Matthew 5:20

barney50

1. responded by sparrow: This is not what Jesus would do. If you look at how He came, an how He walked His life on earth.. Jesus is NOT proud and arrogant.. but instead He came in humbleness and meekness. Though it is true that He is God - it is not His nature to make such arrogant statements.
   
2. And God  does not compel or force anyone to worship Him - forcing man to worship Him is not the nature of our Christian God. He wants us to worship Him willingly. Even when you look at what God said in the Old Testament -though He said, is I am the Lord Thy God.. and notice this is when He spoke directly from Heaven, when He gave the ten commandments. And even then, God did NOT say.. "Worship Me." God only told the people that they shalt not have other gods.. He did not compel or force people to worship Him.

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Are you sure of that? But this verse from John 2:15 show he was arrogant and showed his anger.

2:15. And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen: and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew.

I GOD did not compel nor was it written in the bible than why did the Sapnish soldiers killed innocent native Indian tribes of South America for refusing to convert to Christianity? Was it their own doing or the ordr of the Church. May be you need to study historical facts before you comment of this subject.

sparrow

Originally posted by barney50 at 19-7-2006 12:00 PM
I GOD did not compel nor was it written in the bible than why did the Sapnish soldiers killed innocent native Indian tribes of South America for refusing to convert to Christianity? Was it their own doing or the ordr of the Church. May be you need to study historical facts before you comment of this subject.
...

Soldiers killing ppl is a human doing. Just because someone did it (on their own thinking)... it does not mean that is God's command. God never called us to kill in order to convert ppl. It is not God's fault if human killed.

2:15. And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen: and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew.

Read the background of the story instead of just picking out the verse. Jesus did it becase these ppl were treating the temple (which is a place to worship God) like a market place. Of course He was angry with them...
(Say, even if it happens today - say, someone treats a church, or a temple, or a mosque like a market place.. the pastors/ulama/religious leaders would also be angry, won't they? Won't they be doing the same thing - chase these ppl out too? It's just a rational thing to do.. you don't, and you are not supposed to use a religious place of worship for such things.. You see, if we, as humans and only followers of religion, feel angry...  what more with Jesus, when  is God Himself - of course He has every right to be angry...

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 19-7-2006 12:28 PM ]

barney50

sparrow,

But they did it in the name of their religion. So who takes the blame? Did the Church apologised to these natives who lost their loved ones for the wrong doing of its followers? I do not think so. The early Christians committed atrocities against pagans in Europe and else where. It did not reflect what Jesus had thought.  So,  the Christian clergies had to be blamed uh!?.. But it's too late,  many a thousands have lost their lives to appease Chriatianity.

sparrow

Originally posted by barney50 at 19-7-2006 12:21 PM
sparrow,

But they did it in the name of their religion. So who takes the blame? Did the Church apologised to these natives who lost their loved ones for the wrong doing of its followers? I do no ...

Don't equate Christian believers with God. God is God.. the church is the church.. and the church is not God.Well.. blame it on the believers.. blame it on the church.. but that does not mean that God should take the blame as well. As far as God is concerned - He is holy.. and He do not condone such doings.
If human do not follow God's teachings - that's human's fault.

But yes - it's sad.. it's very sad that there are people who have brought shame to God's glory, and tarnishes the name of God through such doings. In other words.. these people are quoting God's name in vain.. and misuses His Holy name.. you can't blame God for what human do..
(say, if i post something here, and i say i'm doing it in the name of Hindu.. or in the name of Barney.. it doesn't mean that you are to be blamed, right?)

barney50

sparroh,

So  in lay man's term it is people who with vested interest have misinterpreted the scriptures for their gain. That is all I want to know.

sparrow

Originally posted by barney50 at 19-7-2006 12:44 PM
sparroh,

So  in lay man's term it is people who with vested interest have misinterpreted the scriptures for their gain. That is all I want to know.

well.. since such teachings (to kill in the name of God) are not even in the Scriptures - i'm can't see how they could have misinterpreted the scriptures.. perhaps their thinking comes from somewhere other than the scriptures.. well, as far as i believe, they are accountable to God their deeds at the end of the day...

*p/s: sparrow is spelt with a 'w'.. not 'h'..

barney50

sparrow,

Sorry, it is due to fast typing of the keys. I always miss and only able to correct if attentive. Anyway I do not believe so. As far as I understand GOD is only an observer and not a tyrant who would punish you for your bad deeds here on earth. I believe such people would be born again here to pay the price of their past action. We are wittnessing such in our lifetime and a lesson to be learned from it.

sparrow

Originally posted by barney50 at 19-7-2006 12:58 PM
sparrow,

Sorry, it is due to fast typing of the keys. I always miss and only able to correct if attentive. Anyway I do not believe so. As far as I understand GOD is only an observer and not a ty ...

hehe.. okay.. typo errors are always excusable..

