What role does a muslim woman take in Islam?

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

I can say the same thing too. Many non-Muslim girls also say that Muslim men make very good husbands because they are very caring. Why? Because Muslim men (urban ones) are more liberal at home and gives the woman more say in their marriage.

Nightlord is generalising. A deduction and assumption based on his narrow outlook towards life.  

Oh really?

I personally know two women - one is a Malay woman and another is a Hindu woman who was married to a Muslim. Both will say that Muslim men are quite uncaring. They are both married to Muslim, given couple of kids and then divorced to become a single mothers.

Muslims are very caring as long as they do not have a chance to crawl into someone's skirt. After they have their fill of lusts, they will look for other women to sleep with. That is why Muslim men allowed to marry 4 wives while other followers of religions marry only one (unless it is a rare cases such as birth).

Sephiroth: personally know two women - one is a Malay woman and another is a Hindu woman who was married to a Muslim. Both will say that Muslim men are quite uncaring. They are both married to Muslim, given couple of kids and then divorced to become a single mothers.

Huh...what a stupid thing to say. Its unfortunate that they got uncaring husbands who happened to Muslims, thats all.

Sephiroth:Muslims are very caring as long as they do not have a chance to crawl into someone's skirt. After they have their fill of lusts, they will look for other women to sleep with. That is why Muslim men allowed to marry 4 wives while other followers of religions marry only one (unless it is a rare cases such as birth).

Everyone knows that what you say above  is nonsense, deduced by your own pea brain. No sorry, people like you need to be treated the way you deserve to be treated. How can you make generalisations like that?:stp:

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

Huh...what a stupid thing to say. Its unfortunate that they got uncaring husbands who happened to Muslims, thats all.  

The Muslim lady who married the Muslim, that one is true ... he was an uncaring and short tempered person.

But the one who married the Hindu woman was nephew of my Sejarah Islam Teacher. He always wears a white kopiah like in your avatar and most of the time, does Azan calls because his voice was a beautiful one. Some more, he was also brother, if not mistaken to a Tok Haji who was proud for being a Syeikh descandent.

Hmph ... that didn't stop him from getting a girl pregnant before wedlock and secretly marrying her in less than 2 months when the class (the girl was teaching) when on a semester break (we were in Form 5).

So don't come to me with Muslims are holy crap ... even those who pray 5 times a day will become subject to his lusts.

Everyone knows that what you say above  is nonsense, deduced by your own pea brain. No sorry, people like you need to be treated the way you deserve to be treated. How can you make generalisations like that?  

Leave everyone out of it ... you are not qualified to present EVERYONE.
It sounds nonsense to you and you alone.

It is not generalization ... it is based on what I have experience in Muslim society in the past 30 years plus.

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 9-9-2004 01:38 PM:
by KENNKID

Huh...what a stupid thing to say. Its unfortunate that they got uncaring husbands who happened to Muslims, thats all.  

The Muslim lady who married the Muslim, that one is  ...

:cak:

Aku hanya mampu tersengih sephiroth........... si kengkid...cuba menegakkan benang yang basah kuyup.....

bila kau balik sabah seph.....:bodek:

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-9-9 01:38 PM:
by KENNKID

Huh...what a stupid thing to say. Its unfortunate that they got uncaring husbands who happened to Muslims, thats all.  

The Muslim lady who married the Muslim, that one is  ...

I don't care if your friend's ustaz husband wears a flowing robe or puts on 20 layers of turbans on his head. If he is wrong before God he is wrong before God even if he tries his best to show that he is pious or if he is not pious enough for his attire aimed at looking pious.God knows best. (assuming that your story is true)

What do you make of this (below) Sephiroth? I can make generalisations of the followers of your otherwise nameless religion based on this too:

"The recent killings of Christian missionaries, burning of Churches and gang rapes of Catholic nuns by Hindu fanatical elements belonging to the vast supportive network of the BJP party and the RSS ("Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh") known as the "Sangh Parivar", is motivated by the caste bigotry of the Hindus.

The caste Hindus want to preserve the outcast status of the Dalits and tribals by preventing the Christian missionaries from educating and converting the Dalits. The Hindus feel that the work of the Christian missionaries will destroy the Dalits' bondage to outcast status through education, conversion and spiritual liberation.

Even last month a Catholic nun was stripped naked and urinated upon by a gang of Hindu fanatics in north India. A Catholic priest Rev. Fr. Arul Das was murdered by the same Hindu fanatic (Dara Singh) who also burnt an Australian missionary (Mr.Graham Staines) and his two little sons alive until they died in great pain.

