Stupid way of showing love...

DivinePonytail

Again you may say, "creating" sins and "commiting" sins is a whole different thing. But arent we "creating" sins when we "commit" them?

   Anyway whether God create sins or not, its actually doesn't matter because whats matter is we are not suppose to sins. What we do after we're sinful to God that is the most important thing.

[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 3-2-2005 at 08:58 AM ]

Oreng

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-2-2 03:51 PM:
Oreng,

If you believe God is the creator of all things then fine. What i'm trying to explain is sin exist because lack of God in man's thoughts. Sin exist because man rebel againts God. We comm ...

PonyTail, during Adam's time, brother can marry his sister. It is not a sin. Adam's son and daughter did not commit a sin when they marry each other. The concept of sin did not exist for that issue. But now, marriage between brother and sister is a sin. The concept of sin become exist. Who tell us about this if not God. He is The One who introduce to us (through our thought) this concept of sin for marriage between brother and sister.

You are still confuse between creation of concept of sin with committing a sin. When God create the concept of sin, He is not comitting a sin. The issue of contradiction thus does not arise.

You know that bad smell is not good. But who provide the chemistry to allow the development of bad smell to occur if not God. Man does not have the capability to produce the chemistry. Man only know through experience  if they dont take bath, bad smell would develope. Through this experience man can learn to avoid the bad smell. Do you blame God for creating the chemistry for bad smell development or do you think the chemistry is develope by another being ?

Oreng

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-2-3 08:56 AM:
Again you may say, "creating" sins and "commiting" sins is a whole different thing. But arent we "creating" sins when we "commit" them?

   Anyway whether God create sins or not, its actually doesn't matter because whats matter is we are not suppose to sins. What we do after we're sinful to God that is the most important thing.

If you think it is does not matter whether God create sin or not, why then you think God ask you to avoid sin ? why is He interested in the subject of sin ? Who tells you that stealing is a sin ? Who tells you that cheating is a sin ? You think this concept exist from thin air ? You are denying the power of God. I know you want to make God appear very holy, but God is not only holy but also most powerful. Creating the concept of sin is for the man He create, not for Him. Creating the concept of sin is not a sin by itself.

You are talk about 'sinful to God'. If He is not the one who create the concept of sin, does the phrase has any meaning to Him ? then, may be it has meaning to you, but not to Him.

Debmey

PonyTail, during Adam's time, brother can marry his sister. It is not a sin. Adam's son and daughter did not commit a sin when they marry each other. The concept of sin did not exist for that issue. But now, marriage between brother and sister is a sin. The concept of sin become exist. Who tell us about this if not God. He is The One who introduce to us (through our thought) this concept of sin for marriage between brother and sister.

That yu have to go back to the concept of the fallen nature of man through Adam.
Marriage between brothers and sisters was clearly not sin among Adam's children. If yu read the Bible, you will notice that the lifespan of man fell for the first for the first 1000 years of human existence. This fallen nature degerates mankind and marriage between brothers and sisters later became sin because inbreeding is harmful to fallen humans.
In other words, the concept of sin already exists after Adam has fallen.

You are still confuse between creation of concept of sin with committing a sin. When God create the concept of sin, He is not comitting a sin. The issue of contradiction thus does not arise.

God did not create sin. Sin is simply absence of holiness.

sakinahmawaddah

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-2-2005 10:24 AM:

God did not create sin.

if the whole concept of sin did not created by God, then why you repent to God? if God did not created the concept of sin, it only shows that sin is nothing to do with Him.
if the concept of sin is not created by God, how you gain this knowledge?

Debmey

Its simple, because holiness is a character of God and sin violates his character and hurts others. Thats why we need to repent of sin.

You didn't create a car, God didn't create a car too, so how do you know one? You didn't create a lot of stuff too BTW. Do you see the logical fallacies in your argument?

Debmey

BTW, are yu saying that Allah created sin?

sakinahmawaddah

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-2-2005 11:05 AM:
Its simple, because holiness is a character of God and sin violates his character and hurts others. Thats why we need to repent of sin.

You didn't create a car, God didn't create a car too, so h ...

U too bonded with this logical fallacies u given us Debmey.
U too dont create many thing.
the problem is, you have bonded your God to limited term of God of yours.
And u want your God to suit your desires.
What we believe, everything that can be achieve of your senses, by technologies, what belong in this earth everything, even all the thing you dont know yet, is all created by God.
He is the know all the things.

You logic will never accepted by other.
You said God dont creat the concept of sin.
But yet you repent of your sin to God.
Isnt this very confusing.

Let say you steal a cloth made by a person.
But the person say he never make a cloth.
and then you apologize to him.
Is this logic to u deb.

