Predetermination VS Freedom of Will?

hamizao

Whenever a calamity takes place we sooth the party concerned by saying it is God's will. We blame it all on Good's will or takdir. How would you then explain freedom of will? let's discuss.

seribulan

Can I say at one instance it's a bit like the road not taken...you are given two junctions in front of you...your will shall determine which one you shall choose...if there is calamity there...you have chosen your own destiny...

thamrong

An interesting philosophical discourse...got to dig up a little bit.

hamizao

Can I say at one instance it's a bit like the road not taken...you are given two junctions in front of you...your will shall determine which one you shall choose...if there is calamity there...you hav ...
seribulan Post at 18-7-2009 19:36

Yes, I have always believe, in making a decision, you need to have knowledge of the subject matter. We do not necessarily have full knowledge of everything. If the subject matter involves another person, again it will be subject to that person's choices and decisions and this will certainly add to the lack of knowledge you may have. So, is it fair to blame God's will should there be a problem thereafter. Or is it just a mental thing? Instead of blaming yourself for the disaster....blame God. It makes you feel better so that you may raise up and move on?

ZamZamAlaKazam

...predetermination is rooted in the view that natural world is preordained, ie its law is fixed and cannot be changed, to the extent that chaos is also an orderly manifestation.
It is easier if our live, ie destiny, is also fixed and following the path that has been set up for us is as natural as the movement of planets.  Thus, we are just here living our lives.  Question is how do we live our lives have any bearing on how others live theirs?
Free will is just your freedom to choose your own destiny.  We cannot see the future, thus we use the past and present to set our own future...

...blaming others is easy...

Personally, my free will is a gift from God.  I don't see any distinction between free will and "akal".  It is my amanah and I've to be true to it.  I think that is my fate...

thamrong

IMHO I try to avoid getting into the mental trapping of rigid fixation of everything is preordained by god. Yes I believe in the divine disposition but God the all benevolence and all merciful  let it been known to us that there is a caveat. The message is very clear "Aku tak akan mengubah...melainkan kamu sendiri berusha...". Human existence must be looked from the perspective of subjectivity not objectivity. We are not a cold bolder sitting on the fringe of the mighty mountain but a conscious being......thus we strive to struggle to determine the path of our choice ...this is my take.(",)

pendakwa

Yes, I have always believe, in making a decision, you need to have knowledge of the subject matter. We do not necessarily have full knowledge of everything. If the subject matter involves another  ...
hamizao Post at 19-7-2009 00:48

Yes i do agree with freedom of will or choices that human being have. Those choices are base on self imagination, independent will, conscience and pro activity. While human being are free to choose the decision, the consequences of the choice is absolutely against human control, although we can almost anticipate the consequences. Again, is  subject of freedom of choice.

ajinomotonosuga

human propose but god decide. so we need to learn 'to accept'

rezki secupak takkan jadi segantang.

to me answer is yes OR no.

u kene tenguk situation so the need of 'thinking'

sebab kita TAK TAHU, Allah Maha Mengetahui

so u just do it the best u can, then u learn to accept 'takdir'. everything is takdir, kita bernafas setiap saat pun takdir, u have the choice untuk tidak bernafas, u tahan nafas sampai mati, that is YOUR CHOICE.

dalam quran specifically tuhan mention, MANUSIA DAN DJINN dijadikan untuk beribadat padaku.

to me dalam semua kejadian tuhan, ada 2 kejadian ada DAYA untuk 'derhaka' or tidak taat perintahNYA yakni manusia dan djinn.

maksudnya ada possibility , di bolehkan dengan daya dan kemahuan masing2 untuk derhaka.

and yet tuhan jugak kata, cuma DIA saja yang tentukan sapa sesat dan sapa dapat hidayahNYA.

so kalo ada manusia dan djinn berusaha kuat macam mana ingin beriman, lurus dan dapat hidayah tapi tuhan kata NO..so tak dapat lah.

