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[quote]Kepercayaan atas nasakh tilawah sudah pasti adalah ia terjadi di masahidup Nabi saaw dan baginda saaw sendirilah yang memansukhkannya(1).Sebaliknya Abu Darda |
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[quote]Ubay berkata, 慐ngkau telah mengetahui bahwa aku masuk menemui Nabisaw., dan beliau mengajarkan kepadaku bacaan Al Qur抋n, sementarakalian berada di luar. Jika engkau kehendaki 杊ai Umar- aku membacakanAl Qur抋n seperti yang Nabi ajarkan kepadaku, maka aku akan mengajar AlQur抋n, jika tidak maka aku akan berhenti mengajar satu huruf pun AlQur抋n selama aku masih hidup!
Lalu Umar berkata, 慉jarkan Al Qur抋n kepada orang-orang. |
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1) Saya menyatakan bahawa (sesuai dengan keyakinan Syiah) al-Quran ygberlegar di dalam masyarakat Islam pada hari ini samasekali bebas dariperubahan (tahrif) pengurangan dan penambahan: ayat, kalimah, hurufetc... Ini adalah keyakinan Syiah Imamiyyah dan Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah.
bagaimana pula dengan keyakinan ulamak2 Syiah yg percayakan TAHRIF?
bila disuruh kemukakan ulamak ASWJ yg percayakan tahrif, bill xleh kemukakan...
hanya tafsir riwayat ASWJ dengan kepalanya sendiri sahaja...
Soalan dulu: siapakah ulamak ASWJ yg percayakan TAHRIF seperti yg bill dakwakan?
[ Last edited by GT0 at 3-7-2008 10:04 AM ] |
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2) Adapun tujuan thread ini dibuka ialah utk memfitnah kaum Syiahdengan sesuatu yg tidak mereka yakini.
nuri thabarsi, al-Qummi dll bukan Syiah ker?
Ini kerana (fahamkan betul pointini) wujudnya riwayat2 Tahrif dalam kitab2 mereka. Namun jika ditelitihal ini, ianya tidak dapat sama sekali dijadikan petunjuk benarnyafitnah mereka kerana riwayat tahrif dan penjelasannya adalah dua perkara yg berbeza sama sekali!
nuri thabarsi, al-Qummi dll lah orang2 yang menimbulkan fitnah bahawa Syiah percayakan TAHRIF...
mereka meriwayat dan memberikan penjelasan bahawa al-Quran sudah diTAHRIF.... tapi bill masih terhegeh2 dok kata Quran ni Xberlaku tahrif....
Jika kewujudan riwayat2 seperti ini dijadikan petunjuk bahawa Syiahmeyakini Tahrif, maka Syiah juga akan melakukan hal yg sama bahawaboleh saja Syiah mendakwa Sunni percayakan tahrif berdasarkan riwayat2tahrif yg ada dalam kitab2 Sunni (rujuk riwayat2 tahrif yg telahdibawakan di sini).
riwayat2 ASWJ yg membincangkan tilawah, nasikh mansukh semuanya didakwa bill sebagai tahrif... sedangkan xde sorangpun tuan punya (ulamak ASWJ) yang mengatakan begitu!
sedangkan...
riwayat Syiah yg membincangkan perihal bagaimana sahabat menTAHRIF al-Quran, dikatakan dan ditahqiq oleh ulamak Syiah sendiri sebagai TAHRIF dan bukannya sebagai mansukh @lain2...
Kerana itulah perbincangan ini berlanjutan terussampai ke hari ini. Namun jugdment kaum Anti Syiah ini hanyaberdasarkan kepada kitab2 hadis, padahal sekiranya mereka benar2 mahutahu apa pegangan Syiah dalam masalah akidah mereka, hendaklah merekamerujuk kepada kitab2 akidah muktabar mereka!
kitab mana yg muktabar? tafsir Qummi Xmuktabar ker? faslulkhitab tu Xmuktabar ker? dll.... |
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Menyampuk lagi yer.
Billionaire kata ASWJ pun ada berlaku tahrif dan dah kemukakan banyak bukti serta dalil riwayat dari ASWJ sendiri.
GTO pula kata semua tu bukan tahrif tapi cuma ayat2 yang dimansukhkan saja....betul ekk
Nak tanya klu macm tu banyaklah ayat2 quran yang dah dimansukhkan kan mengikut ASWJ kan?
