Sunni's oldest Koran copy?

kyas

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-11-29 01:57 PM:
During Muhammad's time and Abu Bakar's time, a lot of people who memorized Al Quran had died, and it was only Umar who actually started to organize it.

And during Umar's time, various copies of Al Quran which was translated to various subdialects were gathered together and burnt, leaving only one (or few) copy to refer to.

what is the proof that Al Quran which Muhammad receive from Allah (via Jibrail) is the same as the one Muslims using today?

not all of the people who memorised quran died...

Sephiroth

by Samerosie

  Well Seph, Zaid, Muhammad's personal scribe was still much alive and he was the one entrusted to organize the book.  When Muhammad was still alive, he would call his companions and recite the Quran and he would correct them if they recited it incorrectly.  Before Muhammad passed on, he would recite the Quran and the Archangel Gabriel would correct him.  

Which means that even Mr.M himself used to make mistakes. :lol

It was during Uthman's time that it was decided the Quran should be preserved the way Muhammad spoke ie the Arab Quraish dialect as so not to lose the meanings with the various dialects.

It still does not show whether or not Al Quran is complete as Muslim claim it is or not. Remember, a lot of people who memorize Al Quran from Muhammad die as Syahid, especially during the turmoil times after Muhammad's death.

1.  How to live in peaceful times.
The Quran has many verses in how Muslims should live in peaceful times.  Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed" and no Muslims should be the transgressors. The way of "fighting" is also prescribed for example, should your oppressor declare peace, you must immediately accept eventhough the terms are not favourable to you.  When fighting, you should not harm women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, the wounded, the unarmed, the one who immediately say peace, livestock and vegetation.  Mutilation of corpses are forbidden etc.

In places like Kahmir, Southern Thailand and Philipines, Muslims are the agressors where they draw the first blood.

And don't forget, Muhammad himself had hide (in the mosque) from a peace offering by his own father-in-law when he came to renew the Treaty of Hubaidayah.

2) How to deal with non-Muslims in the community.
Should Muslims live in a non Muslim country, and as long as they have their right of worship, Muslims should cooperate with the non-muslim government.  The Quran does not stop there, it says the earth is huge, if you are oppressed in a non-muslim country migrate to another where you can worship freely.

In places like Kashmir, Philipines and South Thai, this failed once again. Muslims are not cooperating with non-Muslim government. :no:

And from his last sermon, "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action".

Hmph ... Muslims have no sense of humilty in them. They have the biggest Ego since Christians.

Compared to Respect and Humility which shown by Buddhist, Muslims are Nothing. ;)

3)  How to become a better person like what other religions have taught their followers.

There are aplenty and Muslims do not have to look at other (religions) in order to become a better person.

For example, from the sayings of Muhammad :-

- "What is Islam?" someone asked. Muhammad said, "urity of speech and charity."
- Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots.
- The best Muslim house is that in which is an orphan, who is benefited; and the worst Muslim house is that in which an orphan is ill-treated.
- The best of persons in God's sight is the best amongst his friends; and the best of neighbors near God is the best person in his own neighborhood.
- Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first
- Shall I tell you the very worst among you? Those who eat alone, and whip the slaves, and give to nobody.
- What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.
- He who is not kind to God's creatures, and to his own children, God will not be kind to him.
- The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie.
- He is the most perfect Muslim whose disposition is best; and the best of you are they who behave best to their wives.
- "Oh people, be mindful of those who work under you. Feed and clothe them as you feed and clothe yourselves."  


Oh please. ;)

If follow all above, I could be considered a better Muslims than most Muslims in this forum who claims themselves as "beriman" to Allah.

At least, can you at least swear (by your God as witness) that you have never intentionally lied? ;)

Sephiroth

by kyas

not all of the people who memorised quran died...

Fact is they did.

If Muhammad himself could make mistake in reciting Al Quran, what about others?

By right, Al Quran should be pen down during the time of Muhammad himself and then double checked with Muhammad and Jibrail. Muhammad didn't it ... I wonder why.

That is a grave mistake, which somewhat similar to what Muslim claims Paul did just a few generations away. I find it odd that Muhammad could make the same mistake with Al Quran.

Debmey Debmey Debmey, you never failed to make me laugh!

There are no dots in there!  Hahahaha sorry can't help it.  Ahem.. any person who can read the arabic alphabets can attest that there are no vowel lines in the script.

So basically Seph, you had no intention to learn but to mock?

Most here can find all the faults in every religion there is, but I won't stoop at your level and follow suit.

name one....

btw, you haven't answer my question...

Sephiroth

by samerosie

So basically Seph, you had no intention to learn but to mock?

It is not mockery. To my understanding, Islam is NOT perfect because of this grave mistakes. There is too many holes in it.

Most here can find all the faults in every religion there is, but I won't stoop at your level and follow suit.

Yes, most religions do have their faults in it - Hindusm with its Chaste problem, Buddhism with its no-God approach and no-much peace thing and Christianity with everything not fitting to their Bible.

Only different between them and Islam is that Muslims do not accept that there is a fault. Each decides to close eyes to all the fault in thier religion while busy converting others to the same mistake they are making.

By right, Al Quran should be pen down during the time of Muhammad himself and then double checked with Muhammad and Jibrail. Muhammad didn't it ... I wonder why.
----------
I guess you really didnt bother to read kyas's post.  Here are the first and second para of the post:-

During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)

The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation. Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit. Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use. Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.


