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Author: Debmey

Preparing Woman To Be Stoned

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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 08:46 AM | Show all posts
& apart from what i just said in my last thread, i wanna add that a mother's status also holds a high regards in Islam. As in:

Narrated Abu Huraira R.A: A man came to Allah's Messenger S.A.W and said, "O Allah's Messenger! Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" The Prophet S.A.W said, "Your mother." The man said. "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man further said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?"The Prophet said, "Your father. " [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8 Book 73 No 2]


Dear honeycomb,

Thanks for the posts above. Lets examine the hadith together shall we?
It shows one thing. Mothers are good companions, but it doesn't say that women are held in high regard.
Even if it implies that companionship means high regard, it applies only to mothers and not women in general. This means women are clearly not held in high regard cos that excludes non mothers. Also, Mohamad said 'your mother', this applies to only one woman for each person and not every woman to everyone.

I for one feel that dogs can make better companions than many humans. Does that mean to say that I hold dogs in high regard over many humans? Nope. companionship and regard are not the same thing things.  In the same breath, you can hold a person to high regard but that does not mean that person is necessarily a good companion. Are you getting the point? So how can you say that Islam hold women to high reagrad based on that hadith narration?

The above narration also shows that Mohamad didn't know what he was talking about. He answered 'your mother' three times before he mentioned 'your father'. When the person says next person, how can the next person apply to the same one person?

As for what you wrote earlier. You clearly said that women are held in high regard in Islam because there is a chapter titled 'women' in the Quran.  This is proven to be ridiculous because there are chapters titled 'The Cow', 'Livestock' and 'Spider' too. I bet you never read your Quran.

peace

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Post time 4-1-2005 08:54 AM | Show all posts
ah..this one is sooo easy...



WOMEN ARE NOT ONLY COMPANION, THEY ARE PARTNERS....PARTNERS...we share everything in life with our wifes, they are not simply our companion.



can u say, dogs is a man's best partner??


cant right

thats why women have a high place in Islam.


Regarding the name, its a name. the most important thing is the content.


we know Bush, not as the small jungle, but as a oilthirsty jewfearing man.

see?

bush=small jungle.

but in the entity he is a oilthirsty jewfearing man.

get it?
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 09:05 AM | Show all posts
Yes, dogs can be best partners to some people and indeed they do.
And it still does not mean women are held in high regard in Islam.  

And now you switch from Mohamad's talk about mothers and strayed to wife. Aren't you then trying to stretch the meaning of the hadith out of shape? Is your mother your wife? Even if you switch the word mother for wife in the hadith mentioned above, you will end up with an even bigger contradiction as muslims are allowed to have multiple wives.

Also, Muhamad mentioned that fathers can be good companions too in the same hadith, so can your father then be yoiur wife according to your definition & interpretation? Thats teh worst kind of incest anyone can think of.  


[ Last edited by Debmey on 4-1-2005 at 09:07 AM ]
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 4-1-2005 10:12 AM | Show all posts
This is proven to be ridiculous because there are chapters titled 'The Cow', 'Livestock' and 'Spider' too. I bet you never read your Quran.
--------
I bet you never read the Quran otherwise you can tell us why those chapters were named so.
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 10:38 AM | Show all posts
You will have to ask honeycomb cos she's the one who sets the criteria.
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Post time 4-1-2005 10:41 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 3-1-2005 03:05 PM:
Yes, dogs can be best partners to some people and indeed they do.
And it still does not mean women are held in high regard in Islam.  

And now you switch from Mohamad's talk about mothe ...


twist and turn!!yeehaww.


i explained everything without any twisting and turning.
even a kindergaten kid can understand me
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 11:06 AM | Show all posts
I didn't twist and turn, it was you who did it. Mo said 'mother & 'companion', he did not say 'wife', neither did he say 'high regard'.
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Post time 4-1-2005 11:14 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 3-1-2005 05:06 PM:
I didn't twist and turn, it was you who did it. Mo said 'mother & 'companion', he did not say 'wife', neither did he say 'high regard'.


if he didnt convey high regards, y did he repeated the word 'ummuka;(your mother) three times?
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samerosie This user has been deleted
Post time 4-1-2005 11:18 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 4-1-2005 10:38 AM:
You will have to ask honeycomb cos she's the one who sets the criteria.


