samerosie This user has been deleted
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Seph,
1. Zayed was NOT commisioned by Muhammad to write down Al Quran but by Abu Bakar AFTER Muhammad's death.
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From kyas post, first para:
"Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
2. There are still people who recite Al Quran who had died in war.
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True there were people who recited the Quran died in that war, but there were still some that had lived. We are not talking about 50-60 people who recited by heart but a few hundreds.
From kyas post first para, last line:
"Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use. Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart".
Even if Zayed managed to gather all resources and write down Al Quran, there is NO WAY he or anyone at that time could prove that the Al Quran which he managed to compile is accurate or complete one.
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Explained in earlier posts. Zayed was one of the scribes selected by Muhammad personally and had been there with Muhammad when writing the verses on the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. The compilation of the Quran was merely transferring those written the objects mentioned to a proper bounded book. Zayed did not do it alone, he had the people who recited the verses with Muhammad, helping him.
No one could prove that Al Quran is accurate because no one could be holy enough to reach Jibrail at that time. And you said yourself that even Muhammad needed Jibrail to correct his mistake.
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As kyas post, Gibrael taught Muhammad 7 ways of reciting the verses. Would I be correct to suggest that Muhammad couldn't have made any mistake at all in the recitation at first try? Even we make blunders trying to speak a whole sentence. Muhammad was being taught not one, but 7 ways. Muhammad was still a man.
Don't equalize me with that moron
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Then, stop acting like him.
Btw, one can still make a point sans vulgar.
[ Last edited by samerosie on 30-11-2004 at 02:48 PM ] |
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"As kyas post, Gibrael taught Muhammad 7 ways of reciting the verses. Would I be correct to suggest that Muhammad couldn't have made any mistake at all in the recitation at first try? Even we make blunders trying to speak a whole sentence. Muhammad was being taught not one, but 7 ways. Muhammad was still a man." - samerosie
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Just to add further to what samerosie is saying.
The 7 recitation of the verses refers to 7 different style of reading. The recitation sessions Muhammad had with Gibrail was not the revelation itself, but done post revelation. This is possibly where the confusion is coming from.
Suppose, someone is teaching me the different ways of recitation (styles of reading), that does not change the text of the Quran no matter how many mistakes I have made.
[ Last edited by zentex on 30-11-2004 at 05:56 PM ] |
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me This user has been deleted
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no matter how many mistakes I have made.
that could change the text... |
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by samerosie
"Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him. The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
So let me get this straight :
1. Surah come to Muhammad from Allah.
2. Muhammad gets someone to write down in things like wood, leather etc (without thinking of compiling it). Zayed was one of those present there.
3. Jibrail correct Muhammad's reciting and again, ppl like Zayed is around.
4. Muhammad dies (without telling his followers to compile Al Quran).
5. Abu Bakar decided to compile it because too many people have access to the original patchments which was written during Muhammad's time. Commisioned Zayed because he was there with Muhammad.
6. Zayed did his job and you have the current Al Quran. All other copies were burnt.
Fact no. 1 - ONLY qualification Zayed had for the task is because he was there years ago with Muhammad during the reciter.
Fact no. 2 - There is still NO prove in above statements that Al Quran which Muhammad receive and Al Quran you have is the same.
True there were people who recited the Quran died in that war, but there were still some that had lived. We are not talking about 50-60 people who recited by heart but a few hundreds.
But none of them have access to Jibrail who will correct them. Also, many of the 1st generations who was with Muhammad dies and those of the 2nd generation (like Quraisy) are Munafiks and do not know the whole Al Quran.
Even so it is by hundred, the new people joining in doesn't know about Al Quran as much as the 1st generation people.
Explained in earlier posts. Zayed was one of the scribes selected by Muhammad personally and had been there with Muhammad when writing the verses on the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. The compilation of the Quran was merely transferring those written the objects mentioned to a proper bounded book. Zayed did not do it alone, he had the people who recited the verses with Muhammad, helping him.
Muhammad's reciter is based Jibrail's help who taught him how. Even if Zayed have hundred of reciters with him, NO ONE have access to Jibrail and NO ONE knows whether Al Quran which they compiling is 100% correct. :no:
Key character is here not Zayed or the recitars themselves, it is Jibrail who is more knowledge than Muhammad in Al Quran verses.
As kyas post, Gibrael taught Muhammad 7 ways of reciting the verses. Would I be correct to suggest that Muhammad couldn't have made any mistake at all in the recitation at first try? Even we make blunders trying to speak a whole sentence. Muhammad was being taught not one, but 7 ways. Muhammad was still a man.