Hindu society is a wasteland of hatred spawned by the bigotry of the hierarchically placed Hindu castes. Apart from bickering with one another, the Caste Hindus, whether they are upper or lower in the caste hierarchy are united in their hatred for the Dalits.

No attempt has been made in the 50 years of India's independence to integrate Dalits with the mainstream of society. State sponsored services such as primary schools, medical clinics, offices of government departments or a public telephone, are always established in the caste Hindus section of the village or town and not in the segregated colonies where the Dalit people are forced to live.

http://www.trinidadandtobagonews ... l/noframes/read/622

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 9-9-2004 at 02:42 PM ]

nightlord

Quote :
"A Catholic priest Rev. Fr. Arul Das was murdered by the same Hindu fanatic (Dara Singh) who also burnt an Australian missionary.................."

Sorry man, Dara Singh is a Sikh not a hindu........................unless he has incredible love for the hindus or changed his religion before his crime.


Nightlord

nightlord

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/muslims/portraits/malaysia.html

Quote:
Aida Melly Tan Mutalib has been trying for seven years to get a divorce from her abusive husband who already has married a second woman. (Islamic law in Malaysia allows Muslim men to marry up to four women.) Islamic law also grants men an automatic right to divorce; women like Aida must first prove their case before a judge if they want a divorce.

After a long struggle, Aida finally convinced the judge. But her husband appealed and the case goes on. In this clip, Aida describes her struggle, and the public's response.

End Quote.
Hey, you muslim quys why dont you just read up about muslim women and their struggles in the above link maybe you will learn something.


Nightlord

[ Last edited by nightlord on 10-9-2004 at 01:56 AM ]

wira_melayu

Originally posted by nightlord at 10-9-2004 01:55 AM:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/muslims/portraits/malaysia.html

Quote ...

Nice post,we shouldn't takes thing for granted.
It would be grateful if the court grants his wife a divorce.

neostream

What is the use of the sign on the road if the drivers do not follow it?

bukan semua org ikut undang-undang
sebab tu ada org jahat, ada criminal, ada perompak, ada peragut etc

kalau semua org ikut undang-undang, tak akan ada la criminal

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

I don't care if your friend's ustaz husband wears a flowing robe or puts on 20 layers of turbans on his head. If he is wrong before God he is wrong before God even if he tries his best to show that he is pious or if he is not pious enough for his attire aimed at looking pious.God knows best. (assuming that your story is true)

Have I ever lied to you, Kenkidd Chan? (Becareful how you answer that).

Bottomline - Islam or otherwise does not means a person's character will change for the better. If a person who commited sins wish to "taubat", he will be come a better person then before.

Unfortunately for Muslims, Muslims believe that attitude is something which a person cannot change - something predestined by God (again). That is why you got some many attitude problems in Muslim society.

What do you make of this (below) Sephiroth? I can make generalisations of the followers of your otherwise nameless religion based on this too:  

Why don't you make generalisation of Left Wing Political Party instead?

"The recent killings of Christian missionaries, burning of Churches and gang rapes of Catholic nuns by Hindu fanatical elements belonging to the vast supportive network of the BJP party and the RSS ("Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh" known as the "Sangh Parivar", is motivated by the caste bigotry of the Hindus.  

The underline paragraph shows that the action was taken by fanatics who follow Left Wing fanatics groups, for political purposes. I don't see any Hindu elements in there other than the people who claims to be Hindus.

No attempt has been made in the 50 years of India's independence to integrate Dalits with the mainstream of society. State sponsored services such as primary schools, medical clinics, offices of government departments or a public telephone, are always established in the caste Hindus section of the village or town and not in the segregated colonies where the Dalit people are forced to live.  

That's because India made a small but significant mistake in the beginning of its independant.

After getting independance from British, it turned toward another Western country for role model - US.  In Malaysia, Malaysia turned toward Japan in 1960s - 70s for role model and become as developed as today and still looking toward Japan and Korea now.

US is based on Jungle Laws - "Who is strong, he wins". India continued it's policy according to US because it sees US as modern at that time. It neglected its social, religion, culture and heritage and only concentrated in economy and politics. That is why its people (especially the poor and those who were considered low caste) were neglected.

Even in Malaysia, we know that British made it hard for independance by using "ecah dan Perintah" policy (Split and Rule) where all three races were split and ruled without much contact which one another.

