M-MRCA utk TUDM

hyazinth79

aku rasa kita akan pilih mig 35 ngan gripen sebagai calon utama, mig sebab sbg satu option utk tukar mig 29, dari 18 mig 29 tukar kepada 6 buah dan ditambah 18  lg mig 35 jd jumlahnya 24, sebab selama ni pun mmg ada rancangan tuk tukar mig 29, gripen pulak dipilih sebab sistem integrasi ngan pesawat awacs yg mungkin dari saab juga, lg pun pembelian gripen membolehkan tudm menyertai latihan udara di europe sebagaimana thai.

supergripen

Originally posted by mentosonline at 28-2-2008 06:49 PM
Perhaps though the biggest advantage of the Gripen is it's short take-off characteristics and ability to operate from a short strip of road and a trailer.

add to that advanced avionics,small size,very good maneauverability,superb performance and ample space for future upgrades.

recent SwAF and HunAF participations in numerous ADEXs proves that the Gripen has superior agility against current F-16s,M2000s and F-18s.it has also proven to have a very good radar where Gripens operated by new Hungarian pilots was able to master the radar very easily,outperforming F-16Cs,Tornados and even the Typhoon in AA.they said the radar's performance combined with the Gripen's small size enabled them to pinpoint,prioritize and engage the others even before the opponents knew what was happening..note that these were under exercise rules with no datalink allowed.it was also the only aircraft there with 100% reliability/availability performance.

what puzzled analysts was that while the Gripen has an inferior TW ratio when compared to most others,the Gripen seems to defy that fact by having very good accelleration surpassing that of many with more superior TW ratio,and also seemed to lose little if any speed during sustained and unsustained high-G turns.mind u,this is with the RM12/F404.. imagine what the F414 can do to the Gripen.also,the SwAF has also found out accidently that the Gripen could supercruise with AAMs attached.this was evident when SwAF pilots accidently went supersonic without engaging afterburner,surprising the Swedish public on the ground with sonic booms.this was attributed to an old habit with the heavy Viggen where quite a high thrust setting was required for certain situations..with the Gripen,they actually accidently went supersonic!

its not too difficult to imagine that the Gripen,with future improvements,will make a superb choice for a 1st tier fighter,let alone 2nd tier.for a country like ours with a limited defence budget,its simply unbeatable.

belacan79

SuperGripen,

I know you loving the Gripen. But i want to explein something untuk pengetahuan semua. Air exercises the one you describe abof called DACTs atau Dissimilar Air Combat Training .  You have red team and blue team. Red is usualy agresor and supose to lose. Red can be a f-22 and still lose. So, this is no way to tell the Gripen is beter than F22, Typhoon, Rafale, F16, Mig, Su-30, etc. When the kombat jet go up, Red will not be able to use all it sistem ,for example, redar,  BVR misel, EW sistem dan macam-macam lagi. Red can also have few kombat jet like 2 Red agresor kombat jet versus 7 Blue agresor kombat jet.

This is becuz the objecktif is to test certain sistems on blue side to the maximum and not to see which kombat jet is beter. Blue can use all the sistem for exampel or most of it. There are lot of restriction in DACT so this is no way to tell which kombat jet is beter. It is way to test out sistems. Not to see which kombat jet is beter. For exampel, the F15 and Su-30 exercise in india involveing 2 F15C with redar turned off, EW sistem turned off and no AWAC and no Amraam versus 6 Sukhoi-30 MKI with Awac, redar, bvr misel, etc.

You must also not ferget that posibel rival kompanys or nations will not turn on all thier sistem fully during exercise. For exampel, both the Typhoon and Su-30 from india did not turn on redar fully during the exercise. This is becuz nobody want to let the other side know too much.

But nationalist media like to boast about thier national kombat jet when they hear of it of course. For exampel, Gripen beat Typhoon. Or old Tornado beat Mirage 2000. But what reported is only 1/2 truth. Hope it help!!