During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an. Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.

Only different between them and Islam is that Muslims do not accept that there is a fault.
----
Faults such as?  Faults one see because they are not agreeable to one's ideology.

Sephiroth

by samerosie

Faults such as?  Faults one see because they are not agreeable to one's ideology.

Such as waging war against others (all because some incomplete religion says so) when you can live your lives peacefully.

Those who want to be in peace with others, you claim to be unIslamic and force them to wage war (even if it by effect of converting others).

So, 15 years later after Muhammad's death the various versions of Koran was burnt by Uthman for fear of discrepancies leaving only 1 version prepared under the order of Abu Bakar one year after the death of Muhammad.

That makes the oldest copy dated back to Abu Bakar, 1 year after Muhammad's death is still in the 7th century.

Sephiroth has got a point. And it is a good one! How can we be sure the Koran is perfect? Assuming that Gabriel did not appear after the death of Muhammad, there is no way we can verify it except the one from Abu Bakar. It also questions how some Muslims' contempt of St. Paul would be applied on their own having similar predicament of losing authority except the one came from the disciples/followers.

Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed"
Unfortunately, this has been manipulated with victimhood card.

Sephiroth

by Adm_Cheng_Ho

Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed"
Unfortunately, this has been manipulated with victimhood card.

Victimhood card? Yeah right (Sarcasm).

I can imagine bunch of Muslims fanatics, armed to the teeth with parangs, knife, guns and bombs crying been victimized by bunch of bare-footed monks who doesn't gives a damn about Politics or going to heaven.

They (Muslims) claims Allah have 99 names (including being Merciful, Forgiving and Loving) YET they (who follow Him) cannot even find ONE f#&king reasons to sit down peacefully and iron out their problems without yelling "Jihad" and land some plane into a building. ;)

zentex

Let me suggest that we stick to academic discussion, and I am addressing this to every one, including myself. Please, no disrespect as this is not encouraged in any religion.

aenemy7

go to my thread under "Canon Of The Bible"......

Allah Knows Best...
Peace Yall...

Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 29-11-2004 04:25 PM:
So, 15 years later after Muhammad's death the various versions of Koran was burnt by Uthman for fear of discrepancies leaving only 1 version prepared under the order of Abu Bakar one year after the ...

various versions of Koran??? so does this mean the one they got today could be the other version...i mean not the original version...

hmmm...you could lay a miilion proof under their nose...but they will only look straight up...

Sephiroth

by zentex

Let me suggest that we stick to academic discussion, and I am addressing this to every one, including myself. Please, no disrespect as this is not encouraged in any religion.  

Bullshit. ;)

If you want academic discussion, then gives the proof that Al Quran is not changed in anyway (by hands of Man) after Muhammad.

Like I said, I find it VERY ODD that Muslims (especially Muhammad) could repeat the same mistake Christians did and Abu Bakar and Caliph after them making the same mistake Paul did with the Bible.

Very very Odd indeed.

That's why I said you need to read kyas posting to the end before jumping the gun.

In his second last para, Zayed was entrusted by Abu Bakr to make copies from the one he had made and kept by Hafsa.

The key person here is Zayed.  Zayed was Muhammad's personal scribe and he was also present when Muhammad recited the Quran to Gabriel.  Zayed was still much alive during Abu Bakr and Uthman's caliphate.  

" As per the order of the third caliph, the committee wrote down the Qur抋n in accordance with the spelling of the Quraysh, so that it should conform to the accent (lehja) of the Prophet of Islam. Caliph Uthman subsequently ordered that all other copies of the Qur抋n, which people had written on their own, should be handed over to the government. These were all then burnt by his order".

Seph,

I remember you once or twice told T8 that he is arrogant.  What is arrogant when I see similarities between your posts and his.

Sephiroth

by samerosie

In his second last para, Zayed was entrusted by Abu Bakr to make copies from the one he had made and kept by Hafsa.

The key person here is Zayed.  Zayed was Muhammad's personal scribe and he was also present when Muhammad recited the Quran to Gabriel.  Zayed was still much alive during Abu Bakr and Uthman's caliphate.  

" As per the order of the third caliph, the committee wrote down the Qur抋n in accordance with the spelling of the Quraysh, so that it should conform to the accent (lehja) of the Prophet of Islam. Caliph Uthman subsequently ordered that all other copies of the Qur抋n, which people had written on their own, should be handed over to the government. These were all then burnt by his order".

I had seen the sentence stating that Zayed was present when Muhammad recite to Jibrail. That still have two problems :

1. Zayed was NOT commisioned by Muhammad to write down Al Quran but by Abu Bakar AFTER Muhammad's death.

2. There are still people who recite Al Quran who had died in war.


Even if Zayed managed to gather all resources and write down Al Quran, there is NO WAY he or anyone at that time could prove that the Al Quran which he managed to compile is accurate or complete one.

No one could prove that Al Quran is accurate because no one could be holy enough to reach Jibrail at that time. And you said yourself that even Muhammad needed Jibrail to correct his mistake.

No one could prove that Al Quran is complete because there are some reciters of Al Quran who was dead. Dead people don't talk. There is always some hole stating that Al Quran maybe missing a page or a surah or something like that because of this mess.


I remember you once or twice told T8 that he is arrogant.  What is arrogant when I see similarities between your posts and his.

Don't equalize me with that moron. :agr:

At least I have the decency to use a SINGLE nickname for nearly 1 and half years here. :no: