Seni Propaganda VS Amir Muhammad

Greenbottle3

davidngui;

i don't need to 'over analyze' zhang yimou's films...his films (with the exceptions of the last two  (hero and the one after this which i can't remember the title now ) which are rubbish, the rest are simply beautiful film making...in all respects..cinematography, screenplay acting music the whole lot... are simply beautiful....i don't care what they are about , but if the films are as good as these i'll watch them ...

and there lies the big difference with Amir's...

and here is the thing pessoa...
why are amir's creative outputs  discussed under 'films' if they are 'just' whimsical documentaries?...and  bad ones at that! i think we're giving undue regards to them...amir obviosly have talents but if he keep on dishing out rubbish like these i don't think we should heap praise and should call a spade a spade...for his own good too....

[Amir juga mungkin kelihatan stupid krn gagal memahami kehendak & harapan audience]

As moderator I would think one should be more objective and neutral in dealing discussion not injecting further personal biases. I can't believe I hear the word Stupid coming from the mouth of a teacher. Here goes the moral values. Now I know why many youngsters keruntuhan akhlak. The teacher should lead by example. Not the other way around.

fleurzsa

Originally posted by davidngui at 13-6-2006 11:01 AM
As moderator I would think one should be more objective and neutral in dealing discussion not injecting further personal biases. I can't believe I hear the word Stupid coming from the mouth of  ...

Stupid n mungkin kelihatan stupid r different words, sir... especially in court.

Do u beleive that I stroke my Indian student that he was bleeding?    I also said to him,"Teacher tidak benci kamu".   There were many cases that cars were  scratched by students but never my car...

Strike n strike with reason r different words too.

Then... even stupid Malaysian got feeling..

fleurzsa

One more thing.. u all can say anything about me as u like.  Im a Malaysian thinker...

The problem with you is that I think you take things too personally and therefore being too defensive. That's why you started to use words and statements which are also problematic. The same goes to the name of the thread and most of your comments.

All my comments are towards your role as moderator as like I said I would expect a moderator,like name suggests, to moderate conversations and discussions. You don't have to agree or disagree with anyone's posts. And seems that you are so proud of who you are as a teacher, you should lead by example. Calling anyone stupid is rude, unacceptable and hurtful to anyone at any age anywhere, period.

But unfortunately in most of your posts, you were just being too personal and heat up unnecesary air. And that's why people like me will throw back at you. You seem to enjoy the huge attention to you rather than to the subject of discussion.

Let me clarify, my comments are towards you at what you said, not at who you are. If you aren't the moderator, I probably won't be so harsh because anyone who has the high role to monitor and regulate people must have a strong self discipline and set up the standard for others to follow.  

If you are a Malaysian Thinker like you claimed, please do listen and think about what I said.

fleurzsa

Originally posted by davidngui at 13-6-2006 02:58 PM
The problem with you is that I think you take things too personally and therefore being too defensive. That's why you started to use words and statements which are also problematic. The same goes t ...

Okay, I will take some time to think n will reply again.

Thanks n take care

Sephiroth

by davidngui   

Please read The Manifesto of Communism by Karl Marx, try find Goldberg and Engel's perspective of communism, read about Marxism too as many confused the different about Marxism and Communism. I spent years of studying them and I can summarize that Communism is actually an ideal political system, better than democrazy.

Hmph ... Let see what the Great Communist Chinese God - Moa Ze Dong have to say about this "ideal political system" :

Source : http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/china/gov/mao_revo.htm

A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous.  A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.

pessoa

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 12-6-2006 09:56 PM


Memang la dia berjaya sebab dia tinggal di Malaysia, bukan negara komunis...

Apa kena-mengena dia tinggal di negara komunis dengan negara bukan komunis? Soalannya di sini, yang aku agak kau tak nampak, ialah KAU TAU TAK NIAT AMIR? Kalau kau tak tau, macamana kau nak komen? Ini yang disebut sebagai intentional fallacy, yakni meletakkan niat yang tidak kententuan ujung pangkalnya pada satu karya.

Itu pemikiran sempit...  I dah byk kali jumpa filem2 P Ramlee yg dikitar semula...  slot tertentu filem2 beli ...

Sempit itu bila fikir filem P.Ramlee suci dan bagus sedangkan hakikatnya tidak. Kau ikut arus dengan hidung, bila berlanggar dinding, kemudian kau salahkan  dinding. Kau ingat filem P.Ramlee bebas-propaganda?

pessoa

Originally posted by Greenbottle3 at 12-6-2006 11:02 PM
why are amir's creative outputs  discussed under 'films' if they are 'just' whimsical documentaries?

Jadi kau fikir yang Amir bikin itu filem?

...and  bad ones at that! i think we're giving undue regards to them...amir obviosly have talents but if he keep on dishing out rubbish like these i don't think we should heap praise and should call a spade a spade...for his own good too....