It looks that you know more than honeycomb that's why I'm asking you.
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 11:45 AM | Show all posts
the emphasis was companionship, not high regard. Thats why he used it three times.
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Post time 4-1-2005 11:50 AM | Show all posts
can our mothers be our companion??

not ..

because they are our mothers.
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 11:51 AM | Show all posts
Thats what Mo said, mothers are good companions. period. Don't add to it.
Had women been highly regarded, muslimahs wouldn't be bullied by muslimins all over the world.
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Post time 4-1-2005 11:54 AM | Show all posts
give me the proove muhammad said women are companions.ONE hadith will do.



muslimah bullied? any proof to back this?
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 11:56 AM | Show all posts
Proof you say?

& apart from what i just said in my last thread, i wanna add that a mother's status also holds a high regards in Islam. As in:

Narrated Abu Huraira R.A: A man came to Allah's Messenger S.A.W and said, "O Allah's Messenger! Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" The Prophet S.A.W said, "Your mother." The man said. "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man further said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?"The Prophet said, "Your father. " [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8 Book 73 No 2]


Dear honeycomb,

Thanks for the posts above. Lets examine the hadith together shall we?
It shows one thing. Mothers are good companions, but it doesn't say that women are held in high regard.
Even if it implies that companionship means high regard, it applies only to mothers and not women in general. This means women are clearly not held in high regard cos that excludes non mothers. Also, Mohamad said 'your mother', this applies to only one woman for each person and not every woman to everyone.

I for one feel that dogs can make better companions than many humans. Does that mean to say that I hold dogs in high regard over many humans? Nope. companionship and regard are not the same thing things.  In the same breath, you can hold a person to high regard but that does not mean that person is necessarily a good companion. Are you getting the point? So how can you say that Islam hold women to high reagrad based on that hadith narration?

The above narration also shows that Mohamad didn't know what he was talking about. He answered 'your mother' three times before he mentioned 'your father'. When the person says next person, how can the next person apply to the same one person?

As for what you wrote earlier. You clearly said that women are held in high regard in Islam because there is a chapter titled 'women' in the Quran.  This is proven to be ridiculous because there are chapters titled 'The Cow', 'Livestock' and 'Spider' too. I bet you never read your Quran.

peace

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honeycomb This user has been deleted
Post time 4-1-2005 12:09 PM | Show all posts
ok, i'll try to make it clear to you. but all true Guidance is from Allah, & all mistake is from me. (if any) i hope Allah will forgive me & my fellow muslims will correct it (God Willing). as you read the Quran, you will find many verses that are devoted to protecting women & her rights. Surah An-nisa (4) is one surah heavily devoted to this.

Eg:----------------------------------------

1. if a man fears he can't be fair in polygamy, he should marry 1 only to prevent injustice. [refer 4:3]

2. men must give dowry to the woman he's marrying, [refer 4:4] & wed them properly with the permission of her parents (or guardians).

3. the woman he chooses must also be based on her religiousness [refer 4:25] (not beauty, wealth.. etc as in prev Hadith i've shared).

4. if divorce should occur, a husband cannot take back anything he has given to his wife. [refer 4:20]

5. both men & woman have legal, fair share in wills. [refer 4:7] (thus islam give women her rights to inheritance, at a time when there's no such rights at all before. maybe u'll say, the portions not equal, but remember... women have a right to his husband's / guardian's wealth. which equalises it indirectly.)

6. men are forbidden to inherit women against their will, or treat them with harshness. men must live with them honourably. If men dislike us, he might be disliking a great good from All鈎. [refer 4:19]

7. men are the protectors and maintainers of women. as like jewels, secured & cared properly, men is given heavier responsibitlities to protect & care for us. it's his responsibility to take VERY GOOD CARE of women. [refer 4:34] That's why men is more, as in more responsibilities.

----------------------------------------

All these verses are just in Surah An-Nisa [4]. There's so many more ayat (verses) to share in the Quran. An abundance of it. But I'm incapable to share it all here. My mentioning of Surah An-Nisa is to show the great devotion in protecting women, in Islam. Not as what you alleged.

And unlike those unfounded allegations, in true Islamic guidance, a muslim woman is highly regarded, protected, educated & cared for. (1) we're not judged by our great legs or bodies (as pure meat). we're judged by our good deeds & faith (religion). a woman judged by her good character & mind, is far more liberated than a woman judged purely by her sex-appeal.

(2) Even if women are educated & earn high incomes, yet it's still the duty of our husband/guardians to give us alimonies & provide good shelter, sustenance etc. it's still his responsibility, to take care for us.

