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Sunni's oldest Koran copy?

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Author: Adm_Cheng_Ho       Show all posts   Read mode

me This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 03:29 PM | Show all posts
name one....

btw, you haven't answer my question...
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Post time 29-11-2004 03:31 PM | Show all posts
by samerosie

So basically Seph, you had no intention to learn but to mock?

It is not mockery. To my understanding, Islam is NOT perfect because of this grave mistakes. There is too many holes in it.

Most here can find all the faults in every religion there is, but I won't stoop at your level and follow suit.

Yes, most religions do have their faults in it - Hindusm with its Chaste problem, Buddhism with its no-God approach and no-much peace thing and Christianity with everything not fitting to their Bible.

Only different between them and Islam is that Muslims do not accept that there is a fault. Each decides to close eyes to all the fault in thier religion while busy converting others to the same mistake they are making.
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 03:33 PM | Show all posts
By right, Al Quran should be pen down during the time of Muhammad himself and then double checked with Muhammad and Jibrail. Muhammad didn't it ... I wonder why.
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I guess you really didnt bother to read kyas's post.  Here are the first and second para of the post:-

During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)

The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation. Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit. Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use. Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.


During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an. Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 29-11-2004 03:36 PM | Show all posts
Only different between them and Islam is that Muslims do not accept that there is a fault.
----
Faults such as?  Faults one see because they are not agreeable to one's ideology.
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Post time 29-11-2004 04:04 PM | Show all posts
by samerosie

Faults such as?  Faults one see because they are not agreeable to one's ideology.

Such as waging war against others (all because some incomplete religion says so) when you can live your lives peacefully.

Those who want to be in peace with others, you claim to be unIslamic and force them to wage war (even if it by effect of converting others).
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Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
 Author| Post time 29-11-2004 04:25 PM | Show all posts
So, 15 years later after Muhammad's death the various versions of Koran was burnt by Uthman for fear of discrepancies leaving only 1 version prepared under the order of Abu Bakar one year after the death of Muhammad.

That makes the oldest copy dated back to Abu Bakar, 1 year after Muhammad's death is still in the 7th century.

Sephiroth has got a point. And it is a good one! How can we be sure the Koran is perfect? Assuming that Gabriel did not appear after the death of Muhammad, there is no way we can verify it except the one from Abu Bakar. It also questions how some Muslims' contempt of St. Paul would be applied on their own having similar predicament of losing authority except the one came from the disciples/followers.
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Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
 Author| Post time 29-11-2004 04:26 PM | Show all posts
Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed"
Unfortunately, this has been manipulated with victimhood card.
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Post time 29-11-2004 04:39 PM | Show all posts
by Adm_Cheng_Ho

Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed"
Unfortunately, this has been manipulated with victimhood card.


Victimhood card? Yeah right (Sarcasm).

I can imagine bunch of Muslims fanatics, armed to the teeth with parangs, knife, guns and bombs crying been victimized by bunch of bare-footed monks who doesn't gives a damn about Politics or going to heaven.

They (Muslims) claims Allah have 99 names (including being Merciful, Forgiving and Loving) YET they (who follow Him) cannot even find ONE f#&king reasons to sit down peacefully and iron out their problems without yelling "Jihad" and land some plane into a building. ;)
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Post time 29-11-2004 07:32 PM | Show all posts
Let me suggest that we stick to academic discussion, and I am addressing this to every one, including myself. Please, no disrespect as this is not encouraged in any religion.
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Post time 30-11-2004 12:52 AM | Show all posts
go to my thread under "Canon Of The Bible"......

Allah Knows Best...
Peace Yall...
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 30-11-2004 08:41 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 29-11-2004 04:25 PM:
So, 15 years later after Muhammad's death the various versions of Koran was burnt by Uthman for fear of discrepancies leaving only 1 version prepared under the order of Abu Bakar one year after the ...


various versions of Koran??? so does this mean the one they got today could be the other version...i mean not the original version...

hmmm...you could lay a miilion proof under their nose...but they will only look straight up...
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Post time 30-11-2004 08:54 AM | Show all posts
by zentex

Let me suggest that we stick to academic discussion, and I am addressing this to every one, including myself. Please, no disrespect as this is not encouraged in any religion.  

