What role does a muslim woman take in Islam?

nightlord

Gosh, reading this forum is giving me a head-ache.

Lets see, from what I can gather from this forum,

Women in Islam will be,

1. Wife, and mother,
2. Beaten with stick if refuse s_x with husband, according to Muhammad(saw)
3. Allow husband to marry four wives.
4. Must accept husband word as law in the house
5. Can be divorced if husband said so
6. Ok for husband to have s_x with slave girls

Somone put my head straight:stp: coz I really need to understand this.

Any muslim ladies /or guys care to clarify this?

Nightlord

It is reported that a man came to the Prophet and asked:

"Messenger of Allah, who is the most deserving of good care from me?" The Prophet replied: "Your mother (which he repeated three times) then your father, then your nearest relatives in order".

In another hadith the Prophet has said: "aradise lies at the feet of mothers" in other words Paradise awaits those who cherish and respect their mothers.

The Muslim mother has consequently a great feeling of security about the type of care and consideration she can expect from her children when she reaches old age. As the verse of the Qur'an quoted above indicates, thankfulness to parents is linked with thankfulness to Allah, and a failure in either of these respects is indeed a major failure in one's religious duties.

The principles of Islam made explicit in the Qur'an and hadith are belief and good conduct, and good conduct begins at home with one's closest relatives. A Westerner who has had close contact with a Muslim society cannot fail to be struck by the love and respect given to parents and the honour shown to old people in general, both men and women, as a direct application of these principles of Islam.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_mom.htm

http://www.iica.org/articles/islamics.htm

http://members.aol.com/trueislam/women-3.txt


Islam is a woman抯 world

BY MAI LI MU袿Z ADAMS
SALISBURY POST


WOMEN IN PRAYER: Huda Abdul-Rahim and
other Muslim women prepare to begin a recent prayer service


揝he抯 like a diamond, a jewel to me,

Sephiroth

揝he抯 like a diamond, a jewel to me,

[quote]Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-9-2 03:07 PM:
揝he抯 like a diamond, a jewel to me,

Sephiroth

'Several incidents in Malay society':...that is a very unfair comment. You know very well that it happens in all societies.

Several incidents in Malay society is far more than any incidents of such in Chinese or Indian society. Do you know WHY? Because Chinese and Indians have culture and proper methods of "risik" bride for their children. And since in both culture, it usually the bride family who tries to match make their sons and not the other way around since they know men have egos and easily bruised as seen in your society.

I have many times had the suspicion that you are originally from India & that  you are not born in Malaysia. Much of your prejudices towards Islam is imported from Indian history. The Malays (who are Muslims) do not deserve the criticisms you have hurled towards them, for they are mostly very nice people.

;) Baaka ... ;) I'm from Malaysia, as so my mother. I'm the 3rd generation where it is my grandparents who came to this country back in 1930s just when the rubber industry and the spice industry in Johor was growing and in need of manpower.

And who said I was an indian? :cak:

But your ability to master the Malay language has stopped me from further thinking so.  Therefore, I take it that you are just another born again Hindu whose body and soul is half in India & half here ( I don't know for what reason).  

Baaka ... I got B+ in B.M in SPM, Distinction in B.M and Pengajian Am in STPM and I happened to be one of the school magazine writer which was in B.M also. You got such track records in your own language? :cak:

Plus, I happened to know more about Malay Culture and heritage than anyone else in this board since History was one of my favorite subjects and I was trying to get into History Studies in the University (but couldn't get in because of the failure in Sejarah Islam).

I have got nothing against Hindu women or women in Hinduism, Seph. Its a pity that you have decided to stoop that low to release your personal prejudices towards Islam.

The Hindu population in this country is small, but if it were big, then it will hold the record for the most number of wife-beatings & abuses  in society, for even with that small number they are rampant ~ I don't blame Hindusim for that.   

We're in Malaysia ... talk about Malaysian Indian if you still want to consider me as an Indian.

Anyway, here's what the American textbooks say about Hindu women.  

What does the Americans ... who scoop their female counterparts even worst than a Muslim got any say about Hindus women? They do not know what the heck culture is; their women usually loses their virginity by the time they are 18, and their pick up women at bars like they pick meats from the grocery store.

I fail to see what rights an American has to say about Hindu women.

And here's what an Indian Muslim writer  has to say about the Hindu hatred towards Islam and where it stems from:  

To a Muslim, if someone hates them, they are evil and Muslims are pure and innocents. BAAKA. ff:

Hope for a better and peaceful future for all those who live in the sub-continent does not lie in the rise of a charismatic leader who would lead all communities to utopia. The era of heroes is past. Instead the best hope for a better future lies in education, dispaaionate analysis of history and a grass root movement of thoughtful individuals that share a belief in the common goodness of all humans. Hope lies in those intellectually honest souls

History do not lie, not does one need to lie about history to please another.