(3) if we're widowed, we are cared for & never left lost to fend for ourselves.  Narrated Abu Hurairah R.A.: The Prophet S.A.W said, "The one who looks after a widow or a poor person is like a Mujahid (fighter) who fights for Allah's Cause, or like him who performs prayers all the night and fasts all the day." [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7 Hadith No. 265] Thus in Islam, (female) widows are never left in the lurch & helped in every possible way.

(to avoid misconception: to fight in Allah's Cause is about defending Islam when attacked, or striving for Good Cause (charity, aid etc)) i can say more, but i think it's enough for now.

on the mother as best companionship issue, i think anyone should be able to grasp the Hadith essence. it's so simple. if for you, you think best companionship with ur mother is equal with best companionship with ur dog, it's unfortunately sad isn't it? i never think like that, that's why i don't understand how u can even equate it. but well, i guess that's how u think.

plus u must remember, this Hadith is translated into English. Prophet Mohammed S.A.W never spoke English. so if you are not pleased with the translations (the word companionships, regards etc)... it's not Prophet Mohammad's S.A.W fault. learn Arabic if you want to understand the original, exact, Arabic verse. in Islamic studies, translations are done as exact as possible. some Arabic words are just not translable to english -- & substituted with the most closely-meant ones.

& he mentions mother 3x to show we must be more nicer to our mother. plus for greater remembrance to be nicer to mothers. not that father is not to be remembered, he is, but a mother, you must remember to treat her well 3x more. the Hadith's essence is simple enough to be grasp.

again, all true Guidance is from Allah, & all mistake is from me. (if any) i hope Allah will forgive me & my fellow muslims will correct it (God Willing).


PS: I read the Quran twice a day. I don't want to be bragging, but since you accused me of not reading it, I feel the need to clarify this.

[ Last edited by honeycomb on 4-1-2005 at 12:58 PM ]
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KENNKID This user has been deleted
Post time 4-1-2005 12:51 PM | Show all posts
Debmey: Mothers are good companions, but it doesn't say that women are held in high regard.

Even if it implies that companionship means high regard, it applies only to mothers and not women in general. This means women are clearly not held in high regard cos that excludes non mothers. Also, Mohamad said 'your mother', this applies to only one woman for each person and not every woman to everyone.


Firstly, the one who was asked and the one who was answering was the holy prophet, the messenger of God, whose very person  was regarded with the highest  regard, love  and respect accorded to any human being by his companions and Muslims as well as non Muslims
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 Author| Post time 4-1-2005 01:24 PM | Show all posts

1. if a man fears he can't be fair in polygamy, he should marry 1 only to  prevent injustice. [refer 4:3]

Even Mohamad, the ultimate Muslim have an Aisha whom he loved most. So how can any Muslim, man hope to be fair? So what is this polygamy system all about?
It would however be fair if women are allowed to have 4 husbands as long as she can be fair to all of them.





2. men must give dowry to the woman he's marrying, [refer 4:4] & wed them properly with the permission of her parents (or guardians).

Mo killed Safiyah's parents, raped her and then married her.




3. the woman he chooses must also be based on her religiousness [refer 4:25] (not beauty, wealth.. etc as in prev Hadith i've shared).

Not fair to the woman. Aisha had no choice, neither did Safiya and others.




4. if divorce should occur, a husband cannot take back anything he has given to his wife. [refer 4:20]

The husband gets everything under islamic law, he can don't give her anything.
And only the man can divorce his wife, just talaq 3 times. Women do not have the luxury.
Recently, there wa s acase in Iran where a man beats her wife everyday. The case went to court and the woman pleaded the judge to allow her husband to beat her only once a week. She knew very well that he could divorce her and she would be left with no support in an islamic society.




5. both men & woman have legal, fair share in wills. [refer 4:7] (thus islam give women her rights to inheritance, at a time when there's no such rights at all before. maybe u'll say, the portions not equal, but remember... women have a right to his husband's / guardian's wealth. which equalises it indirectly.)

Nope, sons get double teh inheritance of daughters.



6. men are forbidden to inherit women against their will, or treat them with harshness. men must live with them honourably. If men dislike us, he might be disliking a great good from All鈎. [refer 4:19]

Can women inherit men at all? Again unfair to women.




