Can a founder of a religion lie and yet still be revered ?

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 15-12-2012 08:02 PM
Evidences of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are mounting in both New Testament and are even prop ...

Again , just another copy paste without understanding :

Evidences of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are mounting in both New Testament and are even prophesized in Old Testament. Of course if someone believe that both NT and OT are corrupted it iis pointless to carry on reading this post.(Amazing someone came almost 600 yrs later claimed that he knew more about Jesus than those Jesus's own apostle, who lived, walked, preached together and even witnessed his death and resurrection.)

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is a core belief in Christianity and this is in direct conflict with Islam whereby in koran, it was stated Jesus wasn't crucified but Allah made somebody else to resemble Jesus and was crucified....). Which is true  and which is wrong ?  

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ did not take place in obscurity. The writers of the four gospels were actual figures in history that wrote, from various perspectives, about the life, ministry, and death of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Their writings depicted eyewitness accounts of documented happenings in history. The variety of theories as to the events following the crucifixion and to what happened to the body of Jesus, only serves to further establish the fact of this heinous death. Such well-known legends as the swoon theory, that Jesus only passed out on the cross and was later resuscitated by the cool air of the tomb, and the case of the stolen body are strewn throughout literature chronicling the events of that time. The fact is, the death of Jesus Christ was never disputed. The Jews, both those who hated him and those who would become His future followers, witnessed His death. It was a public event that took place in front of the whole world. John 12:32-33 says, "'But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.' He said this to show the kind of death He was going to die." Joseph of Arimethea, himself a notable figure of the Jews of that day, requested the body of Jesus in order to give Him an honorable burial.

As to the validity of the mode of execution, it was established that by the first century, crucifixion was the Roman method for certain non-Roman criminals. It was initially employed as a form of punishment causing extreme pain and humiliation, so much so that the word "excruciating" was created for the express purpose of describing the unfathomable horror of the individual's suffering on a cross. Excruciating literally means, "out of the cross." How wonderfully this fit into the plan and will of God: "If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. . ." (Deuteronomy 21:22-23).

The massacre and shame that the Savior endured as one accursed was suffered for our benefit. He who never sinned suffered on our behalf, for our sins worthy of death; we were the accursed. The severity of the punishment was a stark reflection of God's holiness and His hatred of sin. While we as humans justify ourselves and compare ourselves to others who may not be as "good" as we are, God has indicated that the slightest infraction is an affront to His holiness.

1 John 5:17 says, "All wrongdoing is sin. . ." What a terrible weight Jesus carried, the load of our sins that so disfigured Him, that even the Father turned away? Matthew 27:46 "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Perhaps the greatest evidence of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the eternal results in the lives of those who have accepted Him. Those who have believed in what happened on Golgotha have been given the right to be called sons of God, and may now cry "Abba, Father." We can now have fellowship with the living God.

Jesus Christ was not the first or last person to be crucified. He was the only one, however, to be resurrected, and that from such a horrible death. He bore in His resurrection body, forever, the scars of His crucifixion in His hands and feet and side. We are told in God's Word that this will ever be a witness, for as the prophet foretold, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zechariah 12:10).

Where in the verses , John 12:32-33 / Deuteronomy 21:22-23 / 1 John 5:17 / Matthew 27:46 / Zechariah 12:10 that explicitly states biblical Jesus was crucified and was resurrected?

None so far .... try again , harder the next time ...

wkk5159

Someone here sure doesn't know the difference between resurrection of Jesus Christ and resurrection of the dead in Last Days....

wkk5159

Somebody obviously doesn't know that 孙子兵法was originally written in Chinese...and i read, write and speak Chinese very well.

wkk5159

Not harder the next time, twister the next time...as can be shown in the Bible verses quoted.

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 15-12-2012 08:47 PM
Someone here sure doesn't know the difference between resurrection of Jesus Christ and resurrection  ...

Someone here sure doesn't know the difference between resurrection of Jesus Christ and resurrection of the dead in Last Days....

What is the difference between the resurrection of biblical Jesus against resurrection in the last days? If there is a difference then provide the biblical verses that state such.

Until now , nothing from you. Ha ha , it seems that your brand of christianity is all about whims and fancies and not biblically driven. Hmmm ....

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 15-12-2012 10:42 PM
Somebody obviously doesn't know that 孙子兵法was originally written in Chinese...and i read, write a ...