Ada kawan iffah sorang kristian kata tak logiklah kalau tuhan sendiri takder pendirian masa turunkan wahyu. Iffah kata yang mansukh cuma ayat rejam saja tapi tak tahulah rupa2nya banyak juga ayat2 yang lain. Susahlah jawab camni. |
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Reply #145 serrefah's post
Aku pun nak menyampuk jugak.
Hmm... jadi mengikut kawan 'christ' kau tu, tuhan takdak pendirian time turunkan wahyu... justeru bodo la tuhan pasal kejap cakap camni, kejap lagi ehh... kensel lah pulak! Dulu dia turunkan Taurat, pastu Zabur, Pastu Injil, pastu Quran... Nape dia tak turunkan Quran sejak dulu lagi ya? Pakai yang tu sebijik je la dari dulu sampai sekarang.
Nampaknya memang newbie. Tahrif dan mansukh pun masih tak tau. |
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Cuba baca ni. Iffah x berminat nak berdebat atau bertengkar dan dari mula dah cakap. Takkan begitu banyak ayat2 yg mansukh seolah tidk logik tuhan tidak ada pendirian. Semua ayat2 yg mansukh ni hanya ada dalam riwayat Ahli sunnah saja kan? Sebab tu hadis2 tu tak betul agaknya dn mungkin perlu rujuk quran saja.
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We present here a list that highlights some of the many verses that have been abrogated. We are quite aware that not all Muslims believe that the Quran abrogates itself and would therefore reject the traditions presented here. Yet, the aim of our paper is to provide a handy list for Christians witnessing to or dialoguing with Muslims who do believe that the Quran abrogates itself. We want to provide evidence for those that do accept the authority of these sources. We chose to cite only the views of Muslim scholars where they identify the abrogated verses.
But before we do so, we would like to cite Brother Mark抯 quotation of Muslim scholar Ahmad Von Denffer regarding the conflicting views held by Muslim scholars over the precise nature of abrogation:
Von Denffer defines it clearly as:
"What is Abrogated?
According to some scholars the Qur抋n abrogates only the Qur抋n. They base their view on suras 2:106 and 16:101. According to them the Qur抋n does not abrogate the sunna nor does the sunna abrogate the Qur抋n. This is, in particular, the view held by Shafi抜.
Others are of the opinion that the Qur抋n may abrogate the Qur抋n as well as the sunna. They base their view on Sura 53:3-4.
There is also the view that there are four classes of naskh:
1 Qur抋n abrogates Qur抋n.
2 Qur抋n abrogates sunna.
3 Sunna abrogates Qur抋n.
4 Sunna abrogates sunna." (Ulum, Von Denffer, p. 107f)
The 慺ounding |
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SAHIH BUKHARI
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 13:
Narrated Al-Bara:
The Prophet prayed facing Bait-ulMaqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) for sixteen or seventeen months but he wished that his Qibla would be the Ka'ba (at Mecca). (So Allah Revealed (2.144) and he offered 'Asr prayers (in his Mosque facing Ka'ba at Mecca) and some people prayed with him. A man from among those who had prayed with him, went out and passed by some people offering prayer in another mosque, and they were in the state of bowing. He said, "I, (swearing by Allah,) testify that I have prayed with the Prophet facing Mecca." Hearing that, they turned their faces to the Ka'ba while they were still bowing. Some men had died before the Qibla was changed towards the Ka'ba. They had been killed and we did not know what to say about them (i.e. whether their prayers towards Jerusalem were accepted or not). So Allah revealed:-- "And Allah would never make your faith (i.e. prayer) to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered (towards Jerusalem). Truly Allah is Full of Pity, Most Merciful towards mankind." (2.143)
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 32:
Narrated 'Ata:
That he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting the Divine Verse:--
"And for those who can fast they had a choice either fast, or feed a poor for every day.." (2.184) Ibn 'Abbas said, "This Verse is not abrogated, but it is meant for old men and old women who have no strength to fast, so they should feed one poor person for each day of fasting (instead of fasting).