7. men are the protectors and maintainers of women. as like jewels, secured & cared properly, men is given heavier responsibitlities to protect & care for us. it's his responsibility to take VERY GOOD CARE of women. [refer 4:34] That's why men is more, as in more responsibilities.

Its sounds like a good master and slave relationshiop isn't it?
The man lord it over the woman and she has to serve him, but in return he takes care of her needs and protect her.
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Post time 4-1-2005 02:19 PM | Show all posts
lelaki dan wanita equal dalam islam..
perbezaan berlaku disebabkan fitrah lelaki dan perempuan itu sendiri.
lelaki dpt 2 per tiga harta drpd yg di tinggalkan dan perempuan dapat 1 per tiga. ini bukan nye sbb islam itu tidak adil, tetapi ini adalah disebabkan perempuan kan ada suami,ayah yang menanggungnya, dan suami (lelaki) pula kena menjalankan kewajiban dia menanggung isteri,dan adik beradik wanita yg belum bersuami.

sama juga mcm dalam kesaksian...
2 kesaksian perempuan sama dengan 1 kesaksian lelaki di mahkamah...
sebabnya perempuan ni kan emotional, mudah di gertak,mudah bimbang... itu kan fitrah wanita... yg lemah lembut hati nya.
sedangkan lelaki fitrah nye hati yg tidak mudah takut dan jauh pandangan.

perkahwinan nabi muhammad tu sebenarnya ada banyak kisah dan sebab.
org org kafir mmg suka menggunakan perkahwinan nabi muhammad untuk memfitnah islam..ramai juga yg memfitnah saiditina aishah r.a.

kita mesti ingat ye.... bahawa perkahwinan Rasulullah yg pertama adalah dengan siti khadijah yg lebih tua drpd dia.tua 15 - 20 tahun tau..bukan 2-3 tahun. dan dia tidak pernah beristeri sehinggalah saidatina khadijah wafat..tak sure lah waktu tu umur Rasulullah berapa. dan lepas tu Rasulullah berkahwin dengan seorang lagi wanita yg lebih tua drpd nabi..iaitu ummul mu'mineen saodah.dan saodah ni kata mutawwif aku dulu,berkulit hitam gelap.
dan selepas itu barulah Rasulullah berkahwin dengan Saidatina Aishah. dan ummul mu'mineen yg lain nya. perkahwinan Rasulullah dengan Aishah ni ada hikmahnya. iaitu saidatina Aishah ni muda belia dan bijak pandai. aku berpendapat hikmahnya ialah apabila setelah Rasulullah wafat, Aishah menjadi sumber rujukan bagi sahabat sahabat untuk mencari ilmu dan sebagai rujukan mereka.

dalam usia lebih separuh abad Nabi s.a.w berkahwin dengan beberapa org isteri terdiri dr kalangan janda janda,kecuali aishah seorang gadis,namun tujuan perkahwinan itu adalah semata mata kerana agama. (yg ni aku petik dr buku Sirah Nabawiyah ; insan teladan sepanjang zaman,author tuan guru nik abd aziz nik mat...nufair street 2004)

debmey dan kepada org org yg murtad kat sini... korang bacalah apa yg forummer islam yg ikhlas kat sini tulis..mcm honeycomb tu. penat dia type pepanjang and mencari rujukan bebanyak. jgn lah ditutup kan hati tu...

islam bukannye bermula setakat 1400 tahun dahulu je. bumi ini islam,langit islam,tumbuhan pun islam,udara yg korang sedut tu pun atas ihsan ALLAH
.semuanya menyembah ALLAH. ALLAH lah yg memilik semua nya kat sini.. kalau korang tak setuju dgn ALLAH,korang carik lah tempat lain yg bukan nye milik ALLAH..
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Post time 4-1-2005 02:27 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by bolehblah at  02:19 PM:
islam bukannye bermula setakat 1400 tahun dahulu je. bumi ini islam,langit islam,tumbuhan pun islam,udara yg korang sedut tu pun atas ihsan ALLAH
.semuanya menyembah ALLAH. ALLAH lah yg memilik semua nya kat sini.. kalau korang tak setuju dgn ALLAH,korang carik lah tempat lain yg bukan nye milik ALLAH.....



oh yeah???? sampai pancung kepala pun allah:lol
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Post time 4-1-2005 02:31 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Truth.8 at 4-1-2005 02:27 PM:



oh yeah???? sampai pancung kepala pun allah:lol


dont get u..
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