AwgSagi posted on 16-5-2013 04:18 AM
I share 1 teaching in islam, on my own words: when choosing a leader to lead in BATTLE, a pious-man- ...
Are you stupid? Do you even know the Art of Warfare?
The purpose of War is to kill the enemy - and that is done by sending Young Men and women into battle where they can be killed. These fools will not follow someone who is happy-go-lucky who plays around with their lives, they will follow someone who potray himself as pious and holy, inspiring them to die with his words and cunningness.
Purpose of a soldier is to kill people, not to save anything. Every soldier who goes into battle - regardless whether he is an atheist, Christian, Muslim or any other religion/belief is expected to die in the battlefield, or live long enough to kill the enemy.
The Catholic church for a time in the middle ages declared war on all who do not believe as they do. Burnt people because they held pagan beliefs. Killed protestants because they do not subscribe to what the vatican teaches. Hounded and wiped out the gnostic christians (these were christians who believed that Christ has a more profound and spiritual message to the world).
But all this eventually stopped, because the Catholic Vatican began to hold on to what Jesus said about God and country. "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." So religion and politics were separated.
As for Islam, religion and politics were never separated until today.
So the "pious" politician can rally crowds using pieces of quotes from the Quran. And declare death sentences to all that disagree.
Or the head of a particular sect can declare war on the "heretics" like the alawite and the wahabis.
As long as a muslim cannot differentiate a political motive from a religious one, then he is just led on by any good orator of the day.
That is my take on what is happening to Islam.
It is the only religion now in the world where a religious leader can declare war on heretics or kafirs, and still be legitimate and righteous. Where basic human understanding of conscience and empathy are push aside for religious fervour.
The question, "Why are muslims killing each other", is to amplify how a muslim classifies another muslim as kafir and still be halal in his actions against one another.
We of course understand if violence is acted on the non-believer.
But another person who considers himself as muslim as yourself?
But all this eventually stopped, because the Catholic Vatican began to hold on to what Jesus said about God and country. "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." So religion and politics were separated.
Actually you are wrong. You stated that the Church have stopped its war against other believers (in modern times). This shows that you do not have enough history knowledge.
When World War 2 occurred, do you know how Adolf Hitler were able to spread so fast across the Europe like locust? Because he had support of the Roman Church at that time, who endorsed him for doing "god's" work - which was to clear off the Jews from the World (through his vision of Aryan Nation - to unite the World under on Aryan Flag).
This is why you see a lot of commotion on how Japanese Emperors, his senate and his military personals were treated badly after World War 2 but the same thing never happened in Germany after they lost the war. Matter a fact, after Hitler's alleged suicide (some said he escaped to Argentina), only the top ranking military officers were persecuted (and some managed to escape) and Germany was allowed to progress as it always had (unlike Japan which were in constant watch for nearly 10 yrs after the war). This was cos America and Russia had a secret agreement (through the Church) to split the Wealth of Knowledge and Technology as well as personals from Germany.
So you see, the Roman Church was as cunning as it was in the days of the Crusades.
The conspiracy theory that the Catholic Church supported the Nazis.
You first have to understand the position of the pope as a man who is given the task to ensure that all souls are given the chance to know the intentions of Christ, that all souls can enter the kingdom of God, even Hitler, if he truly repent ( the word repentance is highly misunderstood by many. Some say if i say sorry to god at the last minute before i die, God will have to forgive me. Wrong. Repentance is the true realisationn of the wrong you have done and the hurt you have caused, and you finally wished for change and forgiveness. What father would refuse a child who finally realised how wrong he was and finally understands the will of the father?).
When the Nazis attacked Poland, they murdered many including 100 orthodox priests loyal to the Catholic church, for the Nazis feared they may speak in revolt.
As i have said earlier, the Catholic church no longer involves itself in politics. But uses its world support to try to change and heal the damage the Nazis have done in their conquests.
The Catholics have already forgiven those who participated in the killing of Jesus in the first century, for we believe that our sins, everyone, caused the death of Jesus. So how can we hate the jews when Christ was a devout Jew himself.