The next two traditions disagree with Ibn Abbas |
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SAHIH MUSLIMBook 001, Number 0228:
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that when it was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him): To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and whether you disclose that which is in your mind or conceal it, Allah will call you to account according to it. Then He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He Pleases; and Allah is over everything Potent" (ii. 284). the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) felt it hard and severe and they came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and sat down on their knees and said: Messenger of Allah, we were assigned some duties which were within our power to perform, such as prayer, fasting, struggling (in the cause of Allah), charity. Then this (the above-mentioned) verse was revealed unto you and it is beyond our power to live up to it. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intend to say what the people of two books (Jews and Christians) said before you: "We hear and disobey"? You should rather say: "We hear and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord! and unto Thee is the return." And they said: "We hear and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord! and unto Thee is the return." When the people recited it and it smoothly flowed on their tongues, then Allah revealed immediately afterwards: "The Apostle believes in that which is sent down unto him from his Lord, and so do the believers. Each one believes in Allah and His Angels and His Books and His Apostles, saying: We differentiate not between any of His Apostles and they say: We hearken and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord! and unto Thee is the return" (ii. 285). When they did that, Allah abrogated this (verse) and the Great, Majestic Allah revealed: "Allah burdens not a soul beyond its capacity. It gets every good that it earns and it suffers every ill that it earns. Our Lord, punish us not if we forget or make a mistake." (The Prophet said Yes, our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us. (The Prophet said Yes, our Lord, impose not on us (burdens) which we have not the strength to bear (The Prophet said Yes, and pardon us and grant us protection! and have mercy on us. Thou art our Patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people" (ii. 286). He (the Lord) said: Yes.
Book 003, Number 0675:
Abu al. 'Ala' b. al-Shikhkhir said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) abrogated some of his commands by others, just as the Qur'an abrogates some part with the other.
Book 004, Number 1317:
Al-Bara' b. 'Azib reported: This verse was revealed (in this way): "Guard the prayers and the 'Asr prayer." We recited it (in this very way) so long as Allah desired. Allah, then, abrogated it and it was revealed: "Guard the prayers, and the middle prayer." A person who was sitting with Shaqiq (one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters) said: Now it implies the 'Asr prayer. Upon this al-Bara' said: I have already informed you how this (verse) was revealed and how Allah abrogated it, and Allah knows best. Imam Muslim said: Ashja'i narrated it from Sufyan al-Thauri, who narrated it from al-Aswad b. Qais, who narrated it from 'Uqba, who narrated it from al-Bara' b. 'Azib who said: We recited with the Prophet (may peace be upon him) (the above-mentioned verse like this, i. e. instead of Salat al- Wusta, Salat al-'Asr) for a certain period, as it has been mentioned (in the above-quoted hadith).
Hadith number in Sahih Muslim [Arabic only]: 1233
'A'ishah's Hadith, may Allah be pleased with her.
Zurarah reported: Sa'd bin Hisham bin 'Amir decided to participate in an expedition in the cause of Allah. When he came to Medina, he met some of its people. They dissuaded him from doing such a thing, and informed him that a group of six men had decided to do so during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade them to do it, and asked: Is there not in me a good example for you? And when they narrated this to him (Sa'd bin Hisham), he returned to his wife, though he had divorced her and made (people) witness to his reconciliation. He then came to Ibn 'Abbas and asked him about the Witr of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). Ibn 'Abbas asked: Should I not lead you to one who knows best among the people of the world about the Witr of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? He asked: Who is it? He (Ibn 'Abbas) said: It is 'A'ishah. So go to her and ask her (about Witr) and then come to me and inform me about the answer that she would give you. So I came to Hakim bin Aflah and requested him to take me to her. He said: I would not go to her, for I forbade her to speak anything (about the conflict) between the two groups, but she refused (to accept my advice) and went (to participate in that conflict). I (requested) him (Hakim) with an oath to lead me to her. So we went to 'A'ishah and we begged permission to meet her. She granted us permission and we went in. She asked: Are you Hakim? (She recognized him). He replied: Yes. She asked: Who is there with you? He said: He is