so we learn we need to more communicate with Allah swt, minta ampun dan belas kasihan, mintak selamat dunia akhirat, mintak di matikan dalam golongan manusia beriman

tak boleh putus asa and say tak guna aku solat puasa pegi haji seme tu sebab aku ni jahat tentu Allah tak mo ampunkan aku. Selagi tidak menyegutukanNYA , God Willing (insyallah) bisa di ampunkan semua kesalahan dan mati dengan jiwa tenang (selamat).

seem like oang islam ni bukan jenis mudah putus asa, jatuh kene bangun, jatuh kene bangun selagi berdaya dan teruskan hidup dan harapan

pendakwa

8# ajinomotonosuga

Bercakap soal takdir, ada sesuatu that i would require your input + views. Harap forumer sini semua membantu tentang maksud dan falsafah pemahaman dari segi takdir.

Begini - Seorang anak dilahirkan cacat dan seorang lagi tidak. Bagaimana kita relate kan benda itu sebagai takdir. Sekiranya takdir menentukan anak yg dilahirkan cacat, tidakkah dari sudut logik akal mengatakan sesungguhnya tidak berlaku keadilan didalam proses pembikinan sedangkan dari Quran terang-terang mengatakan konsep keadilan ilahi...

ajinomotonosuga

8# ajinomotonosuga

Bercakap soal takdir, ada sesuatu that i would require your input + views. Harap forumer sini semua membantu tentang maksud dan falsafah pemahaman dari segi takdir.

Begini - ...
pendakwa Post at 19-7-2009 18:54

adil to me maksud meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya..i .e soal FUNGSI

alat dan fungsinya kalo sepadan, baru berjalan keadilan

misal pisau untuk memotong, kalo u buat untuk gergaji..berlaku ketidak adilan. kalo isteri untuk berteman bergurau u buat dia punchbag mendera dan pukul so berlaku ketidak adilan

bila berlaku ketidak adilan ada chain reaction berlaku kezaliman, kemusnahan dan macam2 negatif..asalnya sebab tiada keadilan

justice dari word just..cukup2..tak lebih tak kurang, fit , sesuai, balanced (this is my choice of word i.e. BALANCED)

kalo seme yang lahir tu perfect sempurna, tiada susah, tiada sengsara, tiada duka nestapa, sesuai dengan sifat pengasih peyayang Allah swt.. dimana lojik 'balanced' bila panas u baru tau kepentingan sejuk? bila sakit baru u tau kepentingan sihat? bila gemok baru u tau kepentingan kurus?

pada yang cacat ada hak depa dalam kalangan yang sihat. seperti pada yang yatim piatu ada hak depa di kalangan yang masih beribu bapa. Soang di lahirkan cacat, soang lagi di lahirkan sempurna..baru ada 'pergeseran' minda, kesedaran, pengkajian, baru hidup pengetahuan soal alat dan fungsi.

pendapat saya..manusia sempurna selalu UNDERESTIMATE keupayaan diri sempurna mereka. Malah mereka 'dimalukan' oleh mereka yang kurang sempurna tentang 'how to cherish life'. Ada yang buta pekak dan bisu tapi lebih happy dengan hidup berbanding yang sihat tapi jiwa tak penah tenang dengan hidup depa..kan?

so yang sempurna wajar kembalikan HAK mereka yang tidak sempurna misal bagian anak2 yatim dengan cara bersihkan harta melalui zakat , banyakkan bersedekah pada badan amal misal nya...dan ini sekarang di buat oleh orang2 bukan islam macam the late Anita Roddick, pengasas Body Shop, beratus juta harta warisan dia , di sedekahkan semuaaaaaa nya pada badan amal, atau usaha2 philantrophist barat sekarang ni kalo kita lihat, apa sebenar depa lakukan? kalo tak 'being Just' ie. justice, mahu berlaku adil.