In India, same principles were applied, only this time, it was split by caste rather than color of the skins and background like in Malaysia.


by neostream

bukan semua org ikut undang-undang
sebab tu ada org jahat, ada criminal, ada perompak, ada peragut etc

kalau semua org ikut undang-undang, tak akan ada la criminal

Siapa lebih jahat?

Mereka yg melanggar undang2 ke atau mereka yg menpertahankan penjenayah yg sengaja melanggar undang2 dgn menyalahkan penguatkuasa undang2?

:Sephiroth: Have I ever lied to you, Kenkidd Chan?  (Becareful how you answer that).

Bottomline - Islam or otherwise does not means a person's character will change for the better. If a person who commited sins wish to "taubat", he will be come a better person then before.

Unfortunately for Muslims, Muslims believe that attitude is something which a person cannot change - something predestined by God (again). That is why you got some many attitude problems in Muslim society.

You don't know enough about Islam to make comments like you have the authority to do so.

You said (quoted above) that in Islam,  if a person commits sins & repents (taubat) he will become a better person than before.

Repenting or 'taubat' is totally & genuinely regretting what wrong one has done and asking for forgiveness from The Almighty for one's wrong-doings and promising to God not to repeat the wrong-doings.

To repent, firstly one has to know what he has done wrong, right? Whether one becomes a better person after that depends on the sincerity and honesty of one's  repentance, how steadfast is one to his own repentance, and the effort he  makes to become a better person. Tiada hasil kalau tiada usaha.

The three conditions one has to meet for repentance or 'taubat' are: Regretting with all one's heart for one's wrong-doings, secondly, withdrawing from continuing or persisting with the wrong-doing for the sake of God (kerana Allah) and thirdly promising that one will not repeat the wrong-doing, ever again.  

Your next comment about pre-destination is completely contradictory to your comment about taubat.

You do not understand what 'ketentuan' is with regards to qada' & qadar in Islam.  Unfortunately, many Muslims also believe the way you believe due to lack of education or the wrong education they receive about what it really means in Islam.

Pre-destination as understood by you is God already determining what one's fate is going to be. In other words, 'kalau rezeki secupak tetap akan secupak dan tidak akan menjadii segantang'. This is wrong! It is a Malay belief brought down from Buddhism and Hinduism (the otherwise nameless 'religion') of yesteryears.

The Muslim belief concerning qada' and qadar (ketentuan dan perihal berlakunya ketentuan Allah) is not that. The concept is whatever you do, you will not escape from the rhealm of Allah's determination. You are rewarded equivalent to the effort you put in, in whatever you do in this world. You dig for so much gold, you will get so much gold. You will not get more gold than what you dig or less gold, because it is equivalent to your effort.

Therefore in Islamic belief there is no such thing as the inability to become a better person as you alleged. That is your belief: Once a low caste always a low caste. In Islam,  the result of your effort to become a better person is equivalent to the amount of effort that you put in. That is God's determination (ketentuan Allah). Hasil sesuatu adalah setimpal dengan usaha seseorang.

I'm sorry to say this, but the Malays are very fond of blaming God (by misuing qada' & qadar') for their own misfortune. You can hear a lot of Malays saying "ahh dah ditentukan Tuhan, aper nak buat" or " ahh dah jodoh aperr nak buat".... Yes, they can say so, if they understand the concept, but saying so without understanding and if their understanding implies that they are blaming God for their misfortune, then they are actually committing a sin. Their misfortune is their own doing.  However, nothing, NOTHING escapes God's knowledge, for God is all knowing. We humans have been given everything, we have to make the effort. YES, everything is from God. If God is to be blamed for everything, then there is no need for heaven and hell for us humans.  

Not only are they committing a sin, but they are giving the wrong information and impression about Islam to non-Muslims.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 10-9-2004 at 10:57 AM ]

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

You don't know enough about Islam to make comments like you have the authority to do so.  

Hmph ... I don't need authority to make statements, I have enough experience observing Muslims here and in real world. That is enough.

To repent, firstly one has to know what he has done wrong, right? Whether one becomes a better person after that depends on the sincerity and honesty of one's  repentance, how steadfast is one to his own repentance, and the effort he  makes to become a better person. Tiada hasil kalau tiada usaha.

The three conditions one has to meet for repentance or 'taubat' are: Regretting with all one's heart for one's wrong-doings, secondly, withdrawing from continuing or persisting with the wrong-doing for the sake of God (kerana Allah) and thirdly promising that one will not repeat the wrong-doing, ever again.  

