The Koran and the Jews

no one ,however ,pointed out that
most modern jews who espoused zionism are not the original 'seeds'. notice how most jews (even like Woody Allen & most well known ones) are pale and white skin.

These people are the ashkenazi jews..
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One aspect that has kept Jews together for 5000 years is the belief that each Jew is a descendant of Abraham, meaning that each Jew is a member of God's chosen people. Further, most practicing Jews believe that they are related in some form or another to every other Jew in the world. In fact, people have even agreed on physical characteristics that define a Jew anywhere in the world, the most famous of which being the "Jewish nose."

However, history shows that this cannot be farther from the truth. The original Jews were the ancient Hebrews, these were the people that were led out of Egypt, wandered in the desert for 40 years, yada yada, you know the story. These people were able to stick together, and due to certain historical events, the descendants of these people since antiquity have been living in Spain. This group is known as the Sephardim since "Sephard" in Hebrew is Spain. In recent times however, the Sephardic Jews have dispersed all over the world including the U.S. and Israel. In the 1970s it was calculated that there were about half a million Sephardic Jews living in the world. It was also calculated that there about 11 million Jews in the world who did not have ancestry to this select group.


The bulk of these 11 million were the Ashkenazi "Jews". These are the people that almost all the "Jews" from Eastern Europe ,USSR and Balkan region. The origins of these people were unrelated to the origins of the Sephardic Jews, meaning that Ashkenazi have no relation to the original Hebrews.

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PLS do not further your discussion about chosen people unless you know what a real  jew is. I can say i am belong to one of the lost tribes of israel and that i practice judaism. i eat kosher product. i put a popiah on my head? i grow a beard; am i a jew? does that make me a chosen one?

[ Last edited by whitepig on 29-6-2004 at 09:35 AM ]

Originally posted by whitepig at 2004-6-29 09:33 AM:
no one ,however ,pointed out that
most modern jews who espoused zionism are not the original 'seeds'. notice how most jews (even like Woody Allen & most well known ones) are pale and white ski ...

Yes, so very true.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm

Debmey

Wicked,

And we have shown both from the Bible and from the Quran that samerosie's arguments are ridiculous and she was trying decive by pulling a fast one.


WP

This Ashkenazi Jew being not Hebrew theory has been debunked by science long ago. The genetics shows up that they are Hebrew. I go by logic and facts, not hearsay.
And in case yu are not aware,many Ashkenazi Jews do detain their semitic features. Ski color is only a miniscule part of total genetics blueprint.
Do yu know that many arabs have strong Indian, Negro or Caucasian features too? Do you know that the variation in genes betwee all Jews is much lesser than the variation in genes amog arabs themselves?

Debmey

yes i have adam gene's too and if u dig long enuff u might find a few eve genes too. LOLL

Debmey

Noe of these target civilians,no terrorism at all. Wat else?

wat else? you're sleep walking wat else..

And we have shown both from the Bible and from the Quran that samerosie's arguments are ridiculous and she was trying decive by pulling a fast one.
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Am not pulling a fast one and who is this "WE"?  As I see, Adm has been doing all the work, and you just echoing from behind.

Can you "show" us the why in Genesis 1:1-19 how God could could separate the light and day on the first day and grow vegetation and plants on the third day when He had only created the sun, moon and stars on the fourth day?

Plus, you still haven't explain what is the diference between a sunnah and a hadith.

Debmey

So can yu please your lies that were exposed by Admiral?

Debmey

BTW, confirmed, samrosie is a muslim.

This will be terribly LONG so bear with me OK, and thank you for your attn.

On June 23, you uttered "the Children of Israel are meant to be in exiles until doomsday" to show your disagreement that the Koran refers only to the exiles but leaves it open for their return. To strengthen your assertion, you mentioned they would be punished twice. After that, God will gather/assemble them IN the promised land at the signs of End of Days commence.

I have explained to you earlier why I believe what I had said to you previously and I don抰 think I want to repeat it for the fourth time but for your sake I shall say it again for the last time.