Sa'd bin Hisham. She asked: Which Hisham? He said: He is Hisham bin 'Amir. She blessed him ('Amir) with mercy from Allah and spoke good of him (Qatadah said that he died as a martyr in Uhud). I said: Mother of the Believers, tell me about the character of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). She asked: Do you not read the Qur'an? I said: Yes. Upon this she said: The character of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was the Qur'an. He said: I felt inclined to get up and not ask anything (further) till I die. But then I changed my mind and said: Inform me about the observance (of the Night Prayer) of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). She asked: Did you not recite: "O you wrapped up"? He said: Yes. She said:Allah, the Exalted and the Glorious, made the observance of the Night Prayer at the beginning of this surah obligatory. So the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and his Companions around him observed this (Night Prayer) FOR ONE YEAR. Allah held back the concluding portion of this surah FOR TWELVE MONTHS in the heaven till (at the end of this period) Allah revealed the concluding verses of this surah which lightened (the burden of this Prayer), and the Night Prayer became a supererogatory Prayer after being an obligatory one. I said: Mother of the Believers, inform me about the Witr of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) she said: I used to prepare tooth stick for him, water for his ablution, and Allah would rouse him to the extent He wished during the night. He would use the tooth stick, and perform ablution, and would offer nine rak'ahs and would not sit but in the eighth one and would remember Allah, and praise Him and supplicate Him, then he would get up without uttering the salutation and pray the ninth rak'ah. He would then sit, remember Allah, praise Him and supplicate Him and then utter a salutation loud enough for us to hear. He would then pray two rak'ahs sitting after uttering the salutation and that made eleven rak'ahs. O my son, but when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) grew old and put on flesh, he observed Witr of seven, doing in the two rak'ahs as he had done formerly, and that made nine. O my son, and when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed the Prayer, he liked to keep on observing it, and when sleep or pain overpowered him and made it impossible (for him) to observe the Prayer at night, he prayed twelve rak'ahs during the day. I am not aware of Allah's Prophet (may peace be upon him) having recited the whole Qur'an during one single night, or praying through the night till morning, or fasting a complete month except Ramadan. He (the narrator) said: I then went to Ibn 'Abbas and narrated to him the Hadith (transmitted from her), and he said: She says the truth If I went to her and got into her presence, I would have listened to it orally from her. He said: If I were to know that you do not go to her, I would not have transmitted this Hadith to you narrated by her. (Source; Arabic text)
Book 004, Number 1433:
Anas b. Malik reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) invoked curse in the morning (prayer) for thirty days upon those who killed the Companions (of the Holy Prophet) at Bi'r Ma'una. He cursed (the tribes) of Ri'l, Dhakwan, Lihyan, and Usayya, who had disobeyed Allah and His Messenger (may peace be upon him). Anas said: Allah the Exalted and Great revealed (a verse) regarding those who were killed at Bi'r Ma'una, and we recited it, till it was abrogated later on (and the verse was like this):, convey to it our people the tidings that we have met our Lord, and He was pleased with us and we were pleased with Him".
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Nampaknya memang newbie. Tahrif dan mansukh pun masih tak tau.
sabar, cik sarifah kita kena hormat. walaupun newbie mungkin dia banyak tau. atau mungkin dia acah-acah ajer kita tu.
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yang ni tak payah bawa sini ler. ni bawa ke RSF cukup ler dah. dah jenuh dah orang sini.
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Von Denffer defines it clearly as:
Brother Mark continues:
Yang ni pun tak yah bawak ler. Boleh jer cari bismillahakuma, answering-christianity, islamonline, islam-awareness. Semua ada jawapan ni. Sebijik sebijik.
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Saya rasa Cik Sharifah kena discuss samada Nasakh dan Mansukh berlaku. Boleh start thread lain. Kalau tidak nanti jadi topik dalam topik. |
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[quote]Originally posted by ibnur at 3-7-2008 12:28 AM 
QUOTE:
揓angan sekali-kali seorang dari kalian mengatakan, 慉ku telah mengambil (menghafal) seluruh Al Quran! |
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Sememangnya kamu ni punya masalah peribadi dengan Sdr. Ibnu Jakfari? Jika benar, saya sarankan anda nyatakan terus kepada beliau dan tak perlu bawa ke sini.
jakfari wordpress menjawab sidogiri. Ada tak sesiapa sini copy paste dari sidogiri? ni bukan masaalah peibadi. ni masaalah kredibiliti. cuba bawakan text penuh dari rujukan yang jakfari bawa. kitab itqaan tu ajer dah cukup. jakfari tak bawakan tafsir suyuthi tapi sebaliknya buat tafsir sendiri.