So is Zayed and other recitars. :ah:
If Muhammad himself need to be corrected in pronouncations and meanings of Al Quran by Jibrail, what is the condition with Zayed and others without Jibrail? :hmm: |
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Originally posted by samerosie at 11:03 AM:
Seph,
I remember you once or twice told T8 that he is arrogant. What is arrogant when I see similarities between your posts and his.
he think he is very smart. the problem with him is "lack of sex".....i hve already inform him he should visit massage palour to get himself released/or those ah kuas to served him. |
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Originally posted by Sephiroth at 01:35 PM:
Don't equalize me with that moron.
1) me moron? when i were here u learn alots about islam by me giving so many links
2) me moron? at least i used my own hard earn money to debate here . not like u missing on sunday and half day on saturday. that show how moron u are still working for company and taking advantage of company property ...by rite us should not be doing it.
3) me moron ? at least i hve run my own business. not like u makan gaji and can't even effort an officie /or run own business.
the moron is u like ular ananconda twisting tounge here and there.
cheers |
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Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-11-2004 11:34 PM:
Let's try this. According to Sunni historians, the Koran was burnt. Why? This makes the oldest copy of Koran cannot be dated back to Muhammad's lifetime if we follow their version of Islamic histor ...
WHAT YOU MEANT?
According to few gay priest stated that it's ok to be gay! :
According to one gay priest claimed that homosexual is ok !:clap:
According to some forummers Bible didn;t exist at all!:lol
According to some bishop claimed that Bibble is a like a fairy tales book!:geram:
According to me Bible is rubbish,which is not meant to be read but to throw!:bodek:
SO ACCORDING TO WHICH SUNNI HISTORIANS DID YOU REFER TO?:stp::stp::stp::stp::stp:
So according to which Sunni historians that you mention above?
Please quote your sources,i would feel greatly to particpate in this debate!!:nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana::nana: |
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me This user has been deleted
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i believe adm_cheng_ho is not christian...why suddenly bash the bible when you're answering his post??? i don't get this... |
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by Truth.8
he think he is very smart. the problem with him is "lack of sex".....i hve already inform him he should visit massage palour to get himself released/or those ah kuas to served him.
Hmph ... And how do you know I'm lack of Sex? ;)
And besides, sex doesn't make a person smarter, it just gives man weak knees and woman stomach aches. ;)
1) me moron? when i were here u learn alots about islam by me giving so many links
I'd learnt nothing from you except how people can lie. Calling yourself Truth is a joke. :no:
2) me moron? at least i used my own hard earn money to debate here . not like u missing on sunday and half day on saturday. that show how moron u are still working for company and taking advantage of company property ...by rite us should not be doing it.
If you are here on Saturday and Sunday, it means you have NO social life whatsoever. ;)
The same Saturday and Sunday, I could be in arms of a lovely man or holding a young woman in my arms, dancing softly, staring at each other ... well, the rest is censored.  None of your business anyway.
Or I could gear up - backpack, sword and camping equipments and head for the nearest hillside to spend a day and half with nature - God's creations.
Or simply walk around the city, visit museums (I see dead people  ) or Art galleries or simply sit down in a park and view the beautiful sky.
As for me taking advantage of my company's properties ... that's none of your business. IF the company didn't want us to utilize the Internet Resources, then they couldn't have provided us with the links, now could they? ;)
3) me moron ? at least i hve run my own business. not like u makan gaji and can't even effort an officie /or run own business.
Hmph ... How do you know I don't run my own business? Have you ever thought that I could be sitting in my own office with others working for me and spending time chatting with you jokers? ;)
the moron is u like ular ananconda twisting tounge here and there.
Who's twisting tongue in here, multinick? :cak:
No one give a damn about you yet you come and disturb me.
[ Last edited by Sephiroth on 2-12-2004 at 08:42 AM ] |
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Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by me at 2-12-2004 08:11 AM:
i believe adm_cheng_ho is not christian...why suddenly bash the bible when you're answering his post??? i don't get this...
In which way do I bash the Bible? Copy the statement and paste it here. Then explain it. |
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me This user has been deleted
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not you...him - wira_melayu
i believe adm_cheng_ho is not christian...why suddenly bash the bible when you're answering his post??? i don't get this... |
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Adm_Cheng_Ho This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by wira_melayu at 2-12-2004 06:37 AM:
WHAT YOU MEANT?
According to few gay priest stated that it's ok to be gay!:
According to one gay priest claimed that homosexual is ok !:clap:
Accord ...
