Is black, a color?

mbhcsf

oh? did anyone notice? Miss Zebra had appointed her spokestallion - Mr Zebra

Mansairaku

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 21-1-2009 11:01 PM
Hi Mr Zebra, what 's your color exactly?

striped .....

saden

pada aku kontroversi ni cuma akibat perbezaan frame of reference bila nak define what is color... tu aje. kalau define color pakai frame of reference dari segi cahaya punya wavelength, maka black bukan color pasal black tu absence of cahaya (kira out of bound of definition la kiranya).

tapi kalau kita define color pakai frame of reference kita punya otak yang interpret apa yg kita nampak, maka black tu kira color lah jugak pasal ia termasuk apa yg otak kita boleh interpret.

so, philosophical question; adakah apa yg aku nampak hijau tu sama dgn apa yg kau nampak hijau?

mbhcsf

so, philosophical question; adakah apa yg aku nampak hijau tu sama dgn apa yg kau nampak hijau?

depends on whether  your cone or rod cells in the eyes were are the same as mine and not to mention  whether you are free of perceptual problems.. or any form of agnosia [ apa ni cariiiiiiiiiiiii]

St.Yeepi

hitam itu adalah warna yang wujud, kerana hitam itu diperlukan ketika ketiadaan putih. Tanpa hitam dan putih, itu dinamakan kosong....

mbhcsf

eh tanpa hitam dan putih maka....hilanglah satu entiti  kan... ...hmmm it 's logical

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 09:00 PM


depends on whether  your cone or rod cells in the eyes were are the same as mine and not to mention  whether you are free of perceptual problems.. or any form of agnosia [ apa ni cariiiiiiii ...

heh... again you are trying to see from a scientific perspective measurable, definable, repeatable, falsifiable...

ok, imagine this, when i ask u how does green look like, u point me the forest. ok.. i see the forest, but who knows, my mind actually perceives what u call 'blue'. and since i don't know better, i call what i see as 'green' too, as per your teaching. so how do u reconcile that? remember, there is no internal conflict in my brain because when u point me the sky and u tell me it is blue, i call it blue too even though my brain actually sees 'green' or any other color.

the problem is what my mind is interpreting for me, not what the rod and cone cells do. and this brain interpretation cannot be shown to another person...

mbhcsf

u might try to ask the person to draw / sketch it  for you perhaps?

hmm?

but to a philosopher , like Mr socrates, Aristiotle,Mr plato, i wonder what would be their answer ...

saden

ok..mari kita extend sikit problem ni...

kita kata black bukan color pasal black is the absence of light.. orait... light is elecromagnetic radiation, ada wavelength and frequency.... kalau wavelength dia dalam range radio waves, microwaves, or even x-ray atau gamma ray.... dia ada color tak?

mbhcsf

u are colour blind? well that's what i said earlier given the fact that you have no perceptual and normal brain function. well it is stated in my postings above...u will see it  as  GREEN should u have no problem with ur eyes, ur DNA ( i .e u are not colour blind)  etc and of course no perceptual problem like agnosia...but then also

if you were an alien say from Mars then well just let say the Martian perception of "blue" spectral is actually "orange" i.e they label blue as "orange" THEN HMM...IT IS  of a conflict as the Earthlings would perceived thsi as "faulty learning" , right?

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 28-1-2009 11:31 PM


heh... again you are trying to see from a scientific perspective measurable, definable, repeatable, falsifiable...

ok, imagine this, when i ask u how does green look like, u point me th ...

the rods and the cones are important too as they are absorbing the spectrum / wavelength of lights... refer to colour blind cases...

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 11:36 PM
u might try to ask the person to draw / sketch it  for you perhaps?

hmm?

but to a philosopher , like Mr socrates, Aristiotle,Mr plato, i wonder what would be their answer ...

how can u draw color? u can draw shapes, but not color. color is what the brain sees for itself.

dah masuk metaphysical pulak ni... problem color ni berkait dgn konsep "individu". kalau nak define an 'individual', kita boleh define [individual == center of experience]. i can try to explain what i feel/experience to another individual, but i cannot be 100% sure that what i experience is totally the same as what another individual understands/feels it.

mbhcsf

Originally posted by saden at 28-1-2009 11:40 PM
ok..mari kita extend sikit problem ni...

kita kata black bukan color pasal black is the absence of light.. orait... light is elecromagnetic radiation, ada wavelength and frequency.... kalau wa ...

then my recasting question to you is , if that is not the case so why  on earth the radiotelescope, infrared  - based  raditelescope or whatever it is are being invented to look up , study those celestial objects/ entities?

heat ada colour tak?

the stars up the heaven above with different temperatures or even the dark matter in the outer space ..ada colour tak?

i like this discussion but i have no answers.... c'mon guys

the game is aFOOT...

mbhcsf

well the question is ..wuld u see my green as yours as well?

well if and only if you have normal rod , cones and also free of perceptual problems , well theoreticallu u might. but  if you have the agnosia ( recognition disoders ) then you would not...

brain interprets yes but brain is also receiving signals like lights, object orientation etc etc too from other senses...so ? well depends really ...i think as simple as that ...
how would u view ur green then?

if in the colour bling cases? how would the brain interpret the rightly "perceived" colour if there is genetic defects that affect the way the cones and rods are functioning?

[ Last edited by  mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 11:53 PM ]

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 11:41 PM
u are colour blind? well that's what i said earlier given the fact thatyou have no perceptual and normal brain function. well it is stated inmy postings above...u will see it  as  GREEN should u have no problemwith ur eyes, ur DNA ( i .e u are not colour blind)  etc and of courseno perceptual problem like agnosia...but then also

nothing at all about color blindness..

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 11:41 PM
if you were an alien say from Mars then well just let say the Martianperception of "blue" spectral is actually "orange" i.e they label blueas "orange" THEN HMM...IT IS  of a conflict as the Earthlings wouldperceived thsi as "faulty learning" , right?

now u are beginning to understand the problem.... but it is NOT a conflict because we wouldn't know that it is faulty learning.. remember, no internal conflicts in the brain? so whatever test u give them to detect any conflict will come out negative. as far as u can tell, they see as u see.

mbhcsf

well then tell me the rationales of those ISHIHARA plates were invented my dear...

mbhcsf

as i stated if the person is free from agnosia problems lah...then they will surely able to see green as green...haiyaa i have  mention in my postings....above

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 11:48 PM

then my recasting question to you is , if that is not the case so why  on earth the radiotelescope, infrared  - based  raditelescope or whatever it is are being invented to look up , study thos ...

heheh... all those pretty pictures that u see on nasa website is actually false color photography. kalau telescope tu bukan visible light telescope (radiowave, xray) dia ganti visible color (systematically la of course... sliding scale wavelength ke gitu).

so, what is the color of x-ray? ;)

mbhcsf

so then i would say our interpretation of things are pretty much relatives to what we are sensing

but then..it should be stadardised or normalised ( i .e the norms...) somewhere or else we would easily miss a seripsu condition that need to be looked at...if it is percertually - based disorder.

hmm...would not u agree?

saden

Originally posted by mbhcsf at 28-1-2009 11:55 PM
as i stated if the person is free from agnosia problems lah...then they will surely able to see green as green...haiyaa i have  mention in my postings....above

haha..u still don't understand the problem.

try looking at it this way... let's not say seeing green as green... but seeing green as like 'that'... and 'that' is what our brain shows to our soul.. is my 'that' the same as your 'that'?