Indonesia wants to buy Israeli UAVs

johngage

<<Viewing  indigenous defense programs from a cost-benefit point-of-view is errornous. The point is to build and enchance indigenous capability to develop and manufacture high-tech systems. In other words, we are investing on "knowledge". No price is too high>>

I am not against "indigenous defense programs", R&D, or reverse-engineering as a matter of principle. What I am questioning is whether Malaysia's politicians have the necessary political will and patience to provide the sustained funding necessary to see these projects through to the end. I pointed out earlier that the necessary funding for the Nuri replacements have still not come through despite decades and several fatal crashes. Yet billions of the tax-payer's money was spent on expensive mega-projects such as the Sepang F1 track, Petronas Tower, Penang bridge, bailing out Perwaja Steel etc... To me this is a CLEAR indication that defence is NOT a high priority with Malaysia's politicians. There don't have the will and patience to see defence projects through to the end. Clearly for them the price IS too high.

<<The reasoning on  economic of scale, i.e. Malaysia has too small an army to be self sufficient by producing own military toys through own R&D on certain fields is not a good reason or a grand solution for buying all from others. Remember the story of man with fish? The cost of learning surely more expensive than simply buying from others in a short run.. but will be cost saving in the long run. Malaysia can even be better than Singapore on certain fields if we put a good effort in it. Our government is supporting R&D, there is no doubt about it>>

I have no doubt that in the long run it would be better for Malaysia to develop its own tech. But we must face economic reality. If orders are too small, the cost of setting up our own tech industries and R&D will result in a massive financial loss. Surely, it is in our interest to see the tax-payer's money is spent in the most efficient manner. If the choice is between a mismanaged indigenous defence project which our politicians will not have the patience to complete, and buying a good product off the shelf, we should choose the latter.  I also have no problems with believing that Malaysia has the potential to be better than Singapore. But potential alone is not enough if it is not backed up by political will. You argue that our govt supports R&D. But just look at our government's handling of our NGPV project. They told the public this was a project which was essential for our national security. They informed us they would be building 27 NGPV's. How many are they building now? Has anyone been arrested for mismanagement of a major national security project? Malaysia's politicians are NOT interested in defence. Malaysia's politicians care only about one thing: another term in office.

<<No matter how much Singapore spent from their GNP for R&D,  their army will still be  small compared to countries like China, Iran and Pakistan right? So, why don't they stop their military R&D? Surely, tehre are more reasons to it.  It will also include on how to market your own military goods as well.. >>

Singapore may be small in terms of military manpower compared to China, Iran and Pakistan. But they are NOT small when it comes to ordering military hardware: 80-100 MBT's, 350 Light Tanks, 700 IFV's, 1570 APC's, 300 howitzer's, 500 all terrain vehicles, 4000 ATGW's...etc

In Singapore's case there is an economic logic to building up their defence industries because they are ordering military hardware in large quantities. In  Malaysia's case our orders are too small to make it worthwhile to set up our own defence tech. It is not an efficient use of the tax-payer's money and our defence tech will be unsustainable. Marketing our own military products is also an extremely expensive business.

<<dude..ur arguments based on the size of an army and also market is flawed.look at Sweden..small country,granted they are rich but given the political will,we can too.maybe not as advanced but u've gotta start somewhere. >>

The word here is: POLITICAL WILL. Our politicians don't have any. How many defence products have Singapore made?

1) Bionix II

2) Bionix 25

3) Bionix 40/50

4) SSPH Primus

5) Pegasus 155mm

6) Bronco ATTC

7) SAR-21

8) Ultimax 100

9) Matador AT

And how many defence products have Malaysia made?

[ Last edited by  johngage at 3-11-2006 07:58 AM ]

Laxamana.

Well, Malaysia's politicians have the necessary political will and patience to provide the sustained funding necessary to see R&D projects through to the end. Our Honourable DPM and Defense Minister Dato' Seri Najib is one clear example of this. We don't have to flock all politicians together when come to military decisions making. Defense Ministry and our military is giving 100% support to our DPM in enhancing the development of MAF (that includes R&D). Our DPM will present in Mesyuarat Jemaah Menteri and have closed discussion with our Honorable PM that is also Malaysia's Finance Minster. Even though Defence Budget has been reduced in RM-9 ( so that more budget can be given on other areas like development and education) but that doesn't mean that military development is not important. Our government analyses our situation for sure.. development and education will make Malaysia grow and with more money, surely more things can be done including spending more in military.


