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Author: Oreng

Stupid way of showing love...

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Post time 2-2-2005 12:04 PM | Show all posts
Well I do respect what u believe.
For us Muslim, we believe everything is created by God the Creator.
Sin is a knowledge.
Good will not manifest if there is no sins.
And how men will understand what they do is sinful act?
Without the knowledge, men will be lost.
And knowledge is created by God.
It is the knowledge that has been given by God himself, to understand the criterion right or wrong.
And God that is so love and He not leave the human being without guidance.
He knows human tends to forget, so He give human knowledge to repent.
God knows, caused He is the one who creat. He also created men with the quality of free will.
Free will without guindance, where it will ended?
Free will without knowldege there is punishment waiting when you do bad things, then everybody will enjoying themselve doing sinful act.
Free will without the knowledge that we will rewarded when we do good thing, then there will no motivation for man for doing the good thing instead.
And above of all, as God Love quality has been manifest, even when you do many sinful acts, God always give you infinity chances for you to repent.

[ Last edited by sakinahmawaddah on 2-2-2005 at 12:28 PM ]
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Post time 2-2-2005 12:27 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2-2-2005 11:51 AM:


Then i ask you what is sin? How do you define sin. Sin is anything that againts God's Law or the will of God. Example when you lie to your parents, then you have sinned because God said not to  ...


How do u know God's Law for sure or may I asked what is God's Law.
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Post time 2-2-2005 12:29 PM | Show all posts
Perhaps if explain it this way. Let say if i have the ability to create vacuum in space.

   I'll take away the air, and i'll take away the particles out of that space. So the void that remains in that space is what we called vacuum. The vacuum is not a thing in itself, but the term we use to say everything is gone in that space.

Same thing with sins. Sins are not "things" in and of itself.  but are the labels given to actions or characteristics that do not meet the goal of perfection. Sins is the "absence" of all the things God did make.

So Oreng, i'll ask you again how would you define sins.
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Post time 2-2-2005 12:45 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by sakinahmawaddah at 2-2-2005 12:27 PM:


How do u know God's Law for sure or may I asked what is God's Law.



Isn't the laws or the wills of God is in the bible, the quran or the tanakh. Example in christianity we have the 10 commandments. How about the Quran?
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Post time 2-2-2005 12:58 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2-2-2005 12:45 PM:

Isn't the laws or the wills of God is in the bible, the quran or the tanakh. Example in christianity we have the 10 commandments. How about the Quran?


Ok, I get the point. There are various laws in the Quran, but to xplain here it might get lengthy. New thread will do.
But to be clear, the biggest sinful act to be done by human being is worship other than the God, the One and Only.
31:13 Behold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction: "O my son! join not in worship (others) with Allah. for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing."
I believe this is too the first commandments.
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 Author| Post time 2-2-2005 01:11 PM | Show all posts
Perhaps if explain it this way. Let say if i have the ability to create vacuum in space.

   I'll take away the air, and i'll take away the particles out of that space. So the void that remains in that space is what we called vacuum. The vacuum is not a thing in itself, but the term we use to say everything is gone in that space.

Same thing with sins. Sins are not "things" in and of itself.  but are the labels given to actions or characteristics that do not meet the goal of perfection. Sins is the "absence" of all the things God did make.

So Oreng, i'll ask you again how would you define sins.
Sin is a concept. Conceptwise, it is similar to 'good' or 'bad', 'high' or 'low' etc. Of course, God created these concepts. If it is not God who created these concepts then it must be some other powerful entity. God give man brain, heart and soul to identify these concepts. It seems, in your mind, the 'sin' concept comes from something else, not god creation. God creation not necessarily physical, that is how God is Great, not god who succumb to man's wishes like christianity believe.
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Post time 2-2-2005 01:15 PM | Show all posts
So why are Muslims trying to subject God to their expectations?
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Post time 2-2-2005 01:21 PM | Show all posts
what is our expectation?
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Post time 2-2-2005 01:33 PM | Show all posts
Yu expect God cannot be Trinity and God unable to appear in the form of a man.
You mean you fellas make God or what?
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Post time 2-2-2005 01:37 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 2-2-2005 07:33 AM:
Yu expect God cannot be Trinity and God unable to appear in the form of a man.
You mean you fellas make God or what?



you think you are god or what, deb?
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Post time 2-2-2005 01:51 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 2-2-2005 01:33 PM:
Yu expect God cannot be Trinity and God unable to appear in the form of a man.
You mean you fellas make God or what?


well Deb, we will speak with the guidance that has been send down by God himself.

Quran said,
112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

Bible said,
KJV - 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Upanishad
He is one only without second

Deut 6:4
The Lord our God is one Lord
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Post time 2-2-2005 02:05 PM | Show all posts
Bible said,
KJV - 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

That includes the god of the Quran.



Deut 6:4
The Lord our God is one Lord


Deu 6:4 -
Hear, O Israel - שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד
shema Yisrael, Yehovah Elohim, Yehovah achad.