You keep saying they're bad, but can you say why? Is it bad because you say it's bad? Are you the universal arbiter of what's good and bad in the world, you catcher-in-the-rye-loving-person you?

pessoa

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 12-6-2006 09:42 PM


Wehhh... mana ada I beri komen direct ttg filem2 Amir.  I komen ttg Amir sbg pembikin filem.

But have YOU watched any of his 'films'? Itu yang penting, kalau kau mau komen tentang Amir sebagai pembikin filem, sekurang-kurangnya kau mesti sudah menonton hasil karya dia. Kalau tidak APA ASAS komen kau?

Greenbottle3

mr pessoa;

why did i say amir's fims are bad?
i thought i've explained myself... but mai pen rai...kata orang siam...

don't want to say too much bad things about amir's films... but i guess there must be someone who is honest enough to say that the king has no clothes...

the arguments about amir has become so polarized that it has kinda cloud the real issue...what's so big deal about amir's films?

here are what i gather from what I've seen

cinematography.... terrible
acting (in lips to lips)...nothing to shout about...too much copycat scenes..or may be you want to say 'homage' to films like say reservoir dog (name of pink?) etc...
screenplay...trying to be too clever but overdone...
directing:...what directing??

his documentaries  i think is trying to copy too much from ...may be ..that marvellous film about the crazy cartoonist family which was directed by i can't remember who...jonathan demme??

his six shorts...i can't make head or tail of it... that mona fandey piece for instance... who does he think he is...andy warhol??

in short..his films are not only too amateurish...but also too derivative...

but i hope ..honestly... amir will 'grow up' and make real films...

what is real film you ask..well, films like quentin tarantino's, or coen brothers (if he's into witty comedy/satire) or zhan yi mou if he's into beauty and subtlety or david lynch or peter greenaway if he wants to be too clever......just to quote a few examples of living film makers.......

pessoa

Originally posted by Greenbottle3 at 16-6-2006 07:27 PM
why did i say amir's fims are bad?
i thought i've explained myself... but mai pen rai...kata orang siam...

Macam kata Walter Benjamin, ada setengah orang tu beri komentar, ada setengah orang tu buat kritik. Komentar buat aku tidur, kritik buat aku jaga dan dengar.

don't want to say too much bad things about amir's films... but i guess there must be someone who is honest enough to say that the king has no clothes...

Dude, honestly, aku jumpa dia slalu gak untuk minum2 atau tonton wayang gambar. Dan tiap kali jumpa dia aku kutuk pojokan dia dalam NST (Have you read them? Ya Allah kalau itu bukan kemalangan keretapi tak taulah). So say anything you want...

what is real film you ask..well, films like quentin tarantino's, or coen brothers (if he's into witty comedy/satire) or zhan yi mou if he's into beauty and subtlety or david lynch or peter greenaway if he wants to be too clever......just to quote a few examples of living film makers.......

Then criticize real filmmakers, like Yasmin, or Yuhang, or James Lee. Amir buat dokumentari, jadi itu kayu ukur yang patut digunakan. Kenapa nak heret Zhang Yimou bila kritik dokumentari Amir?

[p.s. I think we can all agree that Lips to Lips bukanlah karya yang baik - Amir pun pernah mengakui hakikat ni]

fleurzsa

Apa kena-mengena dia tinggal di negara komunis dengan negara bukan komunis? Soalannya di sini, yang aku agak kau tak nampak, ialah KAU TAU TAK NIAT AMIR? Kalau kau tak tau, macamana kau nak komen? Ini yang disebut sebagai intentional fallacy, yakni meletakkan niat yang tidak kententuan ujung pangkalnya pada satu karya.

I boleh juga cakap pd u bhw yg I agak u tak nampak ialah... U TAU TAK NIAT I?

I tidak fikir terdpt fallacy di atas niat I.... mungkin ada fallacy pd penghujahan I krn kurang tepat.

Hmm niat Amir bikin filem ek.. samada beliau nak hasilkan sesuatu yg bermutu atau... ( I maleh nak tulis.. nanti u all terperanjat lak)

Topik ini....Seni Propaganda VS Amir Muhammad

boleh juga

Seni Propaganda against Amir Muhammad

Apakah tajuk tersebut menunjukkan I berniat tak ketentuan pd Amir?

Sekiranya Amir hanya boleh dikomen oleh manusia2 yg tahu ttg niat beliau membikin filem... its okay with me.

hmmm... I thought he is an open person.

Sempit itu bila fikir filem P.Ramlee suci dan bagus sedangkan hakikatnya tidak. Kau ikut arus dengan hidung, bila berlanggar dinding, kemudian kau salahkan  dinding. Kau ingat filem P.Ramlee bebas-propaganda?

I tak ada kata filem2 Amir berunsur propaganda atau filem2 P Ramlee bebas propaganda... I menyatakan aspek2 filem yg patut dicontohi. Filem boleh wujud sbg propaganda.

