MO was not illiterate as claimed by muslims

Originally posted by samerosie at 10-1-2005 02:40 PM:
That has been answered again and again.  Scroll back to http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=137281&fpage=4


Posted by kyas

Compilation of the Qur'an

During the lif ...

why god doesn't want to give the message to muhammad himself...?

Originally posted by me at 2005-1-10 03:18 PM:


why god doesn't want to give the message to muhammad himself...?

You are a lost child 'Me'. Lost in the wilderness of the translations & manipulations and inventions of those who converted & brought you into that religion of paul's.

If you had read my discussions with 'Whitepig' with regard to God's Holy Essence under the topic "Who are they?"  you wouldn't be asking this question.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 10-1-2005 at 04:29 PM ]

In the Quran chapter 42 verse 51:
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

Originally posted by KENNKID at 10-1-2005 04:04 PM:


You are a lost child 'Me'. Lost in the wilderness of the translations & manipulations and inventions of those who converted & brought you into that ...

really? guess i missed that post...

can you explain it here...?

why god didn't tell muhammad himself...?

The answer is staring at you in the face.

Originally posted by samerosie at 10-1-2005 04:21 PM:
The answer is staring at you in the face.

really...you mean that black dot on the monitor...?

Originally posted by me at 10-1-2005 05:09 PM:


really...you mean that black dot on the monitor...?

No, that's only in your mind.

Originally posted by samerosie at 2005-1-10 04:21 PM:
The answer is staring at you in the face.

Islam agrees with Christians that angels are God's messengers. In your over-zealousness to attack Islam you have even forgotten (in fact I think  you don't even know) about what the bible says about angels and their roles.

The link below  is that of a christian website and not a Muslim website. Muslims bear no responsibility for whatever blasphemous explanation written by those who produce this website. Islam agrees that Angel's are God's messengers, but not quite the way you people have exaggerated about it as contained in this website & your bible.

:hmm: http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/angels.htm

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 10-1-2005 at 05:16 PM ]

ummm...yea? congratulation, you have been pick as the first runner up for website promoting...the winner goes to aenemy

Originally posted by me at 2005-1-10 05:16 PM:
ummm...yea? congratulation, you have been pick as the first runner up for website promoting...the winner goes to aenemy

Thats all you can say? Just goes to show how shallow your mind is. Oh, I forgot, you're a mere  teenager.

snipersnake

okaaaaayy..if muhammad can read..why was the first revelation given to him was

' iqraq bismi robbikal lazi holaq'
Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),


why?

In exodus 24, they saw the God of Israel and they ate and drink with Him.  But in exodus 33, god said whoever sees his face would not live.  And then in Lev 9 god showed himself again to the people.

Also god in numbers 12 said if there is god prophet, god reveals himself as a vision and/or speak to the prophet in dreams, only Moses the exception.

Originally posted by snipersnake at 10-1-2005 05:23 PM:
okaaaaayy..if muhammad can read..why was the first revelation given to him was

' iqraq bismi robbikal lazi holaq'
Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),


why?

if muhammad can read???

then again...what are there to read...did gabriel gave muhammad a book to read...?

snipersnake

Originally posted by me at 9-1-2005 11:29 PM:


if muhammad can read???

then again...what are there to read...did gabriel gave muhammad a book to read...?

no he didnt gave muhammad a book..because he cant read

ashna

Originally posted by KENNKID at 10-1-2005 05:19 PM:


Thats all you can say? Just goes to show how shallow your mind is. Oh, I forgot, you're a mere  teenager.

owned.

i notice it long time ago about "me". i think he/she is not that bright.

Originally posted by me at 2005-1-10 05:29 PM:


if muhammad can read???

then again...what are there to read...did gabriel gave muhammad a book to read...?

In the cave of hira...the angel Gabriel suddenly appeared before him and ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, proclaim). Muhammad (peace be upon him), in his terror thought he was being asked to read, so he stammered: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel again ordered him to "Iqra!" Muhammad (peace be upon him) again replied: "I am unlettered."

The angel Gabriel now took a firm hold of him and commanded him "Iqraa in the name of Allah who created!". Now Muhammad (peace be upon him) began to understand that he was not being asked to read, but to recite, to repeat. He began to repeat after him, and Gabriel revealed to him the first verses of the Qur'an, those at the beginning of the chapter of Al-Alak(96)



http://www.understanding-islam.c ... estion&qid=2399

Originally posted by KENNKID at 2005-1-10 05:49 PM:




In the cave of hira...the angel Gabriel suddenly appeared before him and ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, pr ...

Hmmm, again this address the point of understanding and the possibility and probability that different understandings may emerge from such recital. The point made earlier that the Arabic words itself contained the meaning and hence, through memorization, it will somehow compel understanding is something I have yet to comprehend.