Through Vatican 1 council and Vatican 2 council meetings since the 18th century, the Catholic church embarked on its own transformation from disunity to a united church in doctrine and that all men are equal in the eyes of God.
As for the Nazi leaders, all suffered death, some immediately, others in south america where they fled. None were spared by the Allies. Germany was divided because of the deal with Russia, as Russia sees it as conquered territory. As for Hitler, who knows...
As for the Japenese military leaders most were spared because the USA knows that to kill any senior military leader was a direct accusation that the Emperor was the one who ordered the invasion. This cannot be done as the Emperor was seen as a God, and to do so will risk rousing the populace to continue fighting the americans which the USA cannot afford to do. So USA accepted concessions instead and that Japan has to disband its military and naval might.
So i think you should read more history - factual ones rather than short stories of conspiracy.
nightlord posted on 16-6-2013 09:48 PM
Ok. To give you some perspective.
The Catholic church for a time in the middle ages declared war ...
@nightlord
The Catholic church for a time in the middle ages declared war on all who do not believe as they do. Burnt people because they held pagan beliefs. Killed protestants because they do not subscribe to what the vatican teaches. Hounded and wiped out the gnostic christians (these were christians who believed that Christ has a more profound and spiritual message to the world).
But all this eventually stopped, because the Catholic Vatican began to hold on to what Jesus said about God and country. "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." So religion and politics were separated.
What teaching that the Protestants didn't subscribe to that causing them to get killed? I may have made too much simplification or have wrong understanding but it sounds like that the killing has stopped after they got hold on to Jesus's words (it's odd that people killed each other just because they didn't get to hold on to what Jesus said about God and country).
@nightlord
So the "pious" politician can rally crowds using pieces of quotes from the Quran. And declare death sentences to all that disagree.
Or the head of a particular sect can declare war on the "heretics" like the alawite and the wahabis.
As long as a muslim cannot differentiate a political motive from a religious one, then he is just led on by any good orator of the day.
That is my take on what is happening to Islam.
I'm interested to know who is this "pious" politician and what quotes from Al-Quran did he use to declare death sentences to all that disagree? Unable to differentiate a political motive from a religious one sounds too bold for me, a real example would be better. Have you considered a muslim who's disobeying or ignoring the Islamic teaching as one of the possible main issues?
@nightlord
It is the only religion now in the world where a religious leader can declare war on heretics or kafirs, and still be legitimate and righteous. Where basic human understanding of conscience and empathy are push aside for religious fervour.
If the war declaration are according to the Creator's command and the way of absolute truth, then why not? What basic human understanding of conscience and empathy that are push aside by Islam? That statement itself sounds too bold for me, a real world example would be better.
@nightlord
The question, "Why are muslims killing each other", is to amplify how a muslim classifies another muslim as kafir and still be halal in his actions against one another.
We of course understand if violence is acted on the non-believer.
But another person who considers himself as muslim as yourself?
Have you considered the idea that there are bad muslims and there are good muslims in this world? Your amplification if I can assume is mostly based on what is happening with some group of muslims nowadays, which in my opinion is not unique and you can find the same issue in other religions.
nightlord posted on 2-5-2013 01:08 AM
I find it strange that a muslim can kill another muslim because he believes HE HAS THE CORRECT INTER ...
base on history of Prophet Muhammad saw... long before Islam exists, the arabs like having war just like having bread and butter.... there is one point during the prophecy of Muhammad saw that war was banned during the holy month.. even during Prophet Muhammad saw childhood time, he had been assisting his uncles in the war... They fight for land, they fight for rights, they fight for ladies, they fight for everything... they have lack of interpersonal skill like negotiation, tolerance and considerations... they are arrogant and hence they thought what they did and have been doing is right and justified....
The conspiracy theory that the Catholic Church supported the Nazis.
You first have to understand the position of the pope as a man who is given the task to ensure that all souls are given the chance to know the intentions of Christ, that all souls can enter the kingdom of God, even Hitler, if he truly repent ( the word repentance is highly misunderstood by many. Some say if i say sorry to god at the last minute before i die, God will have to forgive me. Wrong. Repentance is the true realisationn of the wrong you have done and the hurt you have caused, and you finally wished for change and forgiveness. What father would refuse a child who finally realised how wrong he was and finally understands the will of the father?).