God is not a tyrant - that's true. I agree with you on that too. But then, in Christianity, we believe that God is not only an observer. He does interact with us in our lives.. and God does judge - yes.
Well - Christians do not share the same belief that you do of being born again here on earth. What we believe is that.. when our life is over, we will go to meet God.. and He will judge us, and reward and/or punish us for what we did here on earth..

barney50

sparrow,

That I do understand of your religion but how do you explain some undergo suffering while others  have all their needs taken care? Children born retarded to parents who are holy and kind. Good parents lost teenage daughter or son in an accident. Limbless man begs on the street for food by draging his butt on floor and sorry sight to see. Child born to counple with a tumour attachedto the head as big as two footballs.  Son kills mother over a dispute or a father kills son while reversing his car. You have seen or read all these news in the papers or happens everyday in your home town. Can you explain why and who is responssible for such cases?

Answering on behalf of christians. Take a look at the prophet Job. dude was a rich, righteous and a man who fears God, all in all he's truly blessed. but God insisted on testing him. first up, his servants was killed and his oxens and donkeys were taken away, secondly a fire from heaven consumed his sheeps and servants as well, thirdly a raiding party carried away his camels and killing more of his servants. and fourthly a wind blew down his house killing his family. despite these incidents he did not give up. instead he shaved himself and began praying to god and did not blame a single thing to God.

but that's not the end, again God tested job with sores and skin disease. his wife persuaded him to curse god and just die, but he did not. instead he said that God does tries those he loves so that they could grow spiritually but mankind are too foolish to understand so. Job's enduring pain and suffering ended soon after that because heard him and acknowledge his righteousness and his faith. god blessed with twice of what he had before and blessed him with a happy and holy life.

what barney50 pointed out is something that christians (or maybe most of us) consider as trials and tribulation so that we could grow spiritually. and uncle Job has set an example for us. and i'm sure God would not give us trials that are impossible to overcome. as they always say, with sufficient faith, anything is possible

[ Last edited by  weedkiller at 19-7-2006 11:31 PM ]

barney50

weedkiller.

That is what Christians and even Muslims are suppose to believe coz they do not believe in Karma [ good or bad ]. But it's funny when Christians believe in original sin blaming it on Adam and Eve. In another words shift your bad deeds to original sin and all will be right. Why would a GOD who has all the power wanst to assure HIMSELF if man is faithful to HIM. Is GOD so weak that HE has to test HIS own creation? Man with all that mambo jumbo still fail to understand the simple word "freewill". When Christians and Muslims believe that GOD has given us freewill yet when soemthing goes wrong they just close their mind and say its a test from GOD. Is it not illogical when knowing very well that whatever happens to us is our own doing and nothing to do with GOD?

Why would GOD want to test your faith? HE is the all knower and knows if you believe HIM or not so there is no reason for HIM to test you. It is man who fails to realize that the soul in him is imortal and takes on birth after birth in order to fulfill his destination. Jesus's destination was to become a reformer of his faith and die in the hands of the Romans. It is as simple as ABCD. He did not die for mankind, he died because his people did not believe in his way of reform and for that he was punished. Why do Christians shift their burden to GOD or Jesus s very simple coz they have yet to realize the real truth of their existence and their duty on earth. So, when they are faced with material problems or disater in their family instead of taking blame on themself they blame it on GOD. Remember that GOD is only a wittness and observer to all that is happening in this world. Otherwise Jesus would not say those who live by the sword would die by the sword. Christians can't even understand this simple parabblle yet claim to know everything about GOD and HIS creation. Get real guys!....

I think Barney is on the right track but I think he is too much bound to time and space.
This has accumulated for himself with lots of complaints... Sorry out of topic a bit.

Continue from Eastrun, I think he is looking for a bold standing statement.
Since this is a matter of principle, there has to be a bold clear statement
such as "I am God, worship me" like " I am the PM of Malaysia, let's work with me to...:"

If I can ask, when Jesus was still alive and when he implied (if this is true) that he is GOD,
when people bowed to him was actually they are worshipping the Father or Holy Spirit incarnated in him?
I have no conclusion on this but just for info.

sparrow

Originally posted by pooja_1 at 20-7-2006 03:23 PM
If I can ask, when Jesus was still alive and when he implied (if this is true) that he is GOD,
when people bowed to him was actually they are worshipping the Father or Holy Spirit incarnated in him?

The people who worshipped Jesus actually knew that He is the Son of God. They are worshipping Jesus. Not the Father above, nor the Holy Spirit. It is not God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit which is incarnated. It is God-the Son.. and this is who Jesus is.

[ Last edited by  sparrow at 20-7-2006 03:50 PM ]

sparrow

Originally posted by pooja_1 at 20-7-2006 03:23 PM
I think Barney is on the right track but I think he is too much bound to time and space.