What happened with Moguls are as described by history and ALL historians around the world accepted it as facts. You don't like it, then hang yourself. :cak:

I have no comments to make about your other statements. You have your opinion, I have mine, but I still consider you as having a very 'sub-continental' Indian  unMalaysian kind of attitude, especially towards Islam. As for this one:

Several incidents in Malay society is far more than any incidents of such in Chinese or Indian society. Do you know WHY? Because Chinese and Indians have culture and proper methods of "risik" bride for their children. And since in both culture, it usually the bride family who tries to match make their sons and not the other way around since they know men have egos and easily bruised as seen in your society.

Even the word 'risik' is a Malay word. Your reasoning does not make sense. Are you talking about the 18th and 19th century or before that? The Malay society is known for their gentleness and their 'adat resam & budaya'.

I agree with you that the Malay/Muslim culture has eroded through modernization (influenced by the negative part of the west, not the positive) & and also migration to the urban areas, social factors, living conditions, economic factors, intermingling with recent  immigrant workers etc.etc.   

One more thing,  how many per cent of the Chinese today practise your 'risik' by the bride's family? Tell me. If you are Indian, I am Chinese. Don't tell me you know better. How many percent Seph?

I agree that certain strata of the Indians (Hindus and Muslims) are still conservative in this respect (which in a way is a good thing), but not the Christians. The Malays/Muslims are also (majority-wise) holding on to tradition. Your point about the bride's side 'risik' the groom' is a biased opinion. In Negri Sembilan, the Minangkabau Malay custom (adat pepatih) has been like that, but it did not guarantee non-egoistic tendencies on the part of the male.

And for your information, there are also women who abuse & bully their husbands, in all societies.

Then again, which part of Indian society are you talking about? The Tamils (Hindus) in Malaysia are known for wife abuse, especially in the estates. Do you deny that? Who arranges their marriages? Its the husbands (drunk or not drunk) who beat their wives, not the other way round. Are these exempted from being classified as Hindus or Indians simply because of their social status?

And don't tell me the Chinese are all very peaceful and happily married. You know very well that all sorts of abuse take place.  

Religion has very little to do with the sickness of society ~ any society. Its the non-observance of religion that has led to them.

Your pin-pointing Islam is just your own preferred prejudice.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 2-9-2004 at 05:34 PM ]

Originally posted by nightlord at 2004-9-2 00:23:
Gosh, reading this forum is giving me a head-ache.

Lets see, from what I can gather from this forum,

Women in Islam will be,


2. Beaten with stick if refuse s_x with  ...

This just shows that you are either a woman, want to be a woman, or you are just arguing to do so.  However, here is my response:

1. Wife, and mother,
2. Beaten with stick if refuse s_x with husband, according to Muhammad(saw)
3. Allow husband to marry four wives.
4. Must accept husband word as law in the house
5. Can be divorced if husband said so
6. Ok for husband to have s_x with slave girls


1.  At least you got the first one right  ;)

2.**Kindly show us where Muhammad beat your wives for denying sex.**

3.**Abraham had two, Jacob had 3, Solomon had how many ~~500 wives and concubines~~, and there is a law given in deut. in reference to have more than one wife  Deut 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: 16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. **

4. :geram: Wrong again.  Must accept ALLAH'S word as law.  If a husband asks his wife to do something Allah forbid, she MUST DISOBEY her husband.  

5.  A wife has a right to divorce her husband as well.

6. Again, Solomon had sex with his concubines, and if you refer to the Book of Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 17 and 18. Here, Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children. The order continues with the following:

    " ... Kill every woman who has known man by lying with him, but all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves "  

What do you think they were to do with these virgins who are now slaves and concubines??  :stp:

Kill the HYPOCRACY  

nightlord

Yeah, I agree with KenKid Malays are nice people.. Me orang kampung when I was a kid and most of my friends were malays. Great culture - but that's for another time.

Sorry Criteria, you will have to do better than that. Lets be honest muslim men take advantage of their position in the quran to control/subdue their women.

I hope some muslim women will speak their mind in this thread, it will be interesting from their perspective.

Nightlord

FaithHealer3

Guess this is the verse in Quran(Q4:34) that gave men the power to wallop their wife/wives. Lets check out few translations...

Q4:34
Pickthall: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.  

Yusuf Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all).  