When the Nazis attacked Poland, they murdered many including 100 orthodox priests loyal to the Catholic church, for the Nazis feared they may speak in revolt.
Conspiracy theory my foot.
Adolf Hitler and the Church have had a long and nice, cosy relationship, long before Hitler started his invasion of Europe in 1939. The Church was supportive of Hitler and his Aryan Nation movement as they see him as savior against Russia's Communism and its spread across Europe between 1910 - 1930s. In 1933, Hitler and the Church signed an agreement - agreeing that Hitler could not interfere with Church activities while the Church remain silent on political issues (including Hitler's activities). In another word, the Church allowed Hitler to rampage while it remain silent and pretend to "save" people from the background. That is the truth about your Roman Church.
The suffering you spoke of are those who are Christians in the local region (Germany and other European nations) who felt the blunt of Hitler who quickly tried to replace Christian belief with his own Mein Klampf. This was done while Roman Church in Rome kept quiet and pretend nothing was wrong.
Bottomline :- Atheism in Russia was spreading and Roman Church feared for its belief and foundation against this new "monster" from Russia, so they turn their attention toward another "monster" from Germany which they fed and fed till it grew up strong and healthy and started to enslave the whole Europe. That is how Roman Church "saved" Europe and Europeans.
Sorry i was overly dramatic in my description of events. It is hard to summarise attitudes in the middle ages where many still believe in sorcery and every illness is because there is a witch in town.
I do apologise for truncating events - but it is for you to read further on the subject matter.
I always try to walk in someone else's shoe, just to have an idea of what perspective they have compared to mine.
Not many protestants were killed in fact, if it happened it was due to suppression of protests rather than an outright declaration of war, as the protestants were just a scattered group. Read Martin Luther - a german monk who started the protestant movement.
For want a proper 'real life example', the hypothethical 'pious' politician could be associated with someone like the president of Iran. Where politics and religious direction, whether for the good of the people or for the benefit of the few is hard to differentiate.
Bad muslim good muslim is not the issue. The issue i find wanting is that, for example in Syria, a muslim sunni will kill a muslim alawite child largely because he is alawite.
I agree that there are small pockets of such events in every religion, but i find it an attitude so common in Islam that in times of war or want of rule of law, the minority muslim is always targeted and many times killed.
nightlord posted on 18-6-2013 08:32 PM
Sorry i was overly dramatic in my description of events. It is hard to summarise attitudes in the mi ...
It is always easy to pass something off by just observing it and making your conclusions. However I feel your conclusion does not mirror what is actually happening. Geopolitical maneuverings are very subtle and it takes a person who is well informed to dissect the issues.
The Syrian conflict is not about religion, even a little bit. Nor is the divide in Islam between Sunnis and Shiites always a salient determinant of politics or social action. But it is true that most Alawites, Christians, Druze and other small minorities either support the secular Baath government of Bashar al-Assad or at least are afraid of elements of the opposition. But so too do substantial numbers of Sunni Syrians support the government or decline to come out against it. The rebels are largely Sunni, but some of them are relatively secular-minded, or are Sufi mystics. A small number are radicals who have declared an affiliation with al-Qaeda, but this group has been disproportionately successful on the battlefield, in part because it receives money and weapons from private Gulf millionaires and billionaires who lean toward the hard line Salafi school.
The intervention of the Shiite militia, Hizbullah, in the recent battle for al-Qusayr, in which the rebels were defeated and expelled, inflamed Sunni-Shiite tensions. But note that Hizbullah is not fighting for Shiites and most of its members probably don’t consider the folk religion of the Nusayris (popularly called Alawites) to be true Islam. They are fighting to shore up al-Assad because he offers them Syria as a land bridge over which Iranian arms can flow. Without the Syrian land bridge, Hizbullah would be cut off and could easily fall to an Israeli invasion.