Barney is on the right track? lol.. this thread is called Matthew 5:20!! His discussion, or even Eastrun's discussions on whether Jesus said that He is God..have actually nothing to do with Matthew 5:20.

But, i guess, it doesn't matter anymore which direction you guys blow this discussion to. This whole thread is already blown offcourse anyway. The original topic was Matthew 5:20, which has absolutely nothing to do with whether Jesus said He is God or not. (and suffice to say, out of the 5 pages in this thread, only the first 16 posts are related to Matthew 5:20.. (and that's only like two-thirds of a page!) LOL..

sparrow

[size=-1]Wow weedkiller. Sometimes i'm really amazed at how much you know about Christianity..

Well, Barney, this question arises because we share a different view on the purpose of  life itself..

I'm not sure what is the Hindu belief regarding the purpose of your life (ie, the purpose of why God created you, or why you are here on this earth.). Well, it's not fair for me to make any statements here regarding your faith.. so i'll just stick to explaining how Christians view life...

Christians believe that all things are created for the glory of God. God should be the centre of our lives. The main purpose of our lives is to honor and glorify God, and to walk a life close to God.
But although God created us for a purpose

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 18-7-2006 07:12 PM


That's exactly what Jesus said: Jesus said.. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.. Who was satan tempting? Jesus. So who does 'the Lord thy God' refers to? Jesus.  In other words, He was sayi ...

What was Jesus said...the Lord thy God... not ME, THY GOD.THE LORD...doesn't meant Jesus himself as Lord.Who Jesus referred to?..Not himself..he never said that, but he THE LORD is God, not him. HE DIDN'T SAY THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT ME...NO!!.

sparrow

okay.. what about the rest? why did Jesus say He exists even before Abraham? And also David?

sparrow

what about Jesus saying that the Pharisees worship Him? Your Prophet (in the Muslim sense) is lying?

eastrun

Originally posted by sparrow at 18-7-2006 07:12 PM


That's exactly what Jesus said: Jesus said.. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.. Who was satan tempting? Jesus. So who does 'the Lord thy God' refers to? Jesus.  In other words, He was sayi ...

What was Jesus said...the Lord thy God... not ME, THY GOD.THE LORD...doesn't meant Jesus himself as Lord.Who Jesus referred to?..Not himself..he never said that, but he THE LORD is God, not him. HE DIDN'T SAY THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT ME...NO!!.


About the second quote, about his existence before Abraham...Jesus was talking in Hebrew and in Hebrew no past tense and present tense, so you cannot use that to support your opinion. If you read the John chapter 14 from verse 1, you will see series of misunderstoods from those Jews. So, Jesus loved to talk something spiritually that hard for those Jews to understand. When he say he existed before Abraham, it can be his teaching...or something spiritually, but not himself, even though he claimed 'I AM, I AM".

I didn't say Jesus is lying. I said maybe Jesus is saying like that to save himself. In that kind of position, you are not considered lying, but saving your life. I didn't uttered/wrote word LYING....So, don't got me wrong.

Thomas said MY LORD AND MY GOD, but he didn't say MY LORD IS MY GOD. When he said MY LORD and MY GOD, it can be he 'memuji' Jesus and God, but not claimed that Jesus is God.It is just like 'selawat' upon Muhammad in Islam.


Word "I AM GOD AND WORSHIP ME" is an arrogant statement?. It is an HONEST yet CLEAR statement. God is Almighty and He can say anything He want even though you claimed what he said is arrogant. Of course Jesus cannot say such word, because he is not God..because if  he is God, he shouldn't be ashamed to say that statement and he should not go far away just to explain a simple thing(claiming that he is God) to the Jews

He never claimed he is God, but you and those Christians ASSUMED that he is God. He never asked you to WORSHIP him (Once again, if he is God, you cannot consider him as an arrogant man for saying such statement). But what he said many - many times:

Mark 12:29, Deutronomy 6:4,Deutronomy 4:35 and etc. He never said he Is God, but you guys assuming he is.

For that kind of behaviour, Quran has an commentary:

But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do." (Surah Yunus (Jonah)10:36)

Thanks...:pray:

Since I am working now, so I only able to reply your post at least once a day or once in 2days.Hope you understand when I reply you late..

[ Last edited by  eastrun at 20-7-2006 07:07 PM ]

sparrow

How did King David call Jesus, Lord?
King David lived generations before Jesus. How did David call Jesus, Lord, then Jesus has not even come into the world yet?

Below are the exact words of Jesus.. and note that there is no reason to believe that Jesus was not talking abut Himself. Because Jesus did mention Christ - and the son of David.. and David call Him Lord.

Matthew 22:41-44
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
      "The son of David," they replied.
43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
   until I put your enemies
      under your feet." '
45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"