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
  
Sher Ali: Men are guardians over women because ALLAH has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with ALLAH's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, ALLAH is High and Great.
  
Khalifa: The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.  

Palmer: Men stand superior to women in that God hath preferred some of them over others, and in that they expend of their wealth: and the virtuous women, devoted, careful (in their husbands') absence, as God has cared for them. But those whose perverseness ye fear, admonish them and remove them into bed-chambers and beat them; but if they submit to you, then do not seek a way against them; verily, God is high and great.  

Sale: Men shall have the pre-eminence above women, because of those [advantages] wherein God hath caused the one of them to excel the other, and for that which they expend of their substance [in maintaining their wives]. The honest women [are] obedient, careful in the absence [of their husbands], for that God preserveth [them, by committing them to the care and protection of the men]. But those, whose perverseness ye shall be apprehensive of, rebuke; and remove them into separate apartments, and chastise them. But if they shall be obedient unto you, seek not an occasion [of quarrel] against them; for God is high and great.  

Rodwell: Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God hath of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourage them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!  


In a nutshell..
1. Men are superior to women... (no objection here )
2. Women must be obedient to husbands...(no objection here )
3. If your wife give you problem
    a) scold them.
    b) ahem don't make-love with them... (and hide all the dildos )
    c) finally wallop them till they obey you.
4. If your wife is obedient then don't buly themlah.

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

Even the word 'risik' is a Malay word. Your reasoning does not make sense. Are you talking about the 18th and 19th century or before that? The Malay society is known for their gentleness and their 'adat resam & budaya'.

I used word which you could understand, since B.M probably the ONLY language you could ever master. ;)

True ... Malays back in 18th and 19th century were famous for their gentleness and culture. That was till late 1980s when Malays begin to choose an identity for themselves. They choose Muslim identity and rejected slowly all the heritage and culture which made them Malays.

Malays do not exists now, only Muslims with their Arabic outfits, kopiahs and attitude problems that suits them.

I agree with you that the Malay/Muslim culture has eroded through modernization (influenced by the negative part of the west, not the positive) & and also migration to the urban areas, social factors, living conditions, economic factors, intermingling with recent  immigrant workers etc.etc.   

Wrong ... it is not Modernization which eroded Malay culture, it was Malays acceptance of Islam. Before that, Malays were still Muslim but they still held their culture and heritage strongly.

They still follow "Biar Mati Anak, Jangan Mati Adat" principle where culture and heritage was important as an identity of a race. Malays now are nothing but dead people without identity, culture and heritage. They are Muslims.

One more thing,  how many per cent of the Chinese today practise your 'risik' by the bride's family? Tell me. If you are Indian, I am Chinese. Don't tell me you know better. How many percent Seph?  

That is individual rights. One can choose love marriage and others could choose matching making. Chinese mostly go for love marriage, but there are cases of match making (especially among Buddhist) while Indians usually go for match making because match making is a long held tradition and job for a certain group of people in their society.

PS : When one fills the marriage certificate, he or she does not put in it whether it is a love marriage or match made on. ;)

I agree that certain strata of the Indians (Hindus and Muslims) are still conservative in this respect (which in a way is a good thing), but not the Christians. The Malays/Muslims are also (majority-wise) holding on to tradition. Your point about the bride's side 'risik' the groom' is a biased opinion. In Negri Sembilan, the Minangkabau Malay custom (adat pepatih) has been like that, but it did not guarantee non-egoistic tendencies on the part of the male.

Minangkabau people are from Indonesia, not Malay origin. They come and settle here around 15th and 16th century and like all minor races in Malaysia, they held their traditions with a firm grip. I don't understand what's your point since they are not Malays by tradition.

And for your information, there are also women who abuse & bully their husbands, in all societies.  

True ... but rare. So what? You going to justify a few rare cases of woman beating a husband with dozen of reported sexual and physical abuses?

Then again, which part of Indian society are you talking about? The Tamils (Hindus) in Malaysia are known for wife abuse, especially in the estates. Do you deny that? Who arranges their marriages? Its the husbands (drunk or not drunk) who beat their wives, not the other way round. Are these exempted from being classified as Hindus or Indians simply because of their social status?  

True ... there are cases of husbands (drunk most likely) beat their wives in estate. Question now is ... who made Muslims drunk till they beat their wives? :cak:

And don't tell me the Chinese are all very peaceful and happily married. You know very well that all sorts of abuse take place.   

Nope ... Chinese people have same share of problems. Whether they are happily married or not is depends on individual problems and what punishments which their society allows. A chinese woman who was physically abuse could drag her husband to the courts faster than a Muslim woman could with their husbands.