Hear read more about it;

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1157

I agree Gripen is good but so are other kombat jet. my take is to go for Su-35 or more Su-30s.

[ Last edited by  belacan79 at 16-3-2008 08:07 PM ]

windof

su35 and su30 are both heavy mrca, the choice is clear, we'd made our decision by choosing the su30, perhaps more will be included soon, we could even upgrade them to 35 standard if we wanna to.. this discussion is about choosing the best mmrca for rmaf, which, put the sukhoi aside, shall consist of the ones in the polling list or maybe some other medium size new fighters if you wanna add on. it's about having a 2nd tier mrca for rmaf which is potent enuf to counter any threat of future air warfare. hope this will clear everyones stand.

mentosonline

Sindex was also an example of DACT.
Our F-16s were denied permission to use AMRAAMs or have AWACS support.

There are also some equipment that cannot be used in peacetime. USAF F-15Es are banned from using the full power of their jammers in exercises as there are hardware and health risks involved on the targeted ra** and personnel. They are actually rumoured of being able to simply 'fry' enemy electronics (similar effects as emp).

belacan79

Su-30 canot be upgreded to Su-35 as there are physical diferences between the two but we can buy them in the futere when released for sale by Rusia.

In this case , i chose mig-35 for second tier.

Kenapa? cut down logistik isue. F18 from US, Gripen from Sweden, amerchi from Italy, Hawk from UK, Su-30 from Rusia, etc plus sistem part from France, South africa, UK, US, Rusia, Italy, etc....

beter do not have so many item from so many countri.

belacan79

There are also some equipment that cannot be used in peacetime.

Korect. Exampel is redar and electronik signature is veri sensitif. For exampel, most times in exercises kombat jet do not fully on redar so that other countris do not track and safe this redar signature for futere kombat use.

[ Last edited by  belacan79 at 16-3-2008 07:54 PM ]

windof

maybe by the time rmaf inducts the mmrca, it wont be a rojak force anymore. should consist of only the su30, the mmrca and 1 type of ajt. maybe the mechi lift will only be used for transition from basic trainer to fighter b4 move on to the ajt and then the mrca. base on the prospect of having the su30 and mmrca, what ajt could be the best to suit these and most probable country to buy from? something euro-russian perhaps?

supergripen

thanx for bringing that up.. FYI 2 Gripens and 2 F-16Cs were actually the Red Force with the opposing Blue consisting of various types as i have mentioned.granted there were rules to be followed but it was at the Red's disadvantage.

i understand where u're coming from.. but i didn't say the Gripen was better or vice versa,merely sharing some infos that i've found in various forums overseas.

and maybe u've forgotten,the thread is to discuss the M-MRCA requirement,not H-MRCA.

but good point raised,thanx.

belacan79

thanx for bringing that up.. FYI 2 Gripens and 2 F-16Cs were actually the Red Force with the opposing Blue consisting of various types as i have mentioned.granted there were rules to be followed but it was at the Red's disadvantage.

No preblem. sometime if i know a bit i will sharing with mpsa.

It does not meter who is Red Force or who is blue force. The exercise is done on the move. All/some of the adventeges can be shifts to blue or red forces on the move. For exampel,  a Typhoon can be asked to sudenly turn on redar or EW sistem. Or Gripen or Typhoon is asked to slow down speed and use sub-sonic speed only. In one harrier fight against Mig-29 in Europe for exampel, Mig-29 was asked to use sub-sonic speed only and redar and no no bvr misel. Anyway, this thing we will never know becuz releaseing of such info is forbiden and must be aproved first.

So, in realiti, it is impossibel to draw a concluson which kombat jet is beter in such exercise. This exercises are not planed to show which kombat jet is beter.

A few things officialy release to media sometime. But more for local people reading becuz it help morale. Like Gripen shoot down typhoon. Very nice to hear for Sweden people. But of course, swedish peopel do not need the real details and true story. Somestimes, some other thing also leaked to media acidentally. But never the official exercise rules in full. All this are agreed secret before start of exercise between two countris.