manusia cuma btul2 happy bila dia berlaku ADIL. baru dia rasa ketenangan jiwa. baru real happiness.
bukan happy pegi holiday, happy pegi shopping..to me these activities sebenarnya mencari happiness..i.e. mencari macam mana nak berlaku adil

bila yang naik kereta hormati yang naik motor
bila yang naik motor hormati yang naik basikal
bila yang naik basikal hormati yang jalan kaki
bila yang jalan kaki hormati yang merangkak rangkak

only then baru ada keadilan.

yang sihat bertanggungjawap pada yang sakit, yang besar bertanggungjawap pada yang kecil, yang berkuasa bertanggungjawap pada yang tiada or kurang kuasa. baru ada keadilan.

berlaku adil pada diri sendiri dulu misalnya. U sihat , sempurna, u pegi isap rokok, u sedut karbon monoksid dan semua bahan kimia beracun sumbat masuk ke badan u. Is this keadilan? are u being just to ur body?
cuba saya sumbat pasir ke dalam tangki kereta awak atau saya sumbat minyak kelapa ke dalam radioator kereta awak? Is that being just? Awak marah tak?

and yet what have become to SMOKING in this modern era? bila tiada keadilan, maka lahir kezaliman, u zalimi diri sendiri dengan isap rokok. How can u talk about being just and justice sedangkan u tengah isap rokok? How can u talk about keadilan dan kerajaan rasuah sedangkan u dulu bersama kerajaan rasuah?:kant:

so u kene elak being sentimental dalam isu cam ni..direct to the point of apa itu adil.

my-alja

wow ajik.....gud one

this is real aji that i know!

hamizao

Yes i do agree with freedom of will or choices that human being have. Those choices are base on self imagination, independent will, conscience and pro activity. While human being are free to choos ...
pendakwa Post at 19-7-2009 13:16

Granted that man does not have foreknowledge of his destiny but in some belief systems God does and in yet some other belief system God determines it. Now, if we believe that man has free will to  his own destiny and hence capable of activating all it takes to achieve it, if he still fails to achieve it , he would say that it is God's will. This somehow implies that God's will supersedes.

ajinomotonosuga

Granted that man does not have foreknowledge of his destiny but in some belief systems God does and in yet some other belief system God determines it. Now, if we believe that man has free will to  ...
hamizao Post at 20-7-2009 00:59

adakah sama freedom of will and freedom of choices?

the will to live pada saya bukan a choice. It is AN INSTINCT. Nietze's will to power di sandar dari Schopenhauer's will to live

saya mudahkan dengan term 'survival instinct'

rasa takut or fear to me ialah salah satu pekej survival. tanpa rasa takut, mungkin spesis manusia or paling tidak puak or kaum tertentu itu musnah dan tiada penyambung.

lagi satu soal ABILITY. to constitute a demand, selain willingness kene ada ability jugak. Merely willing to buy but u tak mampu or able (melalui purchasing power i.e. money) situasi itu tak boleh term as demand melainkan wishy washy saja lah.

u knew u are unable to carry the task, not up to the standard or benchmark..then what choices do u have? the only choices u have are the one that FIT and deemed suitable to ur standard. bila u langgar condition ni what happened? INJUSTICE or ketidak adilan lah..betul tak?

yessss..ada 'doktor palsu' bergerak dalam hospital kerajaan DAN dia berjaya obat or maybe bedah some patients and the same goes to lot of CON MAN out there in real world jugak.

choices are KNOWLEDGE, while willingness is the calling for ABILITY, to move, take action, perbuatan, amalan i.e. motivation

freedom of choices - the many knowledge, know hows, available at any time in any situation

freedom of will - the motivation to reach goal or objective i.e.  maximising satisfaction

how strong is ur motivation fulfilling ur objective? Initially, what is ur objective? what is ur goal? ur aim? ur target?

u have an objective or goal but say that there are lack of choices, so u need to create one i.e creativity.
Along the way to reach ur goal, u maybe unwittingly creating new choices, new dimension, new frontier, new ideas.

freedom of will is not freedom of choice.

those who lack of will, would they have plenty choices? these are the pessimist, work from the angle of scarcity

but those with strong willingness, there will be 'a way', and this is a choice. It will appear from the 'sea of knowledge (plenty choices)'

i do not believe human being is lazy , but i believed they are LESS MOTIVATED or de-motivated by cultures (human values).

the will to live, the will to power, the will to pursue excellence, the will to become rich....the will to have family

they are all called for motivational effort.