Your next comment about pre-destination is completely contradictory to your comment about taubat.  

To repent, one must know whether something he is doing is right or wrong. HOW do someone knows what is right or wrong? In logical way, it is by thinking, observing and deducting what is right and wrong. BUT in Muslim way, it is what Muhammad said is right or wrong.

So, if you say it is wrong when Islam states otherwise, then those who follow Islam will say you are wrong and will not repent. THAT is why Fanatism continues in your society. Muhammad waged war against others and despite of people like you say otherwise (that Islam is peaceful), those who follow Muhammad will not see it as a sin or repent. Fanatism will continue.

You do not understand what 'ketentuan' is with regards to qada' & qadar in Islam.  Unfortunately, many Muslims also believe the way you believe due to lack of education or the wrong education they receive about what it really means in Islam.

:lol Case closed then. Even Muslims do not understand Islam and act like what I have mentioned, then who is at fault here? Me or You? I follow Facts, you follow Fairy tales.

Pre-destination as understood by you is God already determining what one's fate is going to be. In other words, 'kalau rezeki secupak tetap akan secupak dan tidak akan menjadii segantang'. This is wrong! It is a Malay belief brought down from Buddhism and Hinduism (the otherwise nameless 'religion') of yesteryears.  

:no: IF Malays continued to held to their culture and heritage which their forefathers had created due to Hindusm and Buddhism, maybe they could lived a better life. They do not.

In Hindusm, ONLY thing predestined is Life (where and when you will born) and Death (when, where and how you will die).

Fate is not written by God but by the Creator - Brahma due to your own Karma and pervious lives. There fore, even so what seems to be Fate staring in your face, IF one hold on to God and work hard, he can win over Fate by his faith. Read Bhavagad Gita.

In Buddhism, Gods do not control your lives, you do. They are there to assists if needs and remind when acquired but they will not control you nor Fate will. You choose your own fate and you live your own life.

The Muslim belief concerning qada' and qadar (ketentuan dan perihal berlakunya ketentuan Allah) is not that. The concept is whatever you do, you will not escape from the rhealm of Allah's determination. You are rewarded equivalent to the effort you put in, in whatever you do in this world. You dig for so much gold, you will get so much gold. You will not get more gold than what you dig or less gold, because it is equivalent to your effort.  

That was I say also ... most Muslims do not do extra. They put a small amount of actions into it, reap the benefits and satisfied by it, stating that it is God's bounty for him.

Furthermore, it also stated that life in this world is temporary and the afterlife is more important, which made most Muslims think that they should not be bothered by this own other than to ensure the afterlife. That is why Muslims are still living in poverty. They do not care about living but concentrate in afterlife alone.

Yeah, I know that you going to say that Islam promote material gains as well as spiritual gains as well. Thing is ... Islam doesn't do that. Most of the examples in Islam like Muhammad choose to live a poor but spiritual life rather than a rich but spiritual one.

Therefore in Islamic belief there is no such thing as the inability to become a better person as you alleged. That is your belief: Once a low caste always a low caste. In Islam,  the result of your effort to become a better person is equivalent to the amount of effort that you put in. That is God's determination (ketentuan Allah). Hasil sesuatu adalah setimpal dengan usaha seseorang.

Talk ... not actions. Look at your own Al Quran, full of example of people who waste time and money for Dakwah purposes so they could get better afterlife rather than use those money to ensure their own people live a proper life.

In about 100 Muslim prophets and Nabis, you will find only handful of people who actually used money to help the power instead of doing Dakwah work to secure thier own paradise.

THAT is the example Islam is putting and THAT is how Muslims are living today.

I'm sorry to say this, but the Malays are very fond of blaming God (by misuing qada' & qadar') for their own misfortune. You can hear a lot of Malays saying "ahh dah ditentukan Tuhan, aper nak buat" or " ahh dah jodoh aperr nak buat".... Yes, they can say so, if they understand the concept, but saying so without understanding and if their understanding implies that they are blaming God for their misfortune, then they are actually committing a sin. Their misfortune is their own doing.  However, nothing, NOTHING escapes God's knowledge, for God is all knowing. We humans have been given everything, we have to make the effort. YES, everything is from God. If God is to be blamed for everything, then there is no need for heaven and hell for us humans.  

Not only are they committing a sin, but they are giving the wrong information and impression about Islam to non-Muslims.

