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Sunni's oldest Koran copy?

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Author: Adm_Cheng_Ho       Show all posts   Read mode

Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
Post time 28-11-2004 11:34 PM | Show all posts |Read mode
Let's try this. According to Sunni historians, the Koran was burnt. Why? This makes the oldest copy of Koran cannot be dated back to Muhammad's lifetime if we follow their version of Islamic history. Care to explain?
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Post time 29-11-2004 03:43 AM | Show all posts
Try to post this question at http://www.islamonline.net    under Ask About Islam section, im sure they will anwer your question.... u got a good question there!!!


Allah knows best...
Peace yall....
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Post time 29-11-2004 03:55 AM | Show all posts
The Quran was written only a few hundred years after Mohamed died.
Primary sourciung shows that there is no mention of the Quran nor common citation of quran verses in muslim culture until the 10th century onwards. Its no surprise that the oldest qurans can only be date back to this period. Of course, muslims would love to date it backwards to the 7th century to gain authorrity.
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Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
 Author| Post time 29-11-2004 09:57 AM | Show all posts

Here not there

Try to post this question at...
Are there no Sunni muslim here? This question was posed by a Shia muslim to the Sunnis in a very heated debate. Now I'd like to see how the Sunnis here in this board explain it to me.
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 10:25 AM | Show all posts
this aenemy guy is to dependent on this so call "best site" of his...he even ask me to go to the site to find answer on the crucifixion of jesus according to the koran there...i do believe the same goes here...no one can or will answer it...
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 10:52 AM | Show all posts
I have no idea why the Shia and that Sunni are making a big fuss over the Quran.  Afterall, Muslims, the Shias, Sunnis and Wahabis are using the same one.  But the bickering over Shia and Sunni had long been existed.  As you know, the Shia became because when Muhammad passed on, he did not nominate a successor.  Thus, the leadership of the Ummah (Muslims) was taken over by Abu Bakar.  Then Umar then Uthman.  This, was accepted by most Muslims then except for some who thought that it should be Ali, Muhammad's son-in-law (Muhammad did not have any surviving male heir) because he was afterall family.  This let to a friction that existed til today, and they are called the Shias.  The Shias do not recognise the 3 caliphates and to them the leader  of the Ummah or the caliphate only started at Ali who subsequently took the role after Uthman.  The Sunnis however recognise all 4 caliphates after Muhammad.

Continuing below.

[ Last edited by samerosie on 29-11-2004 at 10:56 AM ]
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Post time 29-11-2004 10:55 AM | Show all posts
Compilation of the Qur'an


During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)

The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation. Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit. Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use. Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.


During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an. Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.


During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)

During the caliphate of Uthman there entered the fold of Islam peoples whose mother tongue was not Arabic, and who were not able to speak the language with the proper accent and pronunciation. Even the various Arab tribes themselves had different accents and pronunciation. Hence the variations in the recitation of the Quran. The result was that the Quran, too, began to be written according to varying pronunciations. Ibn Qutayba writes that the Bani Huzayl tribe used to pronounce hatta
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 11:07 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by samerosie at 29-11-2004 10:52 AM:
I have no idea why the Shia and that Sunni are making a big fuss over the Quran.  Afterall, Muslims, the Shias, Sunnis and Wahabis are using the same one.  But the bickering over Shia and Sunni had ...


continue below???
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 11:23 AM | Show all posts
Oops, kyas has posted something there.  But I just want to add with regards to the comment destroyed by fire.

When Uthman compiled the first Quran (our modern term "edition" lah) he made a few may be less than 10 then distributed it.  True, a few may have been destroyed in the fire (prolly in the war), but at least one is known to still exist and currently in a museum in Samarkand.  Some of the original manuscripts (unbounded) of the Quran are located in museums all over the world ie Washington, Ireland, Turkey etc.

Debmey's comment that the Quran was written a few hundred years after Muhammad is incorrect.

When Uthman compiled the first edition, it was less than 20 years after Muhammad's death.  Uthman commanded Muhammad's personal scribe Zaid (who was very much alive) to start the work.
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 11:37 AM | Show all posts
can you clear one thing for me...

the koran does mention about moses and jesus right...but why was it different???
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 11:43 AM | Show all posts
It's different because one narration is from the Bible for Christians and the other is from the Quran for the Muslims.
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 11:59 AM | Show all posts
these differents...

Key differences between the Bible and the Koran

The Bible Says:         
Man was created on Earth, in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:8).

The Koran Says:
Man was created in Paradise (janna
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Post time 29-11-2004 01:11 PM | Show all posts
When Uthman compiled the first Quran (our modern term "edition" lah) he made a few may be less than 10 then distributed it.  True, a few may have been destroyed in the fire (prolly in the war), but at least one is known to still exist and currently in a museum in Samarkand.  Some of the original manuscripts (unbounded) of the Quran are located in museums all over the world ie Washington, Ireland, Turkey etc.