It doesn't matter if you read and write chinese. The book has its title Sun Tzu not Sun Zi nor Sun Tze nor 孙子. Are you that small and narrow minded that you don't even understand when the image of the cover of the book has been displayed for you? The bigger question - have you read the book? The answer is an obvious NO. No wonder you are so ignorant.

Not harder the next time, twister the next time...as can be shown in the Bible verses quoted.

None of the biblical verses you quoted stated explicitly that biblical Jesus died and was resurrected. Ha ha , you can't provide the verses , can you? This shows that your faith is not biblically driven. You cannot even respond to my claims with the pertinant biblical verses that biblical Jesus was not crucified nor resurrected.

Come on , like 'truth.8' says , look up a bible scholar .....

wkk5159

Funny when someone cannot understand and comprehend the materials that i've written, he as usual will resort to either saying that i copied & pasted my post and keep on demanding me to quote Bible verses as evidences of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection when in my previous reply i clearly stated verses 1 John 5:17, Matt 27:46, and Zech 12:10...in fact there are more but like i said before it is pointless to waste your kilojoules just to entertain this self confess "muslim bible scholar".

Absurd and truly amazing isn't it ?

Koran and Bible are just not compatible, which one is corrupted ? I guess you and me already have an answer in our heart.

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 16-12-2012 08:14 AM
Funny when someone cannot understand and comprehend the materials that i've written, he as usual wil ...

Funny when someone cannot understand and comprehend the materials that i've written, he as usual will resort to either saying that i copied & pasted my post and keep on demanding me to quote Bible verses as evidences of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection when in my previous reply i clearly stated verses 1 John 5:17, Matt 27:46, and Zech 12:10...in fact there are more but like i said before it is pointless to waste your kilojoules just to entertain this self confess "muslim bible scholar".

Absurd and truly amazing isn't it ?

Koran and Bible are just not compatible, which one is corrupted ? I guess you and me already have an answer in our heart.

Challenge accepted :
joh12:32-33

32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

deut21:22-23

22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole,
23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

1joh5:17

17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

mat27:46

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

zech12:10

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look onme, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Can you now pinpoint where in the above said verses that you appealed to stated explicitly that biblical Jesus was crucified and resurrected. I think there is a problem with your comprehension. Ha ha , you still cannot challenge me on my argument that biblical Jesus was not crucified nor resurrected. The biblical verses stated explicitly that he did not die nor resurrected.

What is the difference between the resurrection of biblical Jesus against the resurrection at the end of days? Your biblical evidence?

If you claim the Quran is corrupted , provide your evidence.

As for the bible , I quote Prof Bart Ehrman :

Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies?

good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term.

It appears that some of the New Testament writers, such as the authors of 2 Peter, 1 Timothy and Ephesians, felt they were perfectly justified to lie in order to tell the truth. But we today can at least evaluate their claims and realize just how human, and fallible, they were.

Further critique by Prof Ehrman :

Whoever wrote the New Testament book of 2 Peter claimed to be Peter. But scholars everywhere -- except for our friends among the fundamentalists -- will tell you that there is no way on God's green earth that Peter wrote the book. Someone else wrote it claiming to be Peter. Scholars may also tell you that it was an acceptable practice in the ancient world for someone to write a book in the name of someone else. But that is where they are wrong. If you look at what ancient people actually said about the practice, you'll see that they invariably called it lying and condemned it as a deceitful practice, even in Christian circles. 2 Peter was finally accepted into the New Testament because the church fathers, centuries later, were convinced that Peter wrote it. But he didn't. Someone else did. And that someone else lied about his identity.

Lies in bible? Prof Bart Ehrman

Let see what is your response , being a bible thumping fundie

wkk5159

Muslims oh muslims.......seems like they never learn from their mistake by using the same old dirty tactic to smear Christianity again and again. It really just consolidate the point that i stressed in this thread at the very beginning.

Before i get into the detail, let just start by looking at a brief background of Prof Bart D Ehrman, he is a professor at University of North Carolina and a bible scholar turns critic of New Testament. He has authored numerous books attacking the validity of the New Testament including Misquoting Jesus. Muslims often exploit Ehrman’s work and parade his anti-Christian rhetoric in videos and articles. But is Ehrman really a hero for Islam? Or does he hold to historical views that are also detrimental to Islam?

On the issue of The Crucifixion of Jesus. The vast majority of Muslims reject the Crucifixion of Christ because their Quran rejects this historical event. In the Quran we read:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (Quran 4:157, Pickthall)

It is quite clear that this religion teaches its followers that Jesus’ crucifixion was just an act of deception on the part of Allah.(Note : fellow Christian, deception of Allah ! In Islam not only Muhammad encourages lies, their Allah also deceives !)  The Quran teaches that Allah deceived everyone to think Jesus was crucified but that it didn’t actually happen historically speaking. This claim is very problematic and it flies in the face of 1st and 2nd century historical data. For this reason the supposed hero of Islam, Bart Ehrman rejects Islam’s position that Jesus wasn’t crucified and he has openly stated that he believes Jesus was crucified according to the available data. In his work ‘The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings,’ he states:

In any event, Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate.

So it seems that the hero for Islam agrees with the Christians about Jesus being crucified.

On the issue of Paul the Usurper or Real Apostle of Christ?
Many modern Muslims hate Paul because Paul clearly taught Christ’s divinity in his writings. Even though there is a strong case to be made that Paul was a true apostle according to the Quran and early Muslim sources (*), many Muslims do not hesitate to slander and even mock the Apostle Paul. Many Muslims claim that Paul was not a true apostle. They claim that he simply came in later and corrupted everything somehow.

However, Bart Ehrman does not share this radical belief. In fact Bart Ehrman defends Apostle Paul as an early reliable source of information for the life of Jesus. Ehrman contends that, based on the evidence, the Apostle Paul knew the original disciples of Jesus and became one of them.

In a radio interview the Infidel Guy challenged the notion that Jesus even existed and claimed that there is no real evidence for him existing. Ehrman, confused at the assertion because virtually no scholars hold this view, corrects the deceived radio host. They then debate and Ehrman states the following:

We have one author who actually knew Jesus’ relatives and knew his disciples… Paul…. It’s not an embellishment that Paul met with James in Jerusalem.

So what we have is Islam’s hero Bart Ehrman destroying modern Muslim belief about Apostle Paul. Ehrman, along with the majority of serious scholarship holds the view that Paul was a true disciple of Jesus Christ who met with the leaders of the early church shortly after Jesus’ crucifixion, not a usurper.

On whether Jesus was buried & His Apostles Reported Visions, Muslims deny that Jesus was crucified. Islam teaches that Jesus was rescued from the cross by Allah and that someone was made to appear like Jesus on the cross. However the hero of Islam, Bart Ehrman, although he disputes the type of burial Jesus had, does concede that Jesus was most likely buried and that his disciples most likely did have visions where they believed they saw the risen Christ!

Dr. Ehrman remarks:

What I think we can say with some confidence is that Jesus actually did die, he probably was buried, and that some of his disciples (all of them? some of them?) claimed to have seen him alive afterward. Among those who made this claim, interestingly enough, was Jesus’ own brother James, who came to believe in Jesus and soon thereafter became one of the principle leaders of the early Christian church.

Since Islam denies that Jesus died and was buried one can logically assume that they deny that Jesus’ followers had multiple experiences in which they thought that they had seen the risen Christ. I am not aware of any Islamic text which states that the post resurrection appearances were delusions from Allah. However the supposed hero of Islam grants all of this based on the early data. It looks like Bart Ehrman holds to historical views which undermine Islam in a very strong way.

On issue related to Does the Bible anywhere teach that Jesus is God?

It is a common theme for Muslims to assert that nowhere in the Bible does it teach that Jesus is God. Many debates have been waged on this very subject. Muslims believe that it is shirk (unforgivable sin) to associate partners with Allah. This is why Muslims will try to make a case that the Bible doesn’t teach that Jesus is God. Because they don’t understand the Trinitarian doctrine they believe we are associating another being with God. However the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is one being of God existing in three persons, not three beings. One Muslim apologist Sami Zaatari has stated:

I don’t believe the first four gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John … I don’t believe preach he is God at all. I believe they preach that he is the Messiah, a prophet and that’s it. And he did mighty miracles and great works.

This is a bold claim but does Islam’s anti-Christian hero Bart Ehrman share the same view as Zaatari? Or does Bart Ehrman admit that there are passages in the Gospels that teach Jesus’ deity?

Bart Ehrman refutes Zaatari’s distortion and states:

The Gospel of John … goes a long way toward identifying Jesus himself as divine (see e.g., John 8:58; 10:30; 20:28).