I said that I agree but I抦 sorry that you do not understand that it 搖ntil doomsday

To justify the 2 punishments, you said "There has been 2 disapora, firstly being the conquest of Jerusalem by the Assyrians and secondly by the Romans". As we know, Jerusalem was NEVER conquered by the Assyrians.

Fine, let抯 leave out the Assyrians.  Let抯 just take the Babylonians and the Romans.  For the sake of earlier arguments, let抯 just base it on the Quran and history of Jerusalem (with web links, non Muslim source, for reference as I do not have my books with me).

Quran chapter 17:
And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants (verse 4)

So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed. (verse 5)

Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.  Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). (verse 6)

So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting. (verse 7)

Jerusalem History (taken from http://www.jerusalem.muni.il)
586 BCE
On the ninth day of Av, the Babylonian King destroyed the first temple and exiled the inhabitants of the city

Next, if Roman expulsion were to be the 2nd punishment, it would refer to the 2nd exile. It did not support the idea Jews should remain exiled because God would be unable to gather them IN the promised land if they are NOT IN the promised land. Therefore, the Koran leaves it open for their return is justified. Thus, this justification is BOTH crippled & contraditory.

I see where you are getting.  You see it this way, 搃f they remained exiled since Roman, how could God gather them in the promised land if they are not there in the first place

More contradiction follows. Just a day passed, June 24, you gave another confusing statement. You said " The second diaspora happened when Nebuchanezzar conquered Jerusalem...". Prior to this, you assert that the 2nd punishment was fulfilled by the Romans then pointed out by me it contradicts with your idea that Jews should remain exiled until doomsday because modern day Arabs would have transgressed the prophesy keeping Jews in exile from the promised land for the 3rd time! Perhaps it explains your vacillates that Babylonians is now the 2nd punishment not the Romans to support your later notion that God would take back whenever Jews sinned. Nonetheless, this suggestion is utterly flawed because it can't explain the dispersion by the Romans which would reduced Koran's prophesy credibility & holiness. Romans gave the 3rd punishment & exile. Modern day Arab punishment & exile being the 4th! Even so, it only refers to the 2 punishments & exiles, it still did not say in the Koran, Jews cannot return and should remain exiled because God would be unable to gather them IN the promised land if they are NOT IN the promised land.

OK, for the sake of not making the argument lengthy and for the sake of not including the Assyrian conquest of Israel, I shall say that I was wrong in saying that the Babylonian exile was the second exile.

June 28, you had finally concluded the 2nd punishment had passed by the Romans alluding that no temple has been rebuilt since. Again, it only refers to the exiles.

See above.

At this juncture, your premise is based on Temple being destroyed twice meant twice being punished. However, you offered an alternative consideration that Jews had always been conquered as justification that God had punished them more than twice not instead of warnings. Unfortunately, this does not result in Diaspora are more apt to prophesy of punishments - twice being driven out. Thus, this assumption is flawed to suggest Jews are under punishment again to be remained exiled rather than Arabs intransigence, greed & bigotry. Moreover, the said examples (Joshua & David conquest) had been fulfilled.

You missed the bit about what I said with regards to Jewish relation with the outside world, as the Hebrews during Joshua抯 time and the Jews during David抯 time were still together in a flock, not dispersed.

And as I have said, for the last time I hope, ACCORDING to the Quran, there are 2 punishments.  The first time was when their first temple was destroyed and we know the Babylonians did that, and second punishment the same thing happened, the Romans did it.  BUT, the Quran also said, they will be great tyrants.  NOW, IF we take this bit as a separate issue (as I have explained earlier that I read it as that from the Quran chapter) we know that the Jews have always been conquered but they have never conquered (APART from Joshua conquering Canaan and David抯 conquering the smaller cities around his Kingdom) until recently when the state of Israel was created in 1947 (that they become tyrants, killing and illegally occupying other people抯 land when the OT have said, thou shall not murder, thy shall not steal, thy shall not covet thy neighbour抯 house etc)

Thus, this assumption is flawed to suggest Jews are under punishment again to be remained exiled

I said the Quran never mentioned of a 3rd punishment, only you concluded being exiled is the third punishment because of the common theme of being exiled which is understanably fair for you to assert this.