Wrong. The Tashkent Quran cannot belong to the 7th century as the script used was only available in the 9th century.




When Uthman compiled the first edition, it was less than 20 years after Muhammad's death.  Uthman commanded Muhammad's personal scribe Zaid (who was very much alive) to start the work.

Thats what muslims always claim, but evidence amd parallel history does not show it to be so.
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Post time 29-11-2004 01:19 PM | Show all posts
the answer has been provided. u have the right to believe it or not to believe it. tq
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Post time 29-11-2004 01:44 PM | Show all posts
Your answers have been rebutted. Evidence & logic does not support the Muslim claim at all.
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 01:46 PM | Show all posts

Suddenly Debmey is an authority on the Quran! Woweeee...

What script are you talking about?  If you are taking about printing, you forget (or at least, didn't know), the Uthman manuscript was handwritten thus that's why only less than 10 was produced as each bounded book contained more or less 1,000 pages.

Way of mass printing was still a long way from being invented.

The Tashkent Quran in UNESCO memory of the world register http://www.unesco.org/webworld/m ... kistan/reading.html

[ Last edited by samerosie on 29-11-2004 at 01:52 PM ]
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 01:54 PM | Show all posts
Now Debmey your answers have been rebutted.  Evidence & logic does not support Debmey's claim at all.
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Post time 29-11-2004 01:57 PM | Show all posts
Hmmm ... :hmm:

I just read what kyas had mentioned and wondering about something.

During Muhammad's time and Abu Bakar's time, a lot of people who memorized Al Quran had died, and it was only Umar who actually started to organize it.

And during Umar's time, various copies of Al Quran which was translated to various subdialects were gathered together and burnt, leaving only one (or few) copy to refer to.

If this two events are correct, then what is the proof that Al Quran which Muhammad receive from Allah (via Jibrail) is the same as the one Muslims using today? :hmm:

Muslims claims that Al Quran is a complete book yet there is a lot of things missing which Al Quran fails to explain like :

1. How to live in peaceful times.
2. How to deal with non-Muslims in the community.
3. How to become a better person like what other religions have taught their followers.

and such. :hmm:
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 02:34 PM | Show all posts
Well Seph, Zaid, Muhammad's personal scribe was still much alive and he was the one entrusted to organize the book.  When Muhammad was still alive, he would call his companions and recite the Quran and he would correct them if they recited it incorrectly.  Before Muhammad passed on, he would recite the Quran and the Archangel Gabriel would correct him.  

It was during Uthman's time that it was decided the Quran should be preserved the way Muhammad spoke ie the Arab Quraish dialect as so not to lose the meanings with the various dialects.

1.  How to live in peaceful times.
The Quran has many verses in how Muslims should live in peaceful times.  Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed" and no Muslims should be the transgressors. The way of "fighting" is also prescribed for example, should your oppressor declare peace, you must immediately accept eventhough the terms are not favourable to you.  When fighting, you should not harm women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, the wounded, the unarmed, the one who immediately say peace, livestock and vegetation.  Mutilation of corpses are forbidden etc.

2) How to deal with non-Muslims in the community.
Should Muslims live in a non Muslim country, and as long as they have their right of worship, Muslims should cooperate with the non-muslim government.  The Quran does not stop there, it says the earth is huge, if you are oppressed in a non-muslim country migrate to another where you can worship freely.

In the sayings of Muhammad:  "And behold! a bier passed by Muhammad, and he stood up; and it was said to him, "This is the bier of a Jew." He said, "Was it not the holder of a soul, from which we should take example and fear?"  When the bier of anyone passeth by thee, whether Jew, Christian or Muslim, rise to thy feet" (to show respect).  

And from his last sermon, "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action".

3)  How to become a better person like what other religions have taught their followers.

There are aplenty and Muslims do not have to look at other (religions) in order to become a better person.

For example, from the sayings of Muhammad :-

- "What is Islam?" someone asked. Muhammad said, "Purity of speech and charity."
- Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots.
- The best Muslim house is that in which is an orphan, who is benefited; and the worst Muslim house is that in which an orphan is ill-treated.
- The best of persons in God's sight is the best amongst his friends; and the best of neighbors near God is the best person in his own neighborhood.
- Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first
- Shall I tell you the very worst among you? Those who eat alone, and whip the slaves, and give to nobody.
- What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.
- He who is not kind to God's creatures, and to his own children, God will not be kind to him.
- The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie.
- He is the most perfect Muslim whose disposition is best; and the best of you are they who behave best to their wives.
- "Oh people, be mindful of those who work under you. Feed and clothe them as you feed and clothe yourselves."

and more.
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Post time 29-11-2004 02:38 PM | Show all posts
(What script are you talking about?  If you are taking about printing, you forget (or at least, didn't know), the Uthman manuscript was handwritten thus that's why only less than 10 was produced as each bounded book contained more or less 1,000 pages.

Way of mass printing was still a long way from being invented.)



Talking abt script, not print.
You see, you don't even know what you are talkking abt.