These are the verses which Ehrman believes attest to Jesus’ divinity in the Gospel of John:

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (John 8:58, NASB)

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30, NASB)

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28, NASB)

Although Muslim apologists will claim that the Gospels don’t teach that Jesus is God, Islam’s supposed hero Bart Ehrman lists three passages in the Gospel of John that he feels clearly attest to Christ’s divinity.

In conclusion, we learn that Ehrman grants many things that Islam emphatically denies which should make people wonder why they hold this man in such a high view. We learn that Ehrman accepts four important historical facts that Islam rejects about Jesus and early Christianity. Ehrman grants Jesus’ death on the cross, the reliability of Paul as an apostle and acquaintance of the disciples, Jesus’ burial, that Jesus’ followers had experiences in which they believe Jesus appeared to them, and that the Gospel of John teaches the deity of Christ.

Fortunately this Prof Bart Ehrman is a critic of New Testament, if he is a critic of Quran, i afraid that he already ends up in the wanted list of muslims and receive the death threat from muslims worldwide.......   

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 17-12-2012 10:25 AM
Muslims oh muslims.......seems like they never learn from their mistake by using the same old dirty  ...

Ha ha , such poor response from you. You seem to copy paste your answer but you are too dishonest to provide the link of your copy paste. What has bro Sami Zaatari got to do with this discussion as your copy paste mention him?

We muslims deny that Prophet Isa(as) was crucified. Do you know what is the meaning of crucified? It means death while hanging on the cross or stake. If the condemn person did not die that means he was not crucified. The popular belief of Prophet Isa(as) being substituted is just it , a popular belief. It is not found in any codified text of Islam. Even the bible do not have first hand account that biblical Jesus was crucified. Why can't Allah deceive the people who wanted to kill Prophet Isa(as) thus saving his messenger? This is logic.

The report by Tacitus was about 70 yrs after the fact ~ CE117. There is no mention of biblical Jesus in his work 'Annals' except a mention of "Christus" in Book XV, Chapter 44, as follows :

"Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race." (D.R. Dudley's translation)

Where did you get the idea that Tacitus have first hand knowledge of the crucifixion , oops ... crucifiction of biblical Jesus?

Prof Ehrman did not and have not defended Paul in any way. In fact he has a very dim view of Paul as Paul's writings came so much later and Paul was not an eye witness nor did he met , walked and talked to bibical Jesus. Knowing biblical Jesus relatives / apostles is different from knowing biblical Jesus himself. Again you are trying to twist Prof Ehrman's words. He actually stated that the Gospel of John is different from the synoptic gospels as it tried to portray biblical Jesus being divine. He actually stated in no uncertain terms that all the 4 gospel writers were unknowns. How do I know it? I have read the book 'Misquoting Jesus'. Have you read the said book? The answer is a plain no.

Ha ha , why are you trying to pull a fast one? You cannot respond to the critic by Prof Ehrman of your bible? By the way . Prof Ehrman was a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute.

Your problem is twofold. Biblical Jesus being crucified is just half of your belief. You believe that biblical Jesus was crucified and resurrected with no historical evidence.

What we muslims have been saying about your bible for the past 1400 yrs is what the biblical scholars are now coming out and telling you folks. An excerpt quote by Prog Bart Ehrman :

Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies?

Whoever wrote the New Testament book of 2 Peter claimed to be Peter. But scholars everywhere -- except for our friends among the fundamentalists -- will tell you that there is no way on God's green earth that Peter wrote the book.

You being a bible thumping fundie is arguing on emotionalism instead of logic and data.

wkk5159

Somebody don't even read my reply, probably don't understand it anyway and as usual use the same vocab like "you must have been copied and pasted it...'
The deceptive yet dumb muslim obviously doesn't know who Prof Bart Ehrman is and start quoting his remark without realizing the fact that this scholar beside criticizing new testament in Bible also hold views which are contradictory to muslim's belief; the obvious few are;
1.The Crucifixion of Jesus.
2. Paul, real Apostle of Christ?
3. Jesus was buried & His Apostles Reported Visions.
4. Jesus is God according to Bible ?

Muslim charlatans, go and read all of Prof Ehrman anti-Christ articles before embarrassing yourself here in front of the world.

wkk5159

Quote from Sam1xxx; "Why can't Allah deceive the people who wanted to kill Prophet Isa(as) thus saving his messenger? This is logic."

Yea.....according to islamic faith it is logic to deceive !