Billions of the tax-payer's money was spent on expensive mega-projects such as the Sepang F1 track, Petronas Tower, Penang bridge, Putra Jaya etc because it was the need to do so at that time. Anyway, we do benefits from those projects, Putra Jaya for example is not a waste, but our nation's pride now and silences all the critics by opposition earlier. Putra Jaya solves the problem of having scattered government departments throughout KL and the surrounding areas. It solves many problems truly, including security of government documents, saves time for travelling through traffic jams etc, money(in the long run), and many more.I am not siding anybody. Just my fair remarks here. By spending in such a way,  doesn't necessarily meant that defence is not our priority. May be not our highest priority in term of where to spend first. Singapore is different, their 4% of GNP for military is so big an amount compared to us. Our alert level of danger is rather low in the last decade after Communist Party of Malaya decides to 'gulung tikar'.  Our Minsiters that are involved in defence do  have the will and patience to see defence projects through to the end. We are willing to pay for the price, but have to build the nations also lahh.. find money, 'make' money... got money can do lahh.. You get what I meant?

We can  start small in defence industry, there is nothing wrong with it, to be fair..and of course, orders are also small for the moment.. but as we get better, we should be able to do better. Being so, how can  the cost of setting up our own tech industries and R&D will result in a massive financial loss? Big loss is only if we go big since day 1.  All 27 NGPV should  come in a long run... but things can be changed or improved. 'Mismanagement' of PSV Naval Dockyard has been resolved... those with 'dirty hands' has been punished. But, not necessarily everything to be made public. This involves high security, be it fraud or even crime charges.

I wonder where Singapore will keep their local made to order of  80-100 MBT's, 350 Light Tanks, 700 IFV's, 1570 APC's, 300 howitzer's, 500 all terrain vehicles, 4000 ATGW's...etc. This is not by counting in other on the shelves orders that they are acquiring and already have. Those are pure waste.. spending money unwisely.. their national security is not at Red Alert level, far from it anyway. They are just afraid of their phantom enemy, or may be trying to be 'too smart' in this region. Let it be... we will take care of our own skirts or 'jaga tepi kain kita dulu'.

Singapore are boasting their 1) Bionix II 2) Bionix 25 3) Bionix 40/50 4) SSPH Primus 5) Pegasus 155mm 6) Bronco ATTC 7) SAR-21 8) Ultimax 100 9) Matador AT... well,  are  those genuinely made in Singapore by Singaporean indigenious military R&D? I doubt that... as it involves everything as well. The question of how many defence products have Malaysia made? Well, quite a few for a start  as a matter of fact, even though not genuinely our own,many has been listed earlier.. just like Singapore. We are embarking on the right track, even though our train is running on steam engine... we'll buy a faster train sooner or later.. but country has to be developed first, nation must grow, human capital must gain higher quality, education is very important... and don't forget, the big budget in development and education does involves R&D in various fields including military. It is not to be made public, but one should be able to realise this.

mmc

Bravo Lax...finally cannot keep silent anymore eh ...jangan terbutir OSA dah la ya .........:lol

tempur

saya rasa pembangunan system weapon adalah tidak merugikan..kerana dengan adanya self defence industry...kita dapat survive utk jangkamasa yang lama bila negara dlam huru hara...adakh kita akan terus bergantung kepada senjata dari luar yang akan memutuskan hub bila 2 masa shj atas dasar tidak mahu terlibat dlm peperangan... Kita akan menubuhkan Universiti Pertahanan tak lama lagi ..harap dimasukak sekali kos engineering pembangunan senjata...saya berbangga suatu hari nanti malaysia mempunyai system peluru berpandunya yag tersendiri...spt system pemintas pesawat berteknologi tinggi, sistem radar dan pelbagai lagi....

Gemukkkkkkk

yang aku tau, procurement tentera malaysia ni cukup famous pasal satu je..  

kalau beli apa-apa pun, mesti nak modify itu ini..  walaupun vendor dah kata jangan modify pasal akan affect performance..
of course, persoalan yang timbul dalam kepala aku ialah..  kenapa perlu modify?  atau perlu modify supaya ada orang boleh makan extra $$ melalui kos modification tu?

Laxamana.

Modify ikut keperluan je... contohnya... Hawk keluaran BAE yang Malaysia beli... radar asal boleh detect dalam 180 nautical miles je berbanding Hawk British dll yang boleh detect sampai 250 nautical miles. Ianya sengaja dikurangkan.. kalau perang, sure Hawk Malaysia kena tembak dulu. Oleh itu, kita cari lah sistem avionik dll dari France dan seumpama nya untuk dapatkan sistem yang setanding. Tu yang aku tau lah... member kerja ground crew kat base selalu citer masa borak petang-petang depan rumah.

Gemukkkkkkk

oooo camtu.. modify camtu, ok le jugak..

aku pulak selalu lepak dengan sorang kapten bersara kat sini.. dengar cerita dia je le selalunya..

Debmey

From Lax's post, I can see that he is paranoid of Singapore. I wonder why. What is there to worry about my fren?