Religion has very little to do with the sickness of society ~ any society. Its the non-observance of religion that has led to them.

Your pin-pointing Islam is just your own preferred prejudice.  

Wrong ... Islam gave way for Muslims to abuse others. Muslim Men still follow the fairy tale of Eve been created from Adam's rib (might as well call it pelvis bone) and there for, they are submitted to men. That is why I said Muslim women are nothing more than Sex objects in my first post here.

In Muslim Men's pathetic LITTLE minds, they are the leaders, even so they maybe working as burger vendors in small road side stall. Their words are the laws in their house hold and if a women (who maybe twice as educated as he is) even dares to speak otherwise, its either divorce OR physical abuse as stated in your religion.

ibnur

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-9-3 07:53:
by KENNKID

Even the word 'risik' is a Malay word. Your reasoning does not make sense. Are you talking about the 18th and 19th century or before that? The Malay society is known for their gen ...

Dari kau buat kesimpulan on behalf of melayu, lebih baik kau jaga bangsa kau yang kaki mabuk, kaki pukul bini dan rogol anak.  Don't be a hypo.


belum sebut yg gangster lagi tu.  just count the percentage of crime and criminals against number of 'the people'.

[ Last edited by ibnur on 3-9-2004 at 09:42 AM ]

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 3-9-2004 03:33 AM:

Guess this is the verse in Quran(Q4:34) that gave men the power to wallop their wife/wives. Lets check out few translations...

Q4:34
Pickthall: Men are in charge o ...

MUSLIM WOMEN - SLAVES?????????????:hmm::stp:

And Muslim man have right to stab them or rape them if the women folks rejects them as several incidents in Malay society had shown.

Women in Islam are nothing more than sex objects. Nothing more, nothing less.
---

Funny, cos I see the same thing in Chinese and Indian society too, in fact, plenty in western society even worst.

neostream

to FH3

Kaum laki-laki itu adalah pemimpin bagi kaum wanita, oleh karena Allah telah melebihkan sebahagian mereka (laki-laki) atas sebahagian yang lain (wanita), dan karena mereka (laki-laki) telah menafkahkan sebagian dari harta mereka. Sebab itu maka wanita yang saleh, ialah yang ta'at kepada Allah lagi memelihara diri [289] ketika suaminya tidak ada, oleh karena Allah telah memelihara (mereka) [290]. Wanita-wanita yang kamu khawatirkan nusyuznya [291], maka nasehatilah mereka dan pisahkanlah mereka di tempat tidur mereka, dan pukullah mereka. Kemudian jika mereka mentaatimu, maka janganlah kamu mencari-cari jalan untuk menyusahkannya [292]. Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Tinggi lagi Maha Besar.

(4:35)
Dan jika kamu khawatirkan ada persengketaan antara keduanya, maka kirimlah seorang hakam [293] dari keluarga laki-laki dan seorang hakam dari keluarga perempuan. Jika kedua orang hakam itu bermaksud mengadakan perbaikan, niscaya Allah memberi taufik kepada suami-isteri itu. Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Mengetahui lagi Maha Mengenal.

Maksudnya : Tidak berlaku curang serta memelihara rahasia dan harta suaminya.

Maksudnya : Allah telah mewajibkan kepada suami untuk mempergauli isterinya dengan baik.

Nusyuz : yaitu meninggalkan kewajiban bersuami isteri. Nusyuz dari pihak isteri seperti meninggalkan rumah tanpa izin suaminya.

# [292] Maksudnya : untuk memberi peljaran kepada isteri yang dikhuatirkan pembangkangannya haruslah mula-mula diberi nasihat, bila nasihat tidak bermanfaat barulah dipisahkan dari tempat tidur mereka, bila tidak bermanfaat juga barulah dibolehkan memukul mereka dengan pukulan yang tidak meninggalkan bekas. Bila cara pertama telah ada manfaatnya janganlah dijalankan cara yang lain dan seterusnya.


In a nutshell:
mana ada main pukul suka hati...

[ Last edited by neostream on 3-9-2004 at 01:04 PM ]

wife beaters????????????????

WOMEN OF 'THE BOOK' :lol









[ Last edited by POPOY on 3-9-2004 at 02:03 PM ]

Sephiroth

by samerosie

Funny, cos I see the same thing in Chinese and Indian society too, in fact, plenty in western society even worst.

Wrong ... not same.

In Indian and Chinese society, if a man cannot perform his duties properly, the women have the right to drag his sorry butt to the court and demand a divorce. In Muslim society, men have full right whether or not to give his wife divorce even if she asked for it.