Bullshit. ;)

If you want academic discussion, then gives the proof that Al Quran is not changed in anyway (by hands of Man) after Muhammad.

Like I said, I find it VERY ODD that Muslims (especially Muhammad) could repeat the same mistake Christians did and Abu Bakar and Caliph after them making the same mistake Paul did with the Bible.

Very very Odd indeed.
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 30-11-2004 11:00 AM | Show all posts
That's why I said you need to read kyas posting to the end before jumping the gun.

In his second last para, Zayed was entrusted by Abu Bakr to make copies from the one he had made and kept by Hafsa.

The key person here is Zayed.  Zayed was Muhammad's personal scribe and he was also present when Muhammad recited the Quran to Gabriel.  Zayed was still much alive during Abu Bakr and Uthman's caliphate.  

" As per the order of the third caliph, the committee wrote down the Quran in accordance with the spelling of the Quraysh, so that it should conform to the accent (lehja) of the Prophet of Islam. Caliph Uthman subsequently ordered that all other copies of the Quran, which people had written on their own, should be handed over to the government. These were all then burnt by his order".
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 30-11-2004 11:03 AM | Show all posts
Seph,

I remember you once or twice told T8 that he is arrogant.  What is arrogant when I see similarities between your posts and his.
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Post time 30-11-2004 01:35 PM | Show all posts
by samerosie

In his second last para, Zayed was entrusted by Abu Bakr to make copies from the one he had made and kept by Hafsa.

The key person here is Zayed.  Zayed was Muhammad's personal scribe and he was also present when Muhammad recited the Quran to Gabriel.  Zayed was still much alive during Abu Bakr and Uthman's caliphate.  

" As per the order of the third caliph, the committee wrote down the Quran in accordance with the spelling of the Quraysh, so that it should conform to the accent (lehja) of the Prophet of Islam. Caliph Uthman subsequently ordered that all other copies of the Quran, which people had written on their own, should be handed over to the government. These were all then burnt by his order".


I had seen the sentence stating that Zayed was present when Muhammad recite to Jibrail. That still have two problems :

1. Zayed was NOT commisioned by Muhammad to write down Al Quran but by Abu Bakar AFTER Muhammad's death.

2. There are still people who recite Al Quran who had died in war.


Even if Zayed managed to gather all resources and write down Al Quran, there is NO WAY he or anyone at that time could prove that the Al Quran which he managed to compile is accurate or complete one.

No one could prove that Al Quran is accurate because no one could be holy enough to reach Jibrail at that time. And you said yourself that even Muhammad needed Jibrail to correct his mistake.

No one could prove that Al Quran is complete because there are some reciters of Al Quran who was dead. Dead people don't talk. There is always some hole stating that Al Quran maybe missing a page or a surah or something like that because of this mess.


I remember you once or twice told T8 that he is arrogant.  What is arrogant when I see similarities between your posts and his.

Don't equalize me with that moron. :agr:

At least I have the decency to use a SINGLE nickname for nearly 1 and half years here. :no:
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 30-11-2004 02:46 PM | Show all posts
Seph,

1. Zayed was NOT commisioned by Muhammad to write down Al Quran but by Abu Bakar AFTER Muhammad's death.
-------
From kyas post, first para:

"Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.


2. There are still people who recite Al Quran who had died in war.
-------------

True there were people who recited the Quran died in that war, but there were still some that had lived. We are not talking about 50-60 people who recited by heart but a few hundreds.

From kyas post first para, last line:
"Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use. Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart".


Even if Zayed managed to gather all resources and write down Al Quran, there is NO WAY he or anyone at that time could prove that the Al Quran which he managed to compile is accurate or complete one.
------
Explained in earlier posts.  Zayed was one of the scribes selected by Muhammad personally and had been there with Muhammad when writing the verses on the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades.  The compilation of the Quran was merely transferring those written the objects mentioned to a proper bounded book.  Zayed did not do it alone, he had the people who recited the verses with Muhammad, helping him.  