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-11-2006 12:30 PM
From Lax's post, I can see that he is paranoid of Singapore. I wonder why. What is there to worry about my fren?

Oi! We made up several threads already for you to be a racist prick there... keep your racism there lah...

Debmey

look buddy, I'm not the one who called Jews apes and pigs. Who's the racist here?

edmundo

This forum have discussed many procurement/ investment/ future military usages supposedly for the ATM inventories..We have so far identified the brilliant ideas fowarded by all the otai here. Similarly applied to those expressed how anxious the rakyat as a whole regarding the country's policy towards the local Defence industry and how the funds flowed to the local inventors.
Not forgetting to the condemnation of the jerungs who had very much contributing to the slow development of the Defence industry in addition to the money wasted as to recover the lost occured.
What i would humbly raise up here is whether the ministry's officers INSIDE this forum (we believe a plenty of them)has voiced out the rakyat's grievances to the top office bearers invoved? This forum should be one of the best channel to issue our suggesstions, or ideas tothe ministry invoved. I do hope that the brother2 forummers can at least send this message to them. Otherwise, it would be such a waste if we continously discussing & arguing when the top people up there just sit on the cosy chair attending meeting at high class hotel awaiting monthly salary and pensions at the end of the day.

From me, the lay man strolling on the street..:love:

reinloch

Our local defense projects should be viewed as well-motivated but nonprofitable ventures pursued for the sake of acquiring "knowledge" so that we do not get stuck on the lower rungs of the technological ladder. A similiar situation is the one faced by the Japanese defense industry. However, let us be clear about this: what we produce (if we do) will only be fit for domestic consumption (we should harbor no hopes of competition with western wares or even southern wares), and may even reap the barest profit if somehow the MoD finds the sense to steer from the norm of ordering pitiful amount of differing items.

So, no, let's drop the calculators and not think about the money wasted, but about the results. But alas, both the money providers (government) and money users (researchers) are bred from the same flock that are put in place for the sake of money and have found their place through what is now well-known but cautiously mentioned as "kulitfikasi". And so, shall we continue to fail.

In comparison with the achievements of our southern neighbors, to argue by saying they spent more money than us is laughable. We did not achive even an ounce of what they did. We have NOTHING to show to justify our money spent. It's not about money. It's about the people that run the show on all echelons.

What will I tell our "honorable" DPM? It couldn't be simpler. Meritocracy.

Robotech

I think Laxamana has covered well on the subject.

At the end, its up to the political end that will decide our nation's military & defence needs.

But through upgrading & continuos R&D & nationalised local defence industry can we finally stop wasting more money to middle-men sharks.

BTW, since MY has started J/V with China on SRM .... any news on that front?

reinloch

We need to identify niche areas and focus ALL efforts (government, private, universities) on them and supply them with consistent and ever increasing funding, that is, if we are serious about producing world-class products. We need to view these efforts in this light: non-profitable venture conducted solely to gain knowledge. We need to shed the ToT mentality and start to stand on our own feet. The piecemeal and skin-dictated efforts being practised currently are obviously producing negative results.

windof

U talk only what u can see, of course the one u couldnt see u cannot talk. What Laxamana had said if u try to see clearly every each sentence (of course if u have to x-ray, by all means, just do it) had a well hidden meaning only understood by those involve in the code breaking business, and in this country, not many ppl have that capability, unless u been trained like a ninja in the dark. Mind my chronicle of analogy here.

[ Last edited by  windof at 6-11-2006 04:51 PM ]

Robotech

Whether we like it, developing our defence industry is still more viable option in the long run.

At this point, we must concentrated our defense products to be mostly centered towards light APC/AFV, UAV, advanced patrol naval vessel, assault rifles & perhaps most importantly, develop our own SAM technology (as China is dangling with KS-1A tech transfer).

semarmesem

sorry to interrupt you guys, i think this is what the indonesian armed forces wanted.
I heard the singaporean and malaysian armed forces already operating a similar product from israel, but dont know which type. maybe you guys have some pics of them please posting?
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/w ... her2/Searcher2.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg44ISMMXRc

supergripen

Originally posted by semarmesem at 7-11-2006 12:34 AM
sorry to interrupt you guys, i think this is what the indonesian armed forces wanted.
I heard the singaporean and malaysian armed forces already operating a similar product from israel, but dont k ...

as far as i know,we don't operate any defence system from Israel..ast least not in the open.

reinloch

Originally posted by windof at 6-11-2006 04:44 PM
U talk only what u can see, of course the one u couldnt see u cannot talk. What Laxamana had said if u try to see clearly every each sentence (of course if u have to x-ray, by all means, just do it ...

To me?

Fact. Racism and nepotism are constants in this country. This undermines every effort we spend. Our local defense R & D efforts can also be characterized as mediocre at everything, excellent at none.