You all still have any doubt now why i started this thread ?

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 17-12-2012 03:26 PM
Somebody don't even read my reply, probably don't understand it anyway and as usual use the same voc ...

Somebody don't even read my reply, probably don't understand it anyway and as usual use the same vocab like "you must have been copied and pasted it...'
The deceptive yet dumb muslim obviously doesn't know who Prof Bart Ehrman is and start quoting his remark without realizing the fact that this scholar beside criticizing new testament in Bible also hold views which are contradictory to muslim's belief; the obvious few are;
1.The Crucifixion of Jesus.
2. Paul, real Apostle of Christ?
3. Jesus was buried & His Apostles Reported Visions.
4. Jesus is God according to Bible ?

Muslim charlatans, go and read all of Prof Ehrman anti-Christ articles before embarrassing yourself here in front of the world.

Who are you trying to BS? Your copy paste answer mentions the name Sami Zaatari. Bro Sami Zaatari is a contributing member of the Muslim Debate Initiative or MDI
Therefore your copy paste is about trying to refute Bro Zaatari in which you have been too dishonest to provide the link.

My question to you , have you read the book 'Misquoting Jesus' by Prof Ehrman? It is obvious answer from you is no. Too bad for you , I have read the book. One of the central theme in his book is him urging to read all the book of gospels side by side so that one can observe the  evolution of biblical Jesus from man to sort of God from the Gospel of Mark to the Gospel of John.

(1) Provide the biblical verses that state explicitly that biblical Jesus was crucified
(2) Provide the biblical verses that Paul actually met , walked and talked to biblical Jesus
(3) Provide the biblical verses that state explicitly that biblical Jesus was resurrected. A person high on LSD can have visions
(4) Provide the bioblical verses that explicitly state of biblical Jesus admitting being God and demand worship

From day one till now , nothing from you but articles after articles of red herrings.

BTW , have you ever heard of Prof Ehrman till today? Awaiting your response to the article by him on the bible containing lies. Too scared to answer?

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 17-12-2012 04:39 PM
Quote from Sam1xxx; "Why can't Allah deceive the people who wanted to kill Prophet Isa(as) thus savi ...

Quote from Sam1xxx; "Why can't Allah deceive the people who wanted to kill Prophet Isa(as) thus saving his messenger? This is logic."

Yea.....according to islamic faith it is logic to deceive !

You all still have any doubt now why i started this thread ?

You still have not answered me. Why can't Allah deceive the killers who wants to kill his messenger , Prophet Isa(as) in order to save the messenger?

My post#3 shows numerous biblical verses that the biblical God deceives. You have no issue about it.

You have no standards in your argument. Knock knock , I hope 'up there' is not empty ....

wkk5159

Do this pseudo-dyslexic muslim sincerely want the truth and references ??? He always claimed that he read many books including Sun Zi Art of War, Prof Bart Ehrman books and many more, from what he has presented and written, it is obvious that he is either lying or only capable of understanding less than 10% of the contents of these books......

You wants the references and the truth ?? Here it is.... if not later he will make up story like; " You never read these books, you only going in cycle, you can't argue with facts that kind of familiar rhetoric.....

Many Muslims adore the New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman because he is a former Christian who is now a critic of the New Testament. He has authored numerous books attacking the validity of the New Testament including Misquoting Jesus. In turn Ehrman’s claims have been challenged and addressed in subsequent articles and debates.1 Muslims often exploit Ehrman’s work and parade his anti-Christian rhetoric in videos and articles. But is Ehrman really a hero for Islam? Or does he hold to historical views that are detrimental to Islam?

In any event, Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate.2

We have one author who actually knew Jesus’ relatives and knew his disciples… Paul…. It’s not an embellishment that Paul met with James in Jerusalem.3

What I think we can say with some confidence is that Jesus actually did die, he probably was buried, and that some of his disciples (all of them? some of them?) claimed to have seen him alive afterward. Among those who made this claim, interestingly enough, was Jesus’ own brother James, who came to believe in Jesus and soon thereafter became one of the principle leaders of the early Christian church.4

I don’t believe the first four gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John … I don’t believe preach he is God at all. I believe they preach that he is the Messiah, a prophet and that’s it. And he did mighty miracles and great works.5

Bart Ehrman refutes Zaatari’s distortion and states:

The Gospel of John … goes a long way toward identifying Jesus himself as divine (see e.g., John 8:58; 10:30; 20:28).6