No one could prove that Al Quran is accurate because no one could be holy enough to reach Jibrail at that time. And you said yourself that even Muhammad needed Jibrail to correct his mistake.
-----------
As kyas post, Gibrael taught Muhammad 7 ways of reciting the verses.  Would I be correct to suggest that Muhammad couldn't have made any mistake at all in the recitation at first try?  Even we make blunders trying to speak a whole sentence. Muhammad was being taught not one, but 7 ways.  Muhammad was still a man.


Don't equalize me with that moron
----
Then, stop acting like him.  

Btw, one can still make a point sans vulgar.

[ Last edited by samerosie on 30-11-2004 at 02:48 PM ]
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Post time 30-11-2004 05:34 PM | Show all posts
"As kyas post, Gibrael taught Muhammad 7 ways of reciting the verses.  Would I be correct to suggest that Muhammad couldn't have made any mistake at all in the recitation at first try?  Even we make blunders trying to speak a whole sentence. Muhammad was being taught not one, but 7 ways.  Muhammad was still a man." - samerosie


--------------------------
Just to add further to what samerosie is saying.

The 7 recitation of the verses refers to 7 different style of reading. The recitation sessions Muhammad had with Gibrail was not the revelation itself, but done post revelation. This is possibly where the confusion is coming from.

Suppose, someone is teaching me the different ways of recitation (styles of reading), that does not change the text of the Quran no matter how many mistakes I have made.

[ Last edited by zentex on 30-11-2004 at 05:56 PM ]
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 1-12-2004 08:37 AM | Show all posts
no matter how many mistakes I have made.


that could change the text...
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Post time 1-12-2004 10:08 AM | Show all posts
by samerosie

"Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

So let me get this straight :

1. Surah come to Muhammad from Allah.
2. Muhammad gets someone to write down in things like wood, leather etc (without thinking of compiling it). Zayed was one of those present there.
3. Jibrail correct Muhammad's reciting and again, ppl like Zayed is around.
4. Muhammad dies (without telling his followers to compile Al Quran).
5. Abu Bakar decided to compile it because too many people have access to the original patchments which was written during Muhammad's time. Commisioned Zayed because he was there with Muhammad.
6. Zayed did his job and you have the current Al Quran. All other copies were burnt.

Fact no. 1 - ONLY qualification Zayed had for the task is because he was there years ago with Muhammad during the reciter.

Fact no. 2 - There is still NO prove in above statements that Al Quran which Muhammad receive and Al Quran you have is the same.

True there were people who recited the Quran died in that war, but there were still some that had lived. We are not talking about 50-60 people who recited by heart but a few hundreds.

But none of them have access to Jibrail who will correct them. Also, many of the 1st generations who was with Muhammad dies and those of the 2nd generation (like Quraisy) are Munafiks and do not know the whole Al Quran.

Even so it is by hundred, the new people joining in doesn't know about Al Quran as much as the 1st generation people.

Explained in earlier posts.  Zayed was one of the scribes selected by Muhammad personally and had been there with Muhammad when writing the verses on the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades.  The compilation of the Quran was merely transferring those written the objects mentioned to a proper bounded book.  Zayed did not do it alone, he had the people who recited the verses with Muhammad, helping him.  

Muhammad's reciter is based Jibrail's help who taught him how. Even if Zayed have hundred of reciters with him, NO ONE have access to Jibrail and NO ONE knows whether Al Quran which they compiling is 100% correct. :no:

Key character is here not Zayed or the recitars themselves, it is Jibrail who is more knowledge than Muhammad in Al Quran verses.

As kyas post, Gibrael taught Muhammad 7 ways of reciting the verses.  Would I be correct to suggest that Muhammad couldn't have made any mistake at all in the recitation at first try?  Even we make blunders trying to speak a whole sentence. Muhammad was being taught not one, but 7 ways.  Muhammad was still a man.