Boleh jadi dengan ada bangunan KLCC, jambatan terpanjang dan lebuh raya canggih dan banyak 'keajaiban' pembangunan, society malaysia IS WILLING TO WORK HARDER in pursuit of Malaysia Gemilang. (realisation of objectives i.e. success, Malaysia Boleh)

But instead society jadi pesimis dan cerita pasal pembaziran, rasuah, oang mati bunuh diri , berdemonstrasi dan sekadar MERASAI HARAPAN keadilan tetapi tiada berlaku realiti keadilan, yang terbukti dengan kisah jenayah bertambahan dan banyak kemusnahan dan kezaliman dalam masarakat kini.

pendakwa

adil to me maksud meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya..i .e soal FUNGSI

alat dan fungsinya kalo sepadan, baru berjalan keadilan

misal pisau untuk memotong, kalo u buat untuk gergaji..berlaku k ...
ajinomotonosuga Post at 19-7-2009 19:25

Tq for your views. A good one indeed.
Bagaimana mungkin seorang yg cacat sejak dari lahir punyai pandangan yangpositif terhadap ilahi terhadap org yg sempurna? Kalau mungkin simiskin itumasih punya harapan untuk berusaha, yg gemuk punyai pilihan untuk berdiet, ygmenggunakan basikal, punyai kekuatan untuk mencari rezeki dan sbgnyai, apakahberlaku keadilan apabila seseorang dilahirkan cacat dan tidak berupayamemperbetulkan keadaan dirinya sendiri lalu menggangap takdir dan ketentuanserta keadilan ilahi, namun naluri membuak2 masih tidak dapat menerima konsepkeadilan dari logik akal
Harap Tuan Aji beri sedikit komentarnya..

pendakwa

13# ajinomotonosuga

The will to live to me is still a choice. You can choose tobe that way or the other. The rest are only supporting factors in deciding yourown destiny. The benchmark or a standard in a person who is unable to carry acertain task is only a question of “does he have a choice”. The answer is “yes”.He can choose to lift or not to lift with the consequences that he has about toface. Consequences are natural law that governs in choices that he selects.
Choices that we made normally base on reality instead ofvalue. Reality is the way as it is, while values are they way things should be.While reality keep on blaming condition and conditioning, values often carrylots of weight on self awareness, the ability to think our very own thoughtprocess. This will create what we call paradigm shift. When we said I’mwillingly to accept the offer, initially that cover our mind is we choose toaccept after an analysis being made base on reality as well as values.
Freedom of will is still freedom to choose. The lack ofwill, obviously does not create choices, but creates excuses and yet it isstill a choice to make excuses.

ajinomotonosuga

13# ajinomotonosuga

The will to live to me is still a choice. You can choose tobe that way or the other. The rest are only supporting factors in deciding yourown destiny. The benchmark or a stand ...
pendakwa Post at 20-7-2009 13:07

freedom to choose is freedom of choices

do not misundertood it with freedom of will

the use of word freedom  in this term 'will to live' is intriguing

as i mentioned earlier, basically it is an instinct. u have willingness and maybe live in a society full of choices i.e. democratic or capitalistic one

u have willingness and maybe professed christianity ie roman catholic so there are choices within roman catholic compared to other religions

as u can see 'religion' gives ORDER in a chaotic life in this world. i will elaborate further regarding ur query.

ajinomotonosuga

Tq for your views. A good one indeed.
Bagaimana mungkin seorang yg cacat sejak dari lahir punyai pandangan yangpositif terhadap ilahi terhadap org yg sempurna? Kalau mungkin simiskin itumasih pu ...
pendakwa Post at 20-7-2009 11:42