(The Tashkent Quran in UNESCO memory of the world register http://www.unesco.org/webworld/m ... kistan/reading.html)

Thanks samerosie.
Notice that the arabic script carries the dots. This script was only available from the 9th century. That means, it must have been written hundreds of year , long after Muhamad died.
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Post time 29-11-2004 02:45 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-11-29 01:57 PM:
During Muhammad's time and Abu Bakar's time, a lot of people who memorized Al Quran had died, and it was only Umar who actually started to organize it.

And during Umar's time, various copies of Al Quran which was translated to various subdialects were gathered together and burnt, leaving only one (or few) copy to refer to.

what is the proof that Al Quran which Muhammad receive from Allah (via Jibrail) is the same as the one Muslims using today?


not all of the people who memorised quran died...
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Post time 29-11-2004 02:54 PM | Show all posts
by Samerosie

  Well Seph, Zaid, Muhammad's personal scribe was still much alive and he was the one entrusted to organize the book.  When Muhammad was still alive, he would call his companions and recite the Quran and he would correct them if they recited it incorrectly.  Before Muhammad passed on, he would recite the Quran and the Archangel Gabriel would correct him.  

Which means that even Mr.M himself used to make mistakes. :lol

It was during Uthman's time that it was decided the Quran should be preserved the way Muhammad spoke ie the Arab Quraish dialect as so not to lose the meanings with the various dialects.

It still does not show whether or not Al Quran is complete as Muslim claim it is or not. Remember, a lot of people who memorize Al Quran from Muhammad die as Syahid, especially during the turmoil times after Muhammad's death.

1.  How to live in peaceful times.
The Quran has many verses in how Muslims should live in peaceful times.  Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed" and no Muslims should be the transgressors. The way of "fighting" is also prescribed for example, should your oppressor declare peace, you must immediately accept eventhough the terms are not favourable to you.  When fighting, you should not harm women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, the wounded, the unarmed, the one who immediately say peace, livestock and vegetation.  Mutilation of corpses are forbidden etc.


In places like Kahmir, Southern Thailand and Philipines, Muslims are the agressors where they draw the first blood.

And don't forget, Muhammad himself had hide (in the mosque) from a peace offering by his own father-in-law when he came to renew the Treaty of Hubaidayah.

2) How to deal with non-Muslims in the community.
Should Muslims live in a non Muslim country, and as long as they have their right of worship, Muslims should cooperate with the non-muslim government.  The Quran does not stop there, it says the earth is huge, if you are oppressed in a non-muslim country migrate to another where you can worship freely.


In places like Kashmir, Philipines and South Thai, this failed once again. Muslims are not cooperating with non-Muslim government. :no:

And from his last sermon, "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action".

Hmph ... Muslims have no sense of humilty in them. They have the biggest Ego since Christians.

Compared to Respect and Humility which shown by Buddhist, Muslims are Nothing. ;)

3)  How to become a better person like what other religions have taught their followers.

There are aplenty and Muslims do not have to look at other (religions) in order to become a better person.

For example, from the sayings of Muhammad :-

- "What is Islam?" someone asked. Muhammad said, "urity of speech and charity."
- Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots.
- The best Muslim house is that in which is an orphan, who is benefited; and the worst Muslim house is that in which an orphan is ill-treated.
- The best of persons in God's sight is the best amongst his friends; and the best of neighbors near God is the best person in his own neighborhood.
- Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first
- Shall I tell you the very worst among you? Those who eat alone, and whip the slaves, and give to nobody.
- What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.
- He who is not kind to God's creatures, and to his own children, God will not be kind to him.
- The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie.
- He is the most perfect Muslim whose disposition is best; and the best of you are they who behave best to their wives.
- "Oh people, be mindful of those who work under you. Feed and clothe them as you feed and clothe yourselves."  



Oh please. ;)

If follow all above, I could be considered a better Muslims than most Muslims in this forum who claims themselves as "beriman" to Allah.

At least, can you at least swear (by your God as witness) that you have never intentionally lied? ;)
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Post time 29-11-2004 02:59 PM | Show all posts
by kyas

not all of the people who memorised quran died...

Fact is they did.

If Muhammad himself could make mistake in reciting Al Quran, what about others?

By right, Al Quran should be pen down during the time of Muhammad himself and then double checked with Muhammad and Jibrail. Muhammad didn't it ... I wonder why.

That is a grave mistake, which somewhat similar to what Muslim claims Paul did just a few generations away. I find it odd that Muhammad could make the same mistake with Al Quran.
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 03:12 PM | Show all posts
Debmey Debmey Debmey, you never failed to make me laugh!

There are no dots in there!  Hahahaha sorry can't help it.  Ahem.. any person who can read the arabic alphabets can attest that there are no vowel lines in the script.
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 03:22 PM | Show all posts
So basically Seph, you had no intention to learn but to mock?

Most here can find all the faults in every religion there is, but I won't stoop at your level and follow suit.
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