During the course of language evolution, Arabic itself was 'modified' accordingly. Muslim scholar justified this 'modification' only as to improve the pronounciation of the words and does not alter its meaning. Yet, by addressing that issue alone, it gives rise to the very real possibility and probability that scholars could alter its meaning (opposing to the belief that the words and meanings of the Koran is protected by the hands of Allah and that today's version is the same as the one in Paradise). Indeed, some of the words and meanings were removed from the Koran, however, it was argued by Muslim scholars that these were mere footnotes, again going against the belief that the Koran is verbatim to what was utter during Muhammad's time.

Note as well, the progession of human history, the discontentment between the various branches of Muslims and also the existing codices of various text, their variations in terms of order, structure and ultimately meaning.

I can be faulted here for not providing any links which I might in the future should time permits me to post.

However, just a simple advise for those Christians interested in inter-faith matters. Always read the Bible, adopt both a literal and contextual approach. See how and why particular statements are made, reference them in relation to the OT. I would advise against simply going online and getting a 'scholar's responce' on the matter. Examine the core texts if you have the time.

Originally posted by WinterNights at 2005-1-10 06:08 PM:


Hmmm, again this address the point of understanding and the possibility and probability that different understandings may emerge from such recital. The point made earlier that the Arabic words  ...

Do I sense a fear here? How can anyone even begin to judge with the best of judgements when one's  knowledge is from 'the other side of  the fence'? Enter the arena first and then discover. The first step is to learn Arabic and then hold discussions with Muslims who are fluent in the Qur'an in knowledge as well as linguistically. Otherwise remain silent because (excuse me for saying this), you're not qualified to comment on the Arabic language viz-a-viz The Qur'an..

I can be faulted here for not providing any links which I might in the future should time permits me to post.

No, you will not be faulted, unless those views & suggestions are not your own, but 'modified' from some website which you would rather not expose & share with us. Even then its your own guilty conscience and nobody would purposely point fingers without clear & obvious evidence.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 10-1-2005 at 11:11 PM ]

nightlord

My contention here is very simple.

THE QURAN IS A COMPILATION OF TEXT ATTRIBUTED TO MUHAMMAD BUT NO ONE CAN PROVE BEYOND A DOUBT THAT THESE TEXTS ARE ACTUALLY ORIGINALS OR FORGERIES.

Due to the struggle for power by the Caliphs( remember they have tasted power over followers of Islam) and wish to maintain such control over the masses.

Muhammad never compiled any QURAN as we know it today.

SO HOW CAN MUSLIMS CLAIM THAT THE QURAN WAS ORIGINAL AND FROM MUHAMMAD?


NIGHTLORD

Originally posted by nightlord at 2005-1-11 12:43 AM:
My contention here is very simple.

THE QURAN IS A COMPILATION OF TEXT ATTRIBUTED TO MUHAMMAD BUT NO ONE CAN PROVE BEYOND A DOUBT THAT THESE TEXTS ARE ACTUALLY ORIGINALS OR FORGERIES.

Due to t ...

From the time when his soul was intact with his physical in this world, through  to the time of the  return of the holy prophet (peace be upon him) to The Lord's Grace, until now and in the future, Muslims have been memorizing and reciting the Qur'an, in their five daily prayers, in  their supplications, at any time of the day when they need solace and comfort from The Almighty - and no new verses, no change in verses and no extraction of words and verses have taken place. How can you say what lies in the hearts and uttered by the tounge, and proven to be consistent and verified true to be forgeries?

That is the hikma [the hidden wisdom] behind why The Qur'an, like no other books claiming to be from God is to be recited & committed to the heart & not just read.

The word Qur'an itself means "Recitation."

The Arabic word 'qur'an' is derived from the root qara'a, which has various meanings, such as to read, [Sura 17: 93.] to recite, [Sura 75:18:17: 46.] etc.  Qur'an is a verbal noun and hence means the 'reading' or 'recitation'. As used in the Qur'an itself, the word refers to the revelation from Allah in the broad sense [Sura 17: 82.] and is not always restricted to the written form in the shape of a book, as we have it before us today.

However, it means revelation to Muhammad only, while revelation to other prophets has been referred to by different names (e.g. taurat, injil, kitab, etc.).

The word 'yatlu' which means 'recite' per se is also found in the Qur'an.


搮For Allah has sent down  to you the Book and the Wisdom and taught you what you knew not厰 (4:113)

Also interesting to note is that the teaching of the Messenger of the Book and the Wisdom is always tied to him reciting the Ayaat of the Qur抋n; see for example:

揂llah did confer a great favor on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting [Yatlu] to them the Ayat (verse) of Allah, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the Wisdom, while before that they were in manifest error