This is the type of response that brought SHAME to his religion when innocuous questions was asked of the believer of that religion. Well done!
me: my mistake. So early in the morning. hehe... |
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Originally posted by wira_melayu at 06:37 AM:
WHAT YOU MEANT?
According to few gay priest stated that it's ok to be gay!
According to one gay priest claimed that homosexual is ok !
According to some forummers Bible didn;t exist at all!
According to some bishop claimed that Bibble is a like a fairy tales book!
According to me Bible is rubbish,which is not meant to be read but to throw!
SO ACCORDING TO WHICH SUNNI HISTORIANS DID YOU REFER TO?
So according to which Sunni historians that you mention above?
Please quote your sources,i would feel greatly to particpate in this debate!!...
so making slanderous remarks about Christians. i can do the same to ur faith. so don't complaint that u will lodge police report and i do the same.
read the daily news; who and whos really commiting those acts. Hve u read long turban with long rob who pray 5x rapping his own daughter?
Go & correct ur religion first b4 judge on others |
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Originally posted by Sephiroth at 08:40 AM:
by Truth.8
he think he is very smart. the problem with him is "lack of sex".....i hve already inform him he should visit massage palour to get himself released/or those ah kuas to ...
it worthless to argue with u and such waste of time
bye |
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by Truth.8
it worthless to argue with u and such waste of time
Who asked you to argue? I was minding my own business (except when I told the other fellow not compare you and me) and you come busy-body in places not concerning you. |
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Originally posted by Sephiroth at 11:53 AM:
by Truth.8
it worthless to argue with u and such waste of time
Who asked you to argue? I was minding my own business (except when I told the other fellow not compare you and me) and ...
bye time waster |
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Originally posted by me at 2-12-2004 08:11 AM:
i believe adm_cheng_ho is not christian...why suddenly bash the bible when you're answering his post??? i don't get this...
I bash the bibble??ff:
Can you please read carefully what are my intends??:no:
Hope this wouldn't make you NUTS!:nana::nana::nana::nana::nana:
:nana: |
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Originally posted by Adm_Cheng_Ho at 28-11-2004 11:34 PM:
Let's try this. According to Sunni historians, the Koran was burnt. Why? This makes the oldest copy of Koran cannot be dated back to Muhammad's lifetime if we follow their version of Islamic histor ...
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Admiral,your reply:
The Prophet (saw) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saw) the seven modes of recitation.
Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.
The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.
Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.
During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)
Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)
Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah. |
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Originally posted by Sephiroth at 29-11-2004 04:39 PM:
by Adm_Cheng_Ho
Fighting is only prescribed when you are "oppressed"
Unfortunately, this has been manipulated with victimhood card.
Victimhood card? Yeah right (Sarcasm).
...
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Sephiroth,your replies;
Without commenting on any one specific group or nation, we would like you to know what the Islamic teachings regarding 'violence' are. We hope you will judge for yourself what the Islamic message regarding fighting in the name of Allah is. In the Holy Quran, the Muslim scripture, which we believe to be the revealed and absolute word of God, the Muslim are enjoined to 'strive' in the name of Allah, this is the true meaning of Jihad (the holy war). Jihad can be done in several ways, without ever picking up arms. People fail to understand the true philosophy of it and engage violently in territorial/political issues in the name of religion. Indeed the word Jihad is also applied for fighting in the cause of religion. Islam permits taking up arms only in opposition to people who themselves take up arms first. Islam does not allow Muslims while they are subjects of a non-Muslim ruler, who is fair to them, to rebel against him. Islam is not supposed to be spread by 'sword'. It's beautiful message always attracts people naturally. In the days of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him) who brought the message of Islam to this world, many battles were fought. It is ignorant to draw parallels with those times and take up arms in the name of Allah. In those days, 1,400 years ago, severe cruelty was employed and terror used to stop Islam from spreading. Over a period of thirteen long years many Muslims were brutally killed, because they believed in Allah. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) himself was persistently targeted with persecution. In return, he was the model of patience. However, when this cruelty exceeded all bounds Allah informed the Holy prophet (peace and blessings be on him) to go ahead and fight the oppressors. Those who believe that Islam's cause can be won through force and brutality and engage in violent actions are indeed ignorant of the real beauty of Islam. May Allah guide them. Amen.
So what do you think about the suicide bomber carried out by the Tamil Tigers?:
So what do you think about those Hindu extremist/terrorist that demolished
the mosque in Ayodhya in the name of their religion?
So do believe in Karma?:ah:
Why they are so many casthe in Hindu?
Do you believe in reincarnation?:stp: |
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Post time 30-11-2004 02:46 PM
Author
lol