Your comment :
.. but i find it an attitude so common in Islam that in times of war or want of rule of law, the minority muslim is always targeted and many times killed ..
is fallacious. Since you've mentioned Syria , the Alawites are the minority (~15%) but they are the ones targetting the majority as they control the arms in the said country. Therefore your point that the minority are being targeted is not accurate.
nightlord posted on 18-6-2013 08:32 PM
Sorry i was overly dramatic in my description of events. It is hard to summarise attitudes in the mi ...
Regardless of whether it is scattered group, oppression, others; killing innocent people is still prohibited. You can amplify the "muslims killing each other" to a certain degree but the fact here is you'll also find Christians killing each other at some point in history due to whatever reason.
I don't know why you don't want to accept the bad muslim good muslim issue as a reason of why muslims are killing each other. Care to explain why?
As you have just mentioned in your rant, the Church is commited to its stand on non-involvement in the political scene of Germany. Such separation is necessary, as the Church deemed itself to be fighting for the spiritual 'afterlife' rather than present earthly life. So the stand on non-interference, but that does not mean the Church has no power to swing world opinion against Nazi Germany.
Your conclusion of " which they fed and fed till it grew up strong and healthy and started to enslave the whole Europe." is so far off that it is ludicrous. Your inference is that the Catholic Church funded Nazi activities is hardly the case, as the reason for the "Aryan Supremacy" of the Nazi vs the rich jews was most likely the cause of the increased stolen wealth of the Nazi regime and its subsequent rise to power.
Sam1528,
Exactly, geopolitical maneuvering is really what is happening in the Arab world. Every political maneuver is always covered by a verse from the Quran. Every politician in the Arab world subjugate its population through such maneuverings. That is why the Arab Spring happened.
Syria, the statement on the 'minorities' encompass the many muslim countries in the world, not in particular Syria. But the Syrian uprising again is due to the fact that the Alawites are considered heretics by Sunni and Shias (they are in power because of western powers), and like South Africa, it is just a matter of time before it tipped over.
Minority persecution of smaller muslim sects in MOST muslim countries are a reality.
Like,
Indonesia - Wahabis and Ahmadiyas (majority Sunni)
Malaysia - any sect consider deviant by the Sharia courts (majority Sunni)
Pakistan - Ahmadiyas, Sufi (majority Sunni)
etc.
As for your 'bad muslim' 'good muslim' - how do you define that. A Shia suicide bomber walk into weekend market in a Sunni Area still deem himself a 'good' muslim! A martyr in fact destined to paradise, eventhough the market place are filled with women and children.
As you have just mentioned in your rant, the Church is commited to its stand on non-in ...
Sam1528,
Exactly, geopolitical maneuvering is really what is happening in the Arab world. Every political maneuver is always covered by a verse from the Quran. Every politician in the Arab world subjugate its population through such maneuverings. That is why the Arab Spring happened.
Syria, the statement on the 'minorities' encompass the many muslim countries in the world, not in particular Syria. But the Syrian uprising again is due to the fact that the Alawites are considered heretics by Sunni and Shias (they are in power because of western powers), and like South Africa, it is just a matter of time before it tipped over.
Minority persecution of smaller muslim sects in MOST muslim countries are a reality.
Like,
Indonesia - Wahabis and Ahmadiyas (majority Sunni)
Malaysia - any sect consider deviant by the Sharia courts (majority Sunni)
Pakistan - Ahmadiyas, Sufi (majority Sunni)
What is exactly your point? The religion cannot be blamed if a person uses a Quranic verse for their political opportunity. The same can happen for the case of Christians. A case in point is ex president George Bush. He cites the bible and him being a bible defender and he grossed almost all support from the constituents of the bible belt and conservative christians.
Not so in point that all Arab politicians uses religion to subjugate the masses. Saddam Hussein was a secularist. Reza Pahlavi was a secularist. Mubarak is a secularist. Ben Ali and Ali Abdullah are secularists , Ghaddafi was a secularist. The monarch of Saudi are more western than the westeners and monarchy system is not an Islamic system as the House of Saud came into power thru the support of the British ~ 1920.
The issue here is not the persecution of minorities as claimed by you. A good example are the Alawites , they are the minority but they are the government of the day. The Greeks are now persecuting the minorities because of their failed state. Myanmar is persecuting the minority Rohingyas. The gypsies are being persecuted in Christian Europe.