Plurality(Elohim) is One it says. This clearly reinforces the Trinity rather than dispels it.
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Post time 2-2-2005 02:09 PM | Show all posts
pardon me!!!

oh... excuse me!!!

eloh in hebrew mean god. singular god

-im mean, the honour, the great (praising)

so, elohim means literally, the great god... not great gods...

oh please learn something about hebrew debmey...

clearly, you are no linguist to claim this!
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Post time 2-2-2005 02:15 PM | Show all posts
Elohim is gods, not great god.
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 Author| Post time 2-2-2005 03:22 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-2-2 01:15 PM:
So why are Muslims trying to subject God to their expectations?

What make you conclude that muslims trying to subject god to our exoectation ?

I think you christians are the one that subjecting god to your expectation. We muslims believe that God is The Creator of all including the concept of 'sin', but you christians believe that 'sin' is not created by God but appear from thin air !! By this, christians make God appear less powerful. Now, who actually subject god to man's expectation ? By saying God is most powerful it means we muslims is not subjecting God to anything, but you christians say that God cannot create the concept of 'sin', so it means you are the one who limit your expectation of God.
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Post time 2-2-2005 03:30 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by Debmey at 2-2-2005 08:15 AM:
Elohim is gods, not great god.


really?

eloh mean gods?

who teach you that?

any jews guy? or holy ghost transpire you?


The word Eloh mean '' Those Beings '' An Eloh Is A singular or an individual Eloheem , Each man is an Eloh . Any Eloheem can be an Eloh . When the Hebrew Letters Yod and Miym are added to Eloh As a Suffix , You get the word to Eloheem Which is The Plural from of Eloh .


The word Eloh mean '' Those Beings '' In the Ashuric / Syriac Arabic Language It Is Pronounced ILAHAYNI in the strongs and Logos , Lexicon . The word Elohinu is falsely translated as The word Eloheem means '' These Beings '' Or '' A Group Of Elohs'' Eloheem are angels of El messengers of El , Eloh , If your Hebrew Scholars are translating the Bible from the Aramic Hebrew . There Is No Way possible that you can mistaken the Aramic Hebrew word Elohinu for Eloheem Unless it is done Deliberately For Misconcerption ..


you can find more about this....

http://www.solbaram.org/articles/gennam.html

good for you

[ Last edited by greekgod on 2-2-2005 at 09:40 AM ]
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Post time 2-2-2005 03:51 PM | Show all posts
Oreng,

If you believe God is the creator of all things then fine. What i'm trying to explain is sin exist because lack of God in man's thoughts. Sin exist because man rebel againts God. We commit sins because we don't follow God's laws thus making US humans the author of sins not God. Didn't God say when He created the world, that all is good?

   Now i ask you if you beliieve God created sins why did He forbid us sin? Isn't God contridicting Himself here. You might say God create sins so when man commit sins they will repent and ask for forgiveness.

   Are you saying God create sins, so when man commit sin but then ask for forgiveness, God will forgive them so man will follow Gods way?

[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 2-2-2005 at 03:52 PM ]
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Post time 2-2-2005 05:01 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2-2-2005 03:51 PM:

Now i ask you if you believe God created sins why did He forbid us sin? Isn't God contridicting Himself here. You might say God create sins so when man commit sins they will repent and ask for forgiveness.


God created the concept "good deeds and sins" and "forbid committing sins but encourage to do the good deeds",will not contradict Himself in anyway. With this, the concept of free will, will manifest.
It shows that man can do what ever they choose to do.
But leaving man with their free will, will make this earth into chaos.
So God send the guidance for men to live this live.
Whosoever do righteous deeds he will rewarded.
Whosoever do sins he will be punish.
But before the end of time, everybody have the infinity chances to repent (of course the are specific guidance to repent in Islam).

Even God created sins and forbid human committing sins, it will never contradict Himself.

Let reasons together,

A car manufacturer produce a car.
So how a driver to use the car at it best, he had to follow the manual that had been given by car manufacturer (coz the manufacturer know it best).
The manufacturer said if the fuel tank is empty, fill with petrol.
And he also say, do not fill with water.
But the driver have the choice weather to fill in with petrol or to fill in with water (free will).
So it always the driver's call.


God created man.
God knows everything about man and its quality.
He always knows men tends to make mistake, but He is The Most Gracious The Most Merciful give all the guidance that man needs.
Its always the men's call.

[ Last edited by sakinahmawaddah on 3-2-2005 at 07:19 AM ]
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Post time 3-2-2005 07:55 AM | Show all posts
just asking, if the concept of sin is not created by God, why we should repent to God for our sin? It seem like He has nothing to do with it.

And if sin is not exist (if sin is not created), how human can inherited sin as what Christian believe they inherited sin from Adam and Eve.
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Post time 3-2-2005 08:45 AM | Show all posts
In the bible, it is clearly stated what God wants us to do,or not do or what He expect us to become. Once we rebel againts Him we are already sinful. As i mentioned earlier, God gives us free will, to choose what is right and what is wrong. In other words, God didn't make us to sin but its ourself. Remember when we're still a child, our parents tell us not to lie, or not to steal but we do it anyway. Why did we do it? Did our parents make we do it? Ofcourse not. Parents teaches us to do good things, same thing with God.

As your question regarding original sins, God did not create Adam and Eve with sins. Again God did not ask Adam to eat the apple, but is satan that deceived him to do it.
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