Footnotes

1 For a few articles and debates regarding Ehrmans views see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

2 Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, Oxford University Press, 2000], p. 197

3 Infidel Guy Interview with Bart Ehrman (31:50 – 35:38)

4 Bart Ehrman, Jesus, Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, [Oxford University Press US, 1999], p.229

5 Sam Shamoun vs Sami Zaatari Debate: Is Jesus God? Time slice (3:49 – 4:05)

6 Bart Ehrman, Whose Word Is It? [Continuum International Publishing Group, 2006], p. 161

wkk5159

On the issue of Biblical God also "deceived" ?? Didn't i reply this serpent already in my previous thread, obviously he is suffering from advance stage of Alzheimer......poor thing .

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 18-12-2012 10:16 AM
Do this pseudo-dyslexic muslim sincerely want the truth and references ??? He always claimed that he ...

Do this pseudo-dyslexic muslim sincerely want the truth and references ??? He always claimed that he read many books including Sun Zi Art of War, Prof Bart Ehrman books and many more, from what he has presented and written, it is obvious that he is either lying or only capable of understanding less than 10% of the contents of these books......

You wants the references and the truth ?? Here it is.... if not later he will make up story like; " You never read these books, you only going in cycle, you can't argue with facts that kind of familiar rhetoric.....

Many Muslims adore the New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman because he is a former Christian who is now a critic of the New Testament. He has authored numerous books attacking the validity of the New Testament including Misquoting Jesus. In turn Ehrman’s claims have been challenged and addressed in subsequent articles and debates.1 Muslims often exploit Ehrman’s work and parade his anti-Christian rhetoric in videos and articles. But is Ehrman really a hero for Islam? Or does he hold to historical views that are detrimental to Islam?

In any event, Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate.2

We have one author who actually knew Jesus’ relatives and knew his disciples… Paul…. It’s not an embellishment that Paul met with James in Jerusalem.3

What I think we can say with some confidence is that Jesus actually did die, he probably was buried, and that some of his disciples (all of them? some of them?) claimed to have seen him alive afterward. Among those who made this claim, interestingly enough, was Jesus’ own brother James, who came to believe in Jesus and soon thereafter became one of the principle leaders of the early Christian church.4

I don’t believe the first four gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John … I don’t believe preach he is God at all. I believe they preach that he is the Messiah, a prophet and that’s it. And he did mighty miracles and great works.5

Bart Ehrman refutes Zaatari’s distortion and states:

The Gospel of John … goes a long way toward identifying Jesus himself as divine (see e.g., John 8:58; 10:30; 20:28).6

Footnotes

1 For a few articles and debates regarding Ehrmans views see: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

2 Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, Oxford University Press, 2000], p. 197

3 Infidel Guy Interview with Bart Ehrman (31:50 – 35:38)

4 Bart Ehrman, Jesus, Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, [Oxford University Press US, 1999], p.229

5 Sam Shamoun vs Sami Zaatari Debate: Is Jesus God? Time slice (3:49 – 4:05)

6 Bart Ehrman, Whose Word Is It? [Continuum International Publishing Group, 2006], p. 161

Ha ha , you are now trying to change the issue. The issue is that Prof Bart Ehrman stated in very clear terms that the bible apart from being corrupted also contain lies , post#48. Your answer is a cut and paste of someone responding to Sami Zaatari in which you are too dishonest to provide the link. It is not even addressing the issue of the bible containing lies. You are running away from the real issue.

Of course Prof Ehrman , being an agnostic , believed that biblical Jesus died one way or another. For you to argue of him quoting Tacitus and regard it being authoritive is very misleading. In Prof Ehrman's blog , he has this to say with regards to Tacitus :

The Tacitus Question

      While I’m on the Tacitus reference.   At one point in my book I indicate that “I don’t know of any trained classicists or scholars of ancient Rome who think” that the reference to Jesus in Tacitus is a forgery (p. 55).   Carrier says this is “crap,” “sloppy work,” and “irresponsible,” and indicates that if I had simply checked into the matter, I would see that I’m completely wrong.   As evidence he cites Herbert W. Benario, “Recent Work on Tacitus (1964-68) The Classical World 63.8 (April 1970) pp. 253-66, where several scholars allegedly indicate that the passage is forged.