But i agree wif you. Gripen is a good kombat jet.

[ Last edited by  belacan79 at 16-3-2008 07:56 PM ]

belacan79

what ajt could be the best to suit these and most probable country to buy from? something euro-russian perhaps?

My fav...this T-50 Golden Eagel.




[size=90%]



General characteristics

• Crew: 2
• Length: 42 ft 7 in (12.98 m)
• Wingspan: 30 ft 1 in (9.17 m)
• Height: 15 ft 8.25 in (4.78 m)
• Empty weight: 14,200 lb (6,441 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 26,400 lb (11,985 kg)
• Powerplant: 1

superhornet

Kenaper eik kiter tak masukkan sekali T-50 nie dalam senarai ..

yaminz

hijazzains

When will this so called M-MRCA expected to come into service.20 years from now?

For the type of aircraft, I agree that the Gripen is the best choice. The Thais selected it because it's cheap to operate and very versatile in terms of future upgrades and because of the Erieye. Saab gave them a very generous deal.

I am sure Saab would offer a good deal to RMAF too.A

supergripen

Originally posted by hijazzains at 21-3-2008 06:45 PM
When will this so called M-MRCA expected to come into service.20 years from now?

For the type of aircraft, I agree that the Gripen is the best choice. The Thais selected it because it's cheap  ...

i really do hope they offer us deal that we can't ignore.. true,in terms of operational cost the Gripen's is only 1/3 that of the F-16 but further than that,the Gripen has also got tremendous abilities with so much potential in many ways than one.future potential for upgrades are endless and i guess this is whats important in choosing our next gen fighter.we don't want something that'll be obselete in a few years time,do we?

there's so much to be gained for such a 'relatively cheap' platform.

chuckky

My opinion, kerajaan simpan je duit budget kalau ada utk beli super hornet, MMRCAetc. Wait and Go to the most  advance like JSF atau pesawat gen ke 5 yg sebenarnya dr Russia.

hijazzains

From what I red, The Swedes Air Force played cat and mouse game with the Soviets during the cold war. meaning that Gripen were made to counter larger and dangerous adversaries like Migs and Sukes from Russia and and in RMAF sutuation probably F-15 and Sukes from neighbouring countries.Thailand made a wonderful choice selecting their gripen,probably the natural enemy to our Su-30mkm plus with the Eriye, nullifies perhaps all advantages Su-30MKM have over the Gripen.

[ Last edited by  hijazzains at 22-3-2008 12:42 PM ]

hijazzains

Hello, saya ada terbaca yang EW suite Su-30MKM sama dengan export version Gripen punya EW suite. Betul ke?Kalo begitu, Gripen ni macam adik kepada SU-30MKM?

[ Last edited by  hijazzains at 22-3-2008 01:36 PM ]

supergripen

indeed... information superiority is where the Gripen scores highly.couple the Erieye with the Gripen's datalink capability,u'll have quite a formidable adversary on ur hands,something our Sukhois will have to think about when faced with Gripens from the north.

hijazzains

Gripen is mainly for defense rather than offense. God forbid the Su-30MKM go against Gripen coz it'll be likely we're the ones attacking Thailand.

But because Gripen is purely for defense, it's perfect for RMAF nature.

Another reason what I like about Gripen is that it can be handled by conscripts/non professionals for refueling/maintenance and can land on highways. Also perfect for Malaysia which have unlimited highways. Cheap to operate and maintain and can fly from almost anywhere for Malaysia's case.

As for other options listed in thsi thread besides Gripen, I have to say Gripen's my only choice. I dun wanna have anything with Chinese military products coz they seem wanna screw us with low products like KS-1.Meanwhile I ave given up on any Migs since we're having bad time with Mig-29 and I red even Algeria last year rejected Mig-29 over bad quality control.If the Thais can afford Gripen why can't we?Get Gripen packaged with Erieye!!!