Maybe I tak pernah terbabit dlm filem... tapi I beberapa kali menjadi penulis skrip, pengarah & pelakon dlm English Skecth Competition.  So, tak der la buta filem sgt.

fleurzsa

But have YOU watched any of his 'films'? Itu yang penting, kalau kau mau komen tentang Amir sebagai pembikin filem, sekurang-kurangnya kau mesti sudah menonton hasil karya dia. Kalau tidak APA ASAS komen kau?

Elehh u ingat pembikin filem bebas je ada... pengkritik bebas tak ada.. Kan I dah beritahu... asas komen I adalah pembacaan dan penerangan member2.

Apakah u nak mempertikaikan hak kebebasan I memberi pendapat?  

I telah menyatakan hujah2 yg boleh I fikir... terpulang la kpd sesiapa shj mahu menerima atau tidak.  I bukan berhujah kosong.. I sertakan hujah2 sokongan.

pessoa

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 16-6-2006 11:23 PM

I boleh juga cakap pd u bhw yg I agak u tak nampak ialah... U TAU TAK NIAT I?

Peduli apa niat kau! Aku tak kritik niat kau!

Hmm niat Amir bikin filem ek.. samada beliau nak hasilkan sesuatu yg bermutu atau... ( I maleh nak tulis.. nanti u all terperanjat lak)

Nak terperanjat kenapa pulak? Selagi kau dah tengok filemnya, kau nak kata apa pun boleh diterima dan dibincang.

Topik ini....Seni Propaganda VS Amir Muhammad

boleh juga

Seni Propaganda against Amir Muhammad

Apakah tajuk tersebut menunjukkan I berniat tak ketentuan pd Amir?

Aku serius tak peduli niat kau.

Sekiranya Amir hanya boleh dikomen oleh manusia2 yg tahu ttg niat beliau membikin filem... its okay with me.

hmmm... I thought he is an open person.

Sebab tulah penting MENONTON filemnya. Kita tak tau niatnya, jadi filemnya sepatutnya berdiri sendiri sebagai karya yang boleh dikritik. Pedulikan Amir Muhammad. Beri tumpuan pada filem dia.

Maybe I tak pernah terbabit dlm filem... tapi I beberapa kali menjadi penulis skrip, pengarah & pelakon dlm English Skecth Competition.  So, tak der la buta filem sgt.  

Siapa kata kau buta filem? Apa ni inferiority complex ke?

pessoa

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 16-6-2006 11:40 PM


Elehh u ingat pembikin filem bebas je ada... pengkritik bebas tak ada.. Kan I dah beritahu... asas komen I adalah pembacaan dan penerangan member2.

Apakah u nak mempertikaikan hak kebebasan  ...

SUDAH TONTON KE BELUM?  Mudah saja persoalannya. Kalau setakat nak kritik tanpa menonton, sorilah beb, memang tak ada kredibilitilah... tak ada kena mengena dengan kebebasan ke hapa ke...

Sekurang-kurangnya En Greenbottle dah tonton.

pessoa

Macam nilah.

Omputeh ada kata, The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Kita boleh lihat maksudnya sebagai: selagi kau tak rasa pudding tu, walau beribu orang kata sedap, boleh tak kau kata ia sedap? Sedap bagi setiap orang, lain, dan sedap bagi setiap orang, eksklusif pada dirinya sendiri. Jadi untuk katakan ia sedap dengan ikhlas, kita perlu merasanya sendiri.

Idak gitu?

fleurzsa

Originally posted by pessoa at 17-6-2006 09:30 AM
Macam nilah.
Omputeh ada kata, The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Kita boleh lihat maksudnya sebagai: selagi kau tak rasa pudding tu, walau beribu orang kata sedap, boleh tak kau kata ia ...

Yes sir yes sir... 3 bags full...

Then ada org tak perlu jumpa komunis atau berada dlm era komunis utk komen ttg komunis dgn confident-nya..:pmuka:

Dont insult my intelligent...:nyorok:

[ Last edited by  fleurzsa at 17-6-2006 01:20 PM ]

Greenbottle3

ha ha mr pessoa, creative world in malaysia is very small indeed...
glad to hear that you pergi minum2 dan makan2 dgn amir... next time you meet him just tell him that i said   'don't be such a bloody coconut...make real films or real documentaries...'

...amir doesn't know me by this name but i'm sure he fondly remembers  me quite well...heh heh heh...

and tell him that i agree with you...his current nst colunm is stupid... not even funny ...i love his old perforated sheets though...why can't he write in similar vein?

and about yasmin and the rest who's trying to make 'malaysian films'...well i couldn't be buggered... i don't give a 'flying f**k' (as kurt vonnegut would say)  about malaysian films... i want a good filem MELAYU...i want some respect for malay films..notthe current malay films which seems to be catered to monkeys...

pessoa

Originally posted by fleurzsa at 17-6-2006 10:06 AM


Dont insult my intelligent...:nyorok:

Rasanya tak perlu. Kau sudah lakukannya sendiri dengan gembira.