So is Zayed and other recitars. :ah:

If Muhammad himself need to be corrected in pronouncations and meanings of Al Quran by Jibrail, what is the condition with Zayed and others without Jibrail? :hmm:
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Post time 1-12-2004 10:56 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by samerosie at  11:03 AM:
Seph,

I remember you once or twice told T8 that he is arrogant.  What is arrogant when I see similarities between your posts and his.



he think he is very smart. the problem with him is "lack of sex".....i hve already inform him he should visit massage palour to get himself released/or those ah kuas to served him.
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Post time 1-12-2004 11:27 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Sephiroth at  01:35 PM:
Don't equalize me with that moron.



1) me moron? when i were here u learn alots about islam by me giving so many links

2) me moron? at least i used my own hard earn money to debate here . not like u missing on sunday and half day on saturday. that show how moron u are still working for company and taking advantage of company property ...by rite us should not be doing it.

3) me moron ? at least i hve run my own business. not like u makan gaji and can't even effort an officie /or run own business.

the moron is u like ular ananconda twisting tounge here and there.


cheers
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Post time 2-12-2004 06:37 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-11-2004 11:34 PM:
Let's try this. According to Sunni historians, the Koran was burnt. Why? This makes the oldest copy of Koran cannot be dated back to Muhammad's lifetime if we follow their version of Islamic histor ...



WHAT YOU MEANT?

According to few gay priest stated that it's ok to be gay!:

According to one gay priest claimed that homosexual is ok !:clap:

According to some forummers Bible didn;t exist at all!:lol

According  to some bishop claimed that Bibble is a like a fairy tales book!:geram:

According to me Bible is rubbish,which is not meant to be read but to throw!:bodek:

SO ACCORDING TO WHICH SUNNI HISTORIANS DID YOU REFER TO?
:stp::stp::stp::stp::stp:

So according to which Sunni historians that you mention above?
Please quote your sources,i would feel greatly to particpate in this debate!!:nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana:
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me This user has been deleted
Post time 2-12-2004 08:11 AM | Show all posts
i believe adm_cheng_ho is not christian...why suddenly bash the bible when you're answering his post??? i don't get this...
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Post time 2-12-2004 08:40 AM | Show all posts
by Truth.8

he think he is very smart. the problem with him is "lack of sex".....i hve already inform him he should visit massage palour to get himself released/or those ah kuas to served him.

Hmph ... And how do you know I'm lack of Sex? ;)

And besides, sex doesn't make a person smarter, it just gives man weak knees and woman stomach aches. ;)

1) me moron? when i were here u learn alots about islam by me giving so many links

I'd learnt nothing from you except how people can lie. Calling yourself Truth is a joke. :no:

2) me moron? at least i used my own hard earn money to debate here . not like u missing on sunday and half day on saturday. that show how moron u are still working for company and taking advantage of company property ...by rite us should not be doing it.

If you are here on Saturday and Sunday, it means you have NO social life whatsoever. ;)

The same Saturday and Sunday, I could be in arms of a lovely man or holding a young woman in my arms, dancing softly, staring at each other ... well, the rest is censored. None of your business anyway.

Or I could gear up - backpack, sword and camping equipments and head for the nearest hillside to spend a day and half with nature - God's creations.

Or simply walk around the city, visit museums (I see dead people ) or Art galleries or simply sit down in a park and view the beautiful sky.

As for me taking advantage of my company's properties ... that's none of your business. IF the company didn't want us to utilize the Internet Resources, then they couldn't have provided us with the links, now could they? ;)

3) me moron ? at least i hve run my own business. not like u makan gaji and can't even effort an officie /or run own business.

Hmph ... How do you know I don't run my own business? Have you ever thought that I could be sitting in my own office with others working for me and spending time chatting with you jokers? ;)

the moron is u like ular ananconda twisting tounge here and there.

Who's twisting tongue in here, multinick? :cak:
No one give a damn about you yet you come and disturb me.

[ Last edited by Sephiroth on 2-12-2004 at 08:42 AM ]
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Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
 Author| Post time 2-12-2004 08:45 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by me at 2-12-2004 08:11 AM:
i believe adm_cheng_ho is not christian...why suddenly bash the bible when you're answering his post??? i don't get this...

In which way do I bash the Bible? Copy the statement and paste it here. Then explain it.
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