And I don't see what western culture have anything to do with eastern one.


by neostream

Kaum laki-laki itu adalah pemimpin bagi kaum wanita, oleh karena Allah telah melebihkan sebahagian mereka (laki-laki) atas sebahagian yang lain (wanita), dan karena mereka (laki-laki) telah menafkahkan sebagian dari harta mereka. Sebab itu maka wanita yang saleh, ialah yang ta'at kepada Allah lagi memelihara diri [289] ketika suaminya tidak ada, oleh karena Allah telah memelihara (mereka) [290]. Wanita-wanita yang kamu khawatirkan nusyuznya [291], maka nasehatilah mereka dan pisahkanlah mereka di tempat tidur mereka, dan pukullah mereka. Kemudian jika mereka mentaatimu, maka janganlah kamu mencari-cari jalan untuk menyusahkannya [292]. Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Tinggi lagi Maha Besar.

Nusyuz : yaitu meninggalkan kewajiban bersuami isteri. Nusyuz dari pihak isteri seperti meninggalkan rumah tanpa izin suaminya.

Betul apa yg saya kata ... wanita Muslims adalah hamba periabdi lelaki Muslim.

Sekiranya mereka tinggalkan rumah tanpa persetujuan lelaki, mereka boleh dipukul. Sama macam seekor lembu yg terkeluar dr kandang dia tanpa kebenaran tuannya. ;)

# [292] Maksudnya : untuk memberi peljaran kepada isteri yang dikhuatirkan pembangkangannya haruslah mula-mula diberi nasihat, bila nasihat tidak bermanfaat barulah dipisahkan dari tempat tidur mereka, bila tidak bermanfaat juga barulah dibolehkan memukul mereka dengan pukulan yang tidak meninggalkan bekas. Bila cara pertama telah ada manfaatnya janganlah dijalankan cara yang lain dan seterusnya.

In a nutshell:
mana ada main pukul suka hati...

Kamu tahu tak, sekiranya seseorang meletakan bantal di depan muka dan dipukul dan diteranjang, bekas pukulan dia tak akan kelihatan pada badan mangsa?

Kamu tahu tak yg menarik rambut serta menolak ke sana sini juga tak akan meninggalkan kesan2 yg dalam?

Kamu tahu tak yg penderaan secara emosional juga sama hebatnya dgn penderaan physical?

neostream

Maksudnya : untuk memberi peljaran kepada isteri yang dikhuatirkan pembangkangannya haruslah mula-mula diberi nasihat, bila nasihat tidak bermanfaat barulah dipisahkan dari tempat tidur mereka, bila tidak bermanfaat juga barulah dibolehkan memukul mereka dengan pukulan yang tidak meninggalkan bekas.

Bila cara pertama telah ada manfaatnya janganlah dijalankan cara yang lain dan seterusnya.

part mana yang hang tak paham ni?:stp:
aku dah kahwin 4 tahun dan tak ada pun pukul pukul.

[ Last edited by neostream on 3-9-2004 at 06:52 PM ]

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by neostream at 2004-9-3 12:59 PM:
# [292] Maksudnya : untuk memberi peljaran kepada isteri yang dikhuatirkan pembangkangannya haruslah mula-mula diberi nasihat, bila nasihat tidak bermanfaat barulah dipisahkan dari tempat tidur mereka, bila tidak bermanfaat juga barulah dibolehkan memukul mereka dengan pukulan yang tidak meninggalkan bekas. Bila cara pertama telah ada manfaatnya janganlah dijalankan cara yang lain dan seterusnya.

Lets take this scenario

Husband don't like his wife's father. Husband goes to work and the wife visits her fathers. Husband dislikes her action.

Step 1. Husband tells wife not to visit her father without his permission again. If she wants he will company her. Few days later, same thing happen again. Step 1 fails.

Step 2. Husband purnish her by sleeping separately. After few days, she does the same thing. Going off alone to her father's house without getting her husbands permission. Step 2 fails
  
Step 3. Being a good muslim, the husband goes to step 3. The husband smacks her "on the chest"( like Muhammad did to Aisha). The wife, becomes furious and hurls insulting remark at him, and vows never to listen to this animal who beat her.

Now the husband is stuck.... the wife suppose to obey and summit to him after he beats her without leaving any marks.

Should  the husband continue Step 3. till she submit and obey him?

neostream

Lets take this scenario

in real life, there would never be that scenario.
we respect our parents (in laws included)

so that is only in your sick imagination my friend...

life is too precious to think of such things
so go and enjoy life

[ Last edited by neostream on 3-9-2004 at 11:46 PM ]