Where did you get the idea that the Syria uprising is due to the Alawites viewed being heretics by the sunnis / shiite? Is this your personal opinion? The analysis by Prof Juan Cole is exactly the opposite to your claim.
What do you mean the Wahabis are being persecuted? The Wahabis are sunni muslims. Persecution of sufis? All sunni muslims are part sufis. This is a iman branch of tassawuf. There are about 3 categories of sufism and the extreme category is the one that begins with 'dhikir' and ends up in 'kufr'. As for the Ahmadis , they are persecuted by individuals or systematically by the authorities?
You are trying to argue that Islam advocates persecution of minorities. The same argument can be made on christianity.
But like I said, that’s not what he was really saying. Or rather, it was not all he was saying. He went on ‘I find it strange that I am to be taken to task for the treatment of Jews by self-appointed representatives of Judeo – Christian Europe. The Holocaust…’ before he could finish, the murmur of unease and criticism went up in the hall, a replica of Parliament. A young man stood up and objected: ‘But you’re doing exactly what they did to you! Tarnishing a whole civilization by the crime of some!’
Indeed.
So what?
When they understood where he was going with this line of logic, they did not like it. How could he bring up the Holocaust and use that to critique European post – Enlightenment civilization? We thought he was making a sarcastic apology for the alleged crimes of Muslims. But now it appears what he really wants to say is:
‘If I and my people are to be accounted for the transgressions of our culture and religion, be it in Saudi Arabia or Iran, now or a thousand years ago, how about we ALL play that game?’
This is a just a game being played over and over again by people who try to broadbrush a religion because of the crimes of some. Sadly , christians often use such argument against Islam. Not only it is weak but it is disingenuous.
As you have just mentioned in your rant, the Church is commited to its stand on non-in ...
@nightlord
As for your 'bad muslim' 'good muslim' - how do you define that. A Shia suicide bomber walk into weekend market in a Sunni Area still deem himself a 'good' muslim! A martyr in fact destined to paradise, eventhough the market place are filled with women and children.
A martyr killing innocent women and children, and then destined to paradise? With greatest respect, kindly provide the evidence of which Islamic teaching that says that. I mean a real Islamic teaching, and not based on somebody saying.
I'm not sure of your intention on using the muslim countries as the case to amplify your "Muslims killing Muslims" point. Other people can come along and bring the Crusades as a case to amplify the "Christians killing Christians" point. So, may I know what is the actual contention here?
I stated here again that killing innocent people is prohibited in Islam.
I stated here again that killing innocent people is prohibited in Islam.
Mind showing me where it is stated so (that killing "innocent" people is prohibited in your so-called "real Islamic teaching".
FYI - Islam already labelled non-believers as "guilty" of crime of not believing in Allah and Muhammad, therefore, in Islam, killing the people (who are not Muslims) are perfectly justified (cos they are not "innocent" as you describe).
Islamic logic works like this :
Islamic Law :- Innocent people cannot be killed.
Logic :- Non-Muslims do not commit any crimes toward Muslims.
Way around :- Make the choice not accept Allah and Muhammad as "Crime"
New Logic :- Non-Muslims do not accept Allah and Muhammad, therefore they are guilty.
Islamic Laws :- Innocent people cannot be killed, but guilty people can be (killed) therefore, killing of non-Muslims are justified.
"This is a just a game being played over and over again by people who try to broadbrush a religion because of the crimes of some."
Sadly, i wish that was true, that people like me would 'broadbrush' any religion.
Muslims has always hid behind the veil that 'they did it not me' or 'they are mad men not true muslims'.
You want examples, just google something simple like "suicide bombers".
You want examples of killing of innocents?
- Chechnya = the rape and killing of russian school children
- Armenia = forced march of 2 million armenian christians, 1.5 million died
-America = 9/11 5000 killed
- Boston Marathon bombing
- Bali bombing
Before you bring up how American foreign policy has forced muslims to retaliate, please remember that
the means does not justify the end.
Before you say 'its those evil men not us', please remember that i witness the live telecast of the 9/11 event on tv and had the unfortunate opportunity to witness rejoicing among some kopi shop muslims.