No comment since this was meant for Muslim readers.

Hmph ... I don't need authority to make statements, I have enough experience observing Muslims here and in real world. That is enough.

A negative person like you, with negative perspectives of what you choose to make negative will never learn. You have to sit down and think (meditate) for a long time and maybe then you will learn to be more rational.  

To repent, one must know whether something he is doing is right or wrong. HOW do someone knows what is right or wrong? In logical way, it is by thinking, observing and deducting what is right and wrong. BUT in Muslim way, it is what Muhammad said is right or wrong.

No, not what Prophet Muhammad say is wrong but what God says is wrong and what your own conscience say is wrong. Prophet Muhammad is just God's humble servant. But since you have no faith in Islam and the revelation from God in the Qur'an and since what God revealed to mankind through the holy prophet does not appeal or support your assumed or preferred sense of superiority, you of course hate him, and when there is hatred,  you will say all sorts of bad things about him and about his followers ~ as is evident here. We are immuned to your stand already.

So, if you say it is wrong when Islam states otherwise, then those who follow Islam will say you are wrong and will not repent. THAT is why Fanatism continues in your society. Muhammad waged war against others and despite of people like you say otherwise (that Islam is peaceful), those who follow Muhammad will not see it as a sin or repent. Fanatism will continue.

Its your own analogy, from your own bigotry, borne from your own preferred deduction, based on your own preferred assumption, out of your own preferred prejudice. Ignorance breeding more ignorance. The above statement of yours does not come from a positive mind. It comes from a mind which is one way ~ one way negative. Its to uphold your own fanaticm.

No other comments for the rest of your comments because they are all 'colored' and they all come under the above response by me.

You have this weakness in thinking that you are superior. Your 'nafsu' believes that you are more superior and what you have is more superior. We don't look at things that way. For us, superiority comes with humility before God. Yours is the hypocrisy of humility plus a hereditary tounge that twists and turns.;)

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 10-9-2004 at 11:59 AM ]

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

A negative person like you, with negative perspectives of what you choose to make negative will never learn. You have to sit down and think (meditate) for a long time and maybe then you will learn to be more rational.   

You remind me of another forumer named Salam (probably you also, not sure). He also like to advice people which he himself not following.

Have you ever sat down and think rationally whether what you are following is true to your heart or just follow it because you have no choice?

I can leave my religion and philosopy and embrace Islam IF I want and feel it is right, can you leave Islam if you feel it is not? I even can guess your answer ... you will say "I don't need to leave Islam because it is the true religion" not because you feel it but because you were programmed to say it. ;)

No, not what Prophet Muhammad say is wrong but what God says is wrong and what your own conscience say is wrong. Prophet Muhammad is just God's humble servant. But since you have no faith in Islam and the revelation from God in the Qur'an and since what God revealed to mankind through the holy prophet does not appeal or support your assumed or preferred sense of superiority, you of course hate him, and when there is hatred,  you will say all sorts of bad things about him and about his followers ~ as is evident here. We are immuned to your stand already.

Why should I hate a dead and useless man? I have not meet him, and he have never did anything to me personally. To hate a man who I have not meet or interacted with is stupid.

However, I judge him like what I judge other historical people like Hitler, Mussolini, Genghis Khan and such. He is a warmonger. It is a fair judgement, not that of a hatred one.

Its your own analogy, from your own bigotry, borne from your own preferred deduction, based on your own preferred assumption, out of your own preferred prejudice. Ignorance breeding more ignorance. The above statement of yours does not come from a positive mind. It comes from a mind which is one way ~ one way negative. Its to uphold your own fanaticm.  

Hmph ...;) A evil person is not someone who does evil things alone, but also someone who choose to ignore evil things in his midst - not sure who said it, probably Buddha.

nightlord

Err.....hey guys can we get back to the topic of muslim women..:cak::cak:




Nightlord

nightlord

It is really sad that after all the discussions abt the role of women in Islam, I have yet to see a female muslim forumner stand up and have her say.

All the muslim guys say is that muslim women are better off, but better off compared to what they dont say.

Some guy also posted pictures of muslim women leaders of nations, yet Muhammad(saw) say a woman can never rule a nation or become a leader.

Such contradictions must be addressed by this board as the interpretations of Islam is as diverse as the personalities of the muslim interpreters.

So who of you muslim men can definitively say is the ACTUAL ROLE OF A WOMAN IN LIFE AND IN ISLAM.


nightlord