And, about still being exile, didn抰 the God in OT said that if they obey His commandments they will be love and all their prayers will be answered?  Didn抰 He say that He is a jealous God and that He will punish the children of the sins of the fathers

The fact is YOU DON'T KNOW. But you insists anyway based on your own perception. How can you be sure their return isn't God's arrangement? For God's sake look at Israel. It had formed! Again for God's sake see who loses in each wars. Back to the question, how can you be sure when you're not sure? LOL!

Yeah that's right, how about quoting Hosea again eh?

That's Koran's testament. Jews are the rightful owners. They ARE returning.

That's not what the OT said :ting:

As for the Genesis, you're wasting time because God made His covenant specifically to Abraham through Isaac. In fact, your posts already provided you with the answers. Even before Isaac was born God already mentioned his name SPECIFICALLY. End story.

That抯 right end of story.  Tell me, when someone says the Muslims are quacks because they only follow the Quran blindly, what do you call someone who follow the Bible blindly?

Ishmael has his own nations NOT the promised land. Lastly, Genesis talk is useless in this topic because...we're talking about Koran testament to Jewish rights. Genesis is not wat is being discussed. More add-ons serves no purpose in this thread. Each story has its own topic.

Didn抰 I showed you the verses in the Bible where God has promised Abraham that his descendants would get the land even before Isaac was borne and while Abraham was with Ishamel?  Didn抰 I showed you the verses how a person was counted as the offspring of Abraham?  Didn抰 I showed you the verses that despite the promises God had made to Abraham and his descendants about the long list of lands which was given to them, and of course, SPECIFICALLY mentioned Isaac and Jacob, they had still paid for the land?  At least, Joshua was smarter, he got it right the first time, he made the Canaan pay instead of him paying them for the land.

[ Last edited by samerosie on 29-6-2004 at 12:05 PM ]

Originally posted by Debmey at 29-6-2004 10:35 AM:
BTW, confirmed, samrosie is a muslim.

not yet my friend, the confirmation doesnt come from her.

So can yu please your lies that were exposed by Admiral
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You have yet to explain to me about Genesis 1.  Come on!

BTW, confirmed, samrosie is a muslim.
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Is that right?  So, judging from your posts, can I confirm that you are a daft?

samerosie please clarify your religion.
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I am lucky that I have both worlds.  

My religion is submitting to the One and Only God, I believe the God in OT is God of Redemption and the God in NT is the God of salvation (but I do not believe that Jesus is son of God) and I believe the God in the Quran is the God of all creations and, knowledge is A key to Him.

Whitepig,

Ashkenazic, Sephardic & Mizrahic Jews are genetically distinct group of Jewish people. It shows closer genetic affinity than to non-Jews like Arabs & Europeans.

Sephardims(Sephardic Jews) settled in the Iberian peninsula since the era of King Solomon. Mentioned in the Bible. Sephardim comes from Hebrew Sepharad meaning Spain. Ashkenazims can be traced by the routes of their migration after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. They go north and westward and settles in Eastern Europe, Germany & France. Ashkenazic is derived from Hebrew word for Germany. The 2nd wave of dispersion goes east and south-west which settles in North Africa and Middle East. These are Mizrachi obtained from Hebrew word for Eastern. Thus, it makes one wonder what difference does it make.

It therefore, entitled Israeli Jews to be applied of Koran's testament.

i am also entitled since i ve just checked into a gene clinic and they found some 'jew' genes in me. i am entiltled to everything. and you are entitled to nothing because u ain't got that few strands of coveted genes.

i repeat , ashkenazi `jews` are not semitic. they are not jews.

nowwwww what happened to that lost tribe who settled in the far east - the descendents of ham? or was that sHam? i think if i check into that gene clinic again - they could find something useful, genetically speakin.

Debmey

I told yu samerosie is a muslim.  

Hard scientific evidence does show that Ashkenazis are Jews, it doesn't matter how hard yu deny, they are still Jews.