Bagaimana mungkin seorang yg cacat sejak dari lahir punyai pandanganyangpositif terhadap ilahi terhadap org yg sempurna? Kalau mungkinsimiskin itumasih punya harapan untuk berusaha, yg gemuk punyai pilihanuntuk berdiet, ygmenggunakan basikal, punyai kekuatan untuk mencarirezeki dan sbgnyai, apakahberlaku keadilan apabila seseorang dilahirkancacat dan tidak berupayamemperbetulkan keadaan dirinya sendiri lalumenggangap takdir dan ketentuanserta keadilan ilahi, namun nalurimembuak2 masih tidak dapat menerima konsepkeadilan dari logik akal.


- u are asking about PHYSICAL ABILITIES, but u lupa satu pekara non physical contoh macam MINDA. U kenal Professor Stephen Hawking?

untuk elaborate soalan tu saya suka kaitkan nama Victor Frankly, pengasa Logotherapy.

manusia cacat yang awak sebut itu, saya misalkan soang yang sempurna tubuh badan tetapi DI PENJARAKAN. What can he do? dia kene penjara, dunia empat pejuru semua tembok tinggi, cuma satu tingkap kecil untuk lihat dunia luar. Apa dia boleh buat? Ada tubuh sempurna tapi tak boleh berbakti apa pun? Apa beza dia dan soang yang lahir bebas ke dunia, idup dalam society demokrasi tetapi cacat seluruh anggota, terbaring lumpuh sejak lahir di katil sampai tua, apa dia boleh buat? Kecuali otak dia tak boleh pakai misal 'brain damaged', manusia begini tetap masih 'sempurna' dari sudut pemikiran. Seorang yang Islam, dalam keadaan sakit macam mana tak larat nak gerak apa pun boleh sembahyang hanya mengerakkan kelopak mata dan kalau itu pun tidak mampu, kenapa tidak sembahyang 'dalam pemikiran'? (bukan untuk yang lahirnya sudah sakit lumpuh)

apa saya maksudkan ialah freedom to choose macam apa di perkatakan oleh Victor Frankly. Dia bekas tawanan Nazi, di Austwitz, dia tenguk ramai succumb to despair lalu mati seolah sudah mati 'the will to live'. Yang buat dia hidup kata dia ialah dia masih ada kertas kerja yang belum siap, dia professor di Venice masa perang. So pendekkan cite, if u ada OBJECTIVE in life dan u dipenjara tubuh badan baik oleh kesakitan macam profesor stephen hawking atau di penjara dalam lokap macam Mandella, selagi pemikiran u or minda u masih normal or otak u tak damaged dan boleh berfikir, u masih ada kebebasan memilih untuk terus hidup. Nothing stop u to think such way.

Pemikiran yang terpenjara lebih bahaya dari penjara tubuh badan , baik oleh sakit or penjara lokap. Freedom to choose misal nya soal LIBERTE sewajar di kaitkan dengan soal respon abilities or responsibility. Orang cacat tidak di bebankan even amal ibadat khusus macam solat haji puasa semua tuh, mereka malah 'bersih' macam bayi di lahirkan. Contoh soang manusia yang sejak lahir ada cerebral palsy. Otak dia damaged to control muscles, adil ke kita bebankan dia tanggungjawap? Bukan ke dari penyakit or kesakitan dia orang lain boleh menerima munafaat tertentu, obat dan discoveries di temui untuk preventive measures being taken? Dari 'misfortune' dia manusia lain lebih fortunate? Kenapa kita tak boleh kata mereka ini ORANG ORANG TERPILIH oleh tuhan , sebab ujian kesakitan tersebut?

pada saya hanya bila MATI baru terputus amalan. Manusia yang kene stroke or comatose masih boleh mendengar tapi tak boleh RESPONSE (responsibility). So tiada alasan tiada freedom to choose kecuali bila dah mati, putus segalanya kecuali 3 pekara macam nabi bersabda.

i hope sikit banyak those above dapat illuminate u about freedom to choose and freewill. wsalam.

digitalgunner

Sume org tulis english...aku x pandai sgt tp nk share gak opinion aku...dlm BM ar senang...nnt belit2 english point x tersampai lak...huhuhu...