[ Last edited by ibnur at 4-7-2008 10:37 AM ] |
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Reply #153 ibnur's post
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Sebab tu suruh fahamkan perbicaraan yg saya bawa dengan teliti, sebab saya dah berulangkali cakap riwayat tak sama dengan penjelasan! So sekarang, ada ke Ibnu Jakfari kata beliau mengatakan bahawa Suyuthi mengakui adanya tahrif? |
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Reply #152 billionaire's post
saya harap bill dpt jwb rujukan2 tahrif syi'ah dulu sblm sy ttp thread nie....
Hanya sekadar mahukan penjelasan... Bagaimanakah syiah akan b'hadapan dgn ulamak2 mereka yg b'iman dgn tahrif...
Lagi pun bill sendiri kata yg bill xpercayakan TAHRIF... Jadi, Bagaimana pula dgn sekian ramai ulamak2 muktabar Syiah tersebut yg b'aqidah bhw al-Quran sudah berlaku tahrif? Apa status org yg percaya al-Quran ni tidak sempurna? Bagaimanapula dgn hadits2 mutawatir meng'itsbat'kan TAHRIF yg mencecah 2000 hadits byknya itu pula?! (nuri thabarsi, faslulkhitab)
Sejak dr page 1 lg sy sudah terangkan.. Bahawa 'TAHRIF' tidak pernah didapati dari ulamak ASWJ dulu kini dan selama2nya pun... Kalau ada, kemukakan ulamak ASWJ mana yg percayakan tahrif sepertimana ulamak muktabar syiah mempercayainya....
Dan.. |
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Reply #154 billionaire's post
kitab Al-Itqaan fi 慤luumil Qur抋n imam suyuthi tu ceritakan mengenai sejarah Al-Quran bukannya tahrif. Hanya jakfari saja guna untuk buat cerita kononnya para sahabat buat tahrif guna riwayat palsu. walaupun imam sayuthi tulis dalam kitabnya tak bermakna dia kata berlaku tahrif. tu sebabnya kena bawa text penuh imam sayuthi, bukan sekerat-sekerat dari jakfari pastu potong lagi berkerat-kerat dalam CARI forum.
walau macamana pun dah terpampang dalam thread ni dari website syiah sendiri, dari kitab syiah sendiri, ulamak syiah bercerita quran yang ada ni telah ditahrif oleh para sahabat. walaupun itu cerita lama, tapi significantnya kepada umat semasa zaman dia orang tu yg penting. |
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dr page 1 jugak ler bill bawakan riwayat ASWJ dan mentafsirkannya mengikut tafsiran jakfari.wordpress... Bukannya tafsiran dr tuan punya kitab bahkan musuhnya... |
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Reply #154 billionaire's post
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dan dgn sbb riwayat dan penjelasan 2 perkara yg berbeza tu ler sy srh bill kemukakan siapakah ulamak ASWJ yg percayakan tahrif! Kalau sekadar nukil riwayatnya, pastu buat penjelasan sendiri apejadahnyer bill! |
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ini berbeza dgn ulamak2 muktabar syiah... Mereka meriwayatkan riwayat2 yg jelas menunjukkan tahrif dan mereka juga berpegang dgn 'aqidah tahrif tersebut! Sbb tu lah kita dapati dalam ajaran syiah sekian ramainya ulamak2 muktabar mereka yg percayakan tahrif... Contohnya karangan nuri thabarsi, tafsir Qummi dll... Perkara ini tidak kita dapati walaupun seorg ulamak muktabar ASWJ yg pernah berpendapat demikian... Buktinya, sehingga hari ini, bill masih xleh kemukakan walaupun seorg ulamaka ASWJ yg percayakan tahrif... |
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Reply #154 billionaire's post
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dan dgn sbb riwayat dan penjelasan 2 perkara yg berbeza tu ler sy srh bill kemukakan siapakah ulamak ASWJ yg percayakan tahrif! Kalau sekadar nukil riwayatnya, pastu buat penjelasan sendiri apejadahnyer bill! |
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Post time 3-7-2008 09:36 AM
Author
Post time 3-7-2008 10:58 PM