A bit further , Prof Ehrman stated that he consulted James Rives , an expert on Roman Religions :

His initial reply was this:
I’ve never come across any dispute about the authenticity of Ann. 15.44; as far as I’m aware, it’s always been accepted as genuine, although of course there are plenty of disputes over Tacitus’ precise meaning, the source of his information, and the nature of the historical events that lie behind it.  There are some minor textual issues (the spelling ‘Chrestianos’ vs. ‘Christianos’, e.g.), but there’s not much to be done with them since we here, as everywhere in Tacitus’ major works, effectively depend on a single manuscript.

Bart Ehrman's blog

This is exactly what I stated in post#50 with regards to the book 'Annals' book15 chap 44. Therefore for you to quote that Prof Ehrman relied on the testimony of Tacitus is misleading to a point of deceit. Interestingly in his new book , 'Did Jesus Exist' :

At the same time, the information is not particularly helpful in establishing that there really lived a man named Jesus. How would Tacitus know what he knew? It is pretty obvious that he had heard of Jesus, but he was writing some eighty0five years after Jesus would have died, and by that time Christians were certainly telling stories of Jesus (the Gospels had been written already, for example), whether the mythicists are wrong or right. It should be clear in any event that Tacitus is basing his comment about Jesus on hearsay rather than, say, detailed historical research. Had he done serious research, one might have expected him to say more, if even just a bit. But even more to the point, brief though his comment is, Tacitus is precisely wrong with one thing he says. He calls Pilate the "procurator" of Judea. We now know from the inscription discovered in 1961 at Caesarea that as governor, Pilate had the title and rank, not of procurator (one who dealt principally with revenue collection), but of prefect (one who also had military forces at his command). This much show that Tacitus did not look up any official record of what happened to Jesus, written at the time of his execution (if in fact such a record ever existed, which is highly doubtful). He therefore had heard the information. Whether he heard it from Christians or someone else is anyone's guess. (pp. 55–56)

Oops , caught you trying to equivocate. The belief of biblical Jesus died is just halfway between us. You believed that he was resurrected (with no evidence) whereas we muslims believe that he did not die but saved by the grace of God , the biblical passages that you are too scared to respond to.

Like I stated , Prof Ehrman stated that by reading the books of the gospels side by side we can see the evolution of biblical Jesus from just a man in Mark to some sort of divine man in John. However you in your copy paste tried to twist the issue to be '..the Gospel of John … goes a long way toward identifying Jesus himself as divine..'. Ha ha , why are you trying to lie your way thru?

Appears that you don't have any response to the biblical passages that biblical Jesus did not die and was not resurrected. What is the difference between the resurrection of biblical Jesus and the resurrection at the end of times? Still no answer? As usual - hoping for the issue to fade away ...

Pssst ..... haven't you heard of Prof Bart Ehrman till today?

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 18-12-2012 10:19 AM
On the issue of Biblical God also "deceived" ?? Didn't i reply this serpent already in my previous t ...

On the issue of Biblical God also "deceived" ?? Didn't i reply this serpent already in my previous thread, obviously he is suffering from advance stage of Alzheimer......poor thing .

The point is that your biblical God lied and you have no problems about it in addition to you justifying why your biblical God lied. However you have a problem when Allah deceived the would be killers of Prophet Isa(as) in order to save his messenger.

This exemplifies your inconsistency and lack of standard in your argument. Inconsistency is a sign of failure. You have failed in your argument. You are just frothing in your mouth , thats about it.

wkk5159

When someone has been deeply embarrassed by his lack of aptitude, he resorts to defame others by calling them rabid.......truly pathetic !

sam1528

wkk5159 posted on 18-12-2012 03:52 PM
When someone has been deeply embarrassed by his lack of aptitude, he resorts to defame others by cal ...

When someone has been deeply embarrassed by his lack of aptitude, he resorts to defame others by calling them rabid.......truly pathetic !

Why are you going sideways and not addressing the issues? No answers?

- can you address Prof Ehrman's claim that the bible contain lies?
- can you explain why you claim that the resurrection of biblical Jesus is different from the resurrection at judgement day?
- why are you so inconsistent that you are ok with the biblical God lying but have a problem when Allah deceived the would be killers of Prophet Isa(as) in order to save Allah's messenger?
- can you challenge the biblical verses quoted that carries the meaning of biblical Jesus escaped crucifixion and biblical Jesus did not die and not resurrected?

Going to and fro in non arguments and hoping that the issues would fade away is the action of a person whose mouth is frothing.You actually have nothing