Bagi aku...hal ni mcm dlm rukun Iman kita...percaya pada qada' & qadar...bile ape2 dah jadik...sume pun ckp itu kehendak Tuhan walhal ape yg berlaku kita sendiri yg buat...so cm ne nk ckp menda nye Predetermination VS Freedom of Will?

Sebagai seorang programmer...view aku mcm ni...setiap ape yg berlaku dlm hidup kita mmg dah ditetapkan...sama mcm seorg programmer bile dia design system and wat development...every if else statement awal2 dah ditentukan...n mcm dlm program computer...tiap2 decision yg kita amek...boleh ubah outcome yg terjadi...same goes with our life la...kita sentiasa ada pilihan dlm hidup kita...n tiap2 pilihan yg kita amek akan bawak kita ke outcome yg sendiri...kalo programmer boleh buat system yg complicated dgn byk if-else statement ape sume...aku bg contoh main game la...org yg develop game tu dah awal2 design sytem dia kalo kita buat A lead to B or kalo pilih C lead to D...ape2 hal sume tu dah ditentukn during design phase lg...bile org men game plak...org tu decide sendiri ape dia nk buat based on availability option yg ditawarkan...so kt sini kita bley ckp...life ni combination of both...segala2 mmg dah ditentukan tp end result dia plak adalah bergantung dgn decision yg kita buat...

Sesungguhnya Tuhan lg Maha Pencipta dan mampu merancang jauh lebih baik dr kita ni manusia...even smallest details sebenarnye dlm hidup kita dah ditentukn dia nye outcome tapi semua nye terserah kepada manusia utk buat pilihan...as Moslem...aku percaya tu sume...sbb tu Allah berfirman dlm Surah arRad ayat 11 yg bermaksud "Sesungguhnya Allah tidak mengubah apa yang ada pada sesuatu kaum sehingga mereka mengubah apa yang ada pada diri mereka sendiri."...tp skrg ni bkn dlm bod Agama so sebagai menghormati forumer lain yg bkn Islam aku x nk elaborate menggunakan dalil ni...lebey kurang nye mcm tu la aku nye fahaman bile kita sebut "Predetermination VS Freedom of Will?"

pendakwa

17# ajinomotonosuga

I have read about Victor Frankl with his book called the Last of Human Freedom, kalau tak silap.
I guess you got your point in detail elaboration PD vs FOW.
But this is slightly off topic if MOD kasi can kita discuss kat sini. Im talking about it;s a total NO CHOICE SITUATION.
I was born handicap, and the other was born perfect. We have everything in common, same IQ, same EQ except I'm handicap. Now, how can we relate this situation dlm bentuk keadilan.Do you think that God is fair? I mean i'm not trying to provoke the almighty punya unfairness, but just a little question since a friend of mine is creating a situation where god had also create injustice.

my-alja

ermmm...makin komplikated

cemana dgn permulaan quote.....we do the best and GOD does the rest

i rasa simple kalo kita pilih apa yg kita nak buat, buat yg terbaik....syarat terbaik nie
dgn segala akal dan sumber yg dikurniakan olehNYA.....dan takdir(KESUDAHAN) tu nanti masih ditangan NYA
cuma kita tertinggal perkataan TAWAKAL kat sini.......

kita pilih, kita usaha sebaik mungkin......TAWAKAL....dan akhirnya TAKDIR!
so pd sesapa yg bole salahkan tuhan selepas dia buat sebaik mungkin
dia blom lulus subjek tawakal dlm hidup lah kot....

freedom of will tagged along wt freedom of choice...for me lah...
katalah, kita pilih nak ronda dunia dgn basikal.....tu pilihan
will tu nanti, yg bagi spiritual input to make the choice or dream come true