or Cheng beng or watever...They just cant use the "colok" OR they can even use the colok but for the purposes of respecting and the action itself has no hidden meaning

Mooncake festival??Of course Chinese Christians can celebrate...  

That's because Christians here are still relatively secular compared to the West.

In the West, things like Meditations and Yoga also discouraged and festivals like Mooncake (which is none existence there) most likely be banned.

Take Singapore for example ... even use of fire crackers and burning offerings is not allowed even during festival times once a year in various reasons, as if Singaporeans are the only people in the world who is going to get sick for inhaling smoke. ;)

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Seraphim at 7-6-2004 13:15:


Who told you that:lol
Chrstians can go to Chin ming or Cheng beng or watever...They just cant use the "colok" OR they can even use the colok but for the purposes of respecting and th ...

Ching Ming is you go clean the graveyard of the loved deceased and also to offer your "prayers" to them in which Christians does not permit the praying except to their god. By the way that is not the issue. The issue is that even Chinese Chrsitians who cannot celebrate such festivals are "also" Asians when they are born and bread in and living in Asia. Their blood is of Asian. Thus they are Asian even though they are Christians. That is what I am trying to say.

Debmey

:dia::blah:

ariyamusafir

Originally posted by Debmey at 9-6-2004 21:28:
:dia::blah:

:ketuk::ketuk:

Originally posted by Gravedigger at 18-5-2004 06:39 AM
The only barriers that unite Asia is country like Singapore who feels like a master under the shadow of Uncle Sam. They even thinked that they are more civilised than their neighbour around them. C ...

this is only ur own opinion. singapore are very close to taiwan n china, and they only look down at malaysia (espeasially those malay people). yes, they are more civilised than their neighbour countrie, this is true not just think. "China when they feel they are more westernised than the western themself", totally wrong... u dont even understand chinese politic and things, u can not say that, n they also hate that.in china, the gorverment dont agree their people learning english language much, from this point we can see that china hav develop their own style way. for example: chinese style economic management............

Originally posted by WinterNights at 18-5-2004 07:08 AM
Well it depends...

Take for example Japan. The country itself is constantly on the forward in terms of technological advancement and over the decades, the cultural evolution in Japan has adopted ...

the only things that asian canot united, because of japan country also. u know why, because japan gorverment they think they are not a part of asia also. u dont understand japanese, pls dont say so much. japan culture are copy from china dynasty tang.........!!   the oriental culture are similar example japanese, chinese, korean..................   why japanese culture are so popular, because they good at promotion, marketing .............!!

Sephiroth

by WinterNights   

They have gone through a process of evolution and this is evidenced by the consequences of the Cultural Revolution. At this point, I am speaking from a Chinese perspective because that is my ethnic origin. If you want to get a clearer picture, you should read up the evolution of traditional customs over the past centuries.

The underlying reason for my post, is partly based on Seph's contention that the identity of Asian is lost upon embracing either Abrahamic religions. Thus, I am making the comparison that if that were true, then as a process of change/evolution of Confucian values, those practising those values have also lost their identity.

Cultural Revolution is not Evolution, it is MUTATION.

Chinese Communist/Atheist (animals) wanted to get rid off Religion and its beliefs. Taoism and Buddhism is one such belief. They noticed (in 1950 - 60s), they cannot do this because the people held onto the relgious beliefs like Taoism and Buddhism too tight. So what they do it, they added their own Atheist beliefs into this belief making it de-avoid of ALL form of Spiritualism.

Therefore, in MY personal beliefs, Chinese Buddhism from China are not Buddhist at all but some sort of Mutation. They do not follow the 4 Noble truth or the 8-folded Path, they live like Animals and their society is crumbling.

Their rise from World War 2 is evident by the contributions made by either scholars or warriors of the past(e.g. Miyamoto Musashi) yet if you compare the contrasting behaviour patterns of the 50s to that of today, you will see a very drastic change. That being said, have they lost their Asian identity?

Sadly ... they're losing it. :hmm:
They live in fast-lane too much and emphasize too much in economic factors.

In Zen Buddhism, it emphasized on Emptiness within (which you can see in many games produced from Japan), unfortunately for Japanese youth nowadays, Emptiness means to them is to indulge yourself so you will not regret it later and live like you going to die tomorrow attitude. Sigh ...

Adding a gloss to that, the infusion of Abrahamic faiths, does not erode these values but yet enhance this. This is not a process of 'Confucianization' of these faiths, rather it is the opposite. Respect to elders is a common and fundamental virtue of society. Whether it comes from the mouth of Confucious or Jesus, it demonstrates the very basic element of humanity. Of course, the distinguishing factor in this, as you pointed out, is that one is a philosophy and another is a religion.

In WHAT way may I ask the infusion of Abrahamic faiths enhanced Asian Values? Do I have to remind you that Christian societies have MORE Old-Folks home than in ALL Asian countries combined? ;)

Confucious or Buddhism NEVER said that they are the ONLY way. Get that straight. :no:

Going back to the point of the influences of religions. By embracing a religion, an Abrahamic religion for example, these values of family integrity, respecting elders or ancestors, loyalty to country, cultural celebrations and many more do not just disappear.

Oh YES they DO. :ah:
When Christians arrive at the Incas, it only took Christians 10 years to wipe hundreds of years of civilization.
When Christians meet the Red Indians, they box the Red Indians together and ship them to a place called Reserves where the once proud Red Indians, now lived like beggars in their own lands.

In many Asia countries, Christians came and shove their beliefs up our noses and in return, they took away the land, resources, power, culture, heritage AND OUR VERY EXISTENCE.

Do I have to remind you how many wars Muslims fought in India?
And now, Muslims are the most pitiful lifeforms on this Planet, living off our blood like some parasites.

In WHAT way does following their "values" going to improve Asian Qualities? ;)

Respect can come in many ways but it is not the form...rather the substance that is important. To illustrate, respecting ancestors, a typical Chinese culture. While Taoist/Buddhist respect their ancestors by burning paper money and offering food, others do not do this. However, respect is duly given by taking care of the burial site, remembering the deeds and moments when they were alive and giving thanks for their contributions that led us to be who we are today.

Hmph ... this is the problem with Abrahamic believers. They expect others to respect them as IF they made some great progress in life, equilavent to you.

They expect you to respect them, because by doing so, you unknowingly bowing and submitting yourself to them and their foolish beliefs. Disrespecting them means disrespecting their foolish belief.