What i say to you is that Islam can change and move any man to militanism, in the 'protection of Islam'. And that include any muslim who does not adhere to main stream doctrine of Islam within its own borders. Prime example is Shia muslim in malaysia , example http://www.loyarburok.com/2011/0 ... uslims-in-malaysia/
nightlord posted on 20-6-2013 11:49 AM
"This is a just a game being played over and over again by people who try to broadbrush a religion b ...
You are skirting around the issue. I hope you would come clean and just say that your argument is that Islam promotes violence. If yes , produce the pertinent verses. Why don't we just compare real data : 20th century deaths in war and political violence
The analysis by Prof Juan Cole. The pie chart shows that more than 95% of the killings in the 20th century comes from your religion , ie. christianity.
As for political violence, people of Christian heritage in the twentieth century polished off tens of millions of people in the two world wars and colonial repression. This massive carnage did not occur because European Christians are worse than or different from other human beings, but because they were the first to industrialize war and pursue a national model. Sometimes it is argued that they did not act in the name of religion but of nationalism. But, really, how naive. Religion and nationalism are closely intertwined.
It takes a peculiar sort of blindness to see Christians of European heritage as “nice” and Muslims and inherently violent, given the twentieth century death toll I mentioned above.
What branch of shiite are we talking about? There are several branches of shiite. There are even shiite who worship Caliph Ali(ra). These people are condemned even by the shiite themselves to be heretics. Can you now tell me what branch of shiite is the person (Nazri) who is of your interest?
If you say 911 / Boston Bombing were due to Bin Laden / Al Qaeda. Then its the Americans who created these entities
Suddenly their creation went 'whacko' and Islam is to be blamed? What is the religion of the US president who created these entities?
I present real data and analysis by people in the know. You only present your own opinion and your own analysis without knowing the whole story. Don't you think its hypocritical of you? Christians are not in any moral high ground as the track record your religion is even worse.
Sephiroth posted on 20-6-2013 10:45 AM
Mind showing me where it is stated so (that killing "innocent" people is prohibited in your so-c ...
@Sephiroth
Mind showing me where it is stated so (that killing "innocent" people is prohibited in your so-called "real Islamic teaching".
FYI - Islam already labelled non-believers as "guilty" of crime of not believing in Allah and Muhammad, therefore, in Islam, killing the people (who are not Muslims) are perfectly justified (cos they are not "innocent" as you describe).
Al-Quran 2:190
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed Allah does not like transgressors.
I don't know how did you arrive to that kind of justification. If that is the case, then the non-believers will cease to exist during Prophet Muhammad pbuh time.
I believe that justification is just your opinion. I'd rather deal with the issue on evidential basis; with the greatest respect kindly bring forward the evidence to your claim so that we can assess your so called "Islamic logic" accordingly.
The facts that muslims are persecuting the minority are mounting and the evidences are all around us and we don't even have to look further for the real life example; you can easily quote an example elsewhere and this is just what happened in our country just 5 days ago; Syiah jika berkembang akan tindas Sunni, kata PAS Kelantan
The Malaysian Insider – Sat, Jun 15, 2013. http://my.news.yahoo.com/syiah-j ... tml?.tsrc=samsungwn.
A habitual fact denying and truth twisting muslim here is quoting some absurb examples, especially that dubious pie chart which he had used repeatedly as can be seen in my previous thread. Too bad, any person with slight knowledge of history knows that 99% of war waged by muslims were fought in the name of their faith, Islam as still can be easily seen today and it is still happenning around the world even when i'm typing this post !
In the case of Christianity, how many wars were fought in the name of God except crusade ? (even Crusade whether it was motivated by religious motive is still subject to debate today by historians !) .
Here is the ultimate truth, all Christendom had practised separation of state and church since 17th century, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state. Any wars fought by these countries after 17th century were all motivated by imperialism and greed for rich exotic resources by secular western government.
Unlike western countries, muslim countries never practise separation of state and mosque( with the exception of modern Turkey and Indonesia), in fact, today some leaders in these muslim countres are religious leaders and time and time again they have proven to the world that they are the most blood thirsty of them all !
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