Oreng

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-2-3 10:24 AM:
That yu have to go back to the concept of the fallen nature of man through Adam.
Marriage between brothers and sisters was clearly not sin among Adam's children. If yu read the Bible, you will notice that the lifespan of man fell for the first for the first 1000 years of human existence. This fallen nature degerates mankind and marriage between brothers and sisters later became sin because inbreeding is harmful to fallen humans.
In other words, the concept of sin already exists after Adam has fallen.

God did not create sin. Sin is simply absence of holiness.

hi debmey, you talk about the fallen nature of man, and you mention that this is in the bible. so, from your perspective, this fallen nature of man is created by itself ? meaning your say god is holy but not very powerful and encompassing.

Anyway nobody understand what is this : "the fallen nature of man".

You say the concept of sin exist after Adam has fallen. Why only after Adam has fallen ? Who told you about this concept ? From where you know about this concept ?

You say sin is simply an absence of holiness. Who create the nothingness or absence or vacuum ? By itself ? meaning there must be another god that can create what your god cant ?

Debmey

Sin is not fropm God, thats why we need to repent when we commit sin.

Are yu saying that sin is from Allah?

Debmey

sin is simply the absence of holiness. When God's holiness is not there, we call it sin.
This fallen nature concept is very much part of Christianity, it just that yu never heard of it from your imams cos they hid it from you.
Why don't yu do a google search on 'fallen nature', i'm sure yu can find lots of writings on Christian sites. Don't trust me, do a searchg yourself.

sakinahmawaddah

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-2-2005 12:11 PM:
Sin is not fropm God, thats why we need to repent when we commit sin.

Are yu saying that sin is from Allah?

you ask forgiveness from God which is He tell you that sins is nothing to do with Him (based on your logic and your explanation caused u said God not creating the concept of sin?
Thing is not created is simply do not exist. So who created the sins?
Is there another powerful God then the God you worship (who not be able to creat sin)?
Where do you know the concept of sin?
You say God write the Bible, but he did not creat sin. But I see 'sin' everywhere in the Bible. So who did this?
Either the Bible is not word from God (caused he not invented the concept of sin).
or
God invented concept of sin.

Simpe logic: Thing that is not created simply doesnt exist.

Debmey

I can see yu are getting shaky and unsetlled here. Its no wonder you refused to read what is so simple. Sin is simply the absence of holiness.
God did not create sin.

According to your logic, Allah must have created sin and then punishes you for doing something he created. Is that what yu are saying? Don't you find yourself stuck already my fren? Are you sure you wanna adopt islamic doctrine of sin and punishment?  

DivinePonytail

I think i begining to see what is misunderstood here.

But before that may i ask you (sakinah or oreng), why do we sin or what causes us to sin? Answer this first then we can continue...

Oreng

We commit a sin because at that time of committing (doing) we are weak, or under the great influence of satan, or ... many other reasons.

Just like 'eating'.. it is a concept... you commit (do) eating becaiuse you feel hungry, or your mother ask you to eat.... many other reasons.

can we continue ?

Oreng

Originally posted by Debmey at 2005-2-3 03:07 PM:I can see yu are getting shaky and unsetlled here. Its no wonder you refused to read what is so simple. Sin is simply the absence of holiness.
God did not create sin.

According to your logic, Allah must have created sin and then punishes you for doing something he created. Is that what yu are saying? Don't you find yourself stuck already my fren? Are you sure you wanna adopt islamic doctrine of sin and punishment?

If not God who create the concept of sin, then who ?

"According to your logic, Allah must have created sin and then punishes you for doing something he created"...CORRECT debmey, we get punished only if we commit the sinful act otherwise we are not subjected to punishment. This is beacuse we have the choice either to commit or not to commit the sinful act. Is that clear to you ?

In the first place debmey, do you think God know or not know about the existence of sin concept ? If he know without creating it, does it mean that He borrow the concept from another being that created it ?

greekgod

Originally posted by Debmey at 3-2-2005 06:11 AM:
Sin is not fropm God, thats why we need to repent when we commit sin.

Are yu saying that sin is from Allah?

i thought thing should be made simple.

yes.. allah created sin, allah created goodness.. allah created me, allah created you.. allah created everybody...

nothing can bound him from creating anything...

if god cant create sin, then something might has the same power as god to make something that god himself cannot create.

we repent to god, because he created sin, then only him can abolish our sin.

you owe A, then you dont pay anyone other than A, right?

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by Oreng at 3-2-2005 04:09 PM:
We commit a sin because at that time of committing (doing) we are weak, or under the great influence of satan, or ... many other reasons.

Just like 'eating'.. it is a concept... you commit (do)  ...

Yes, but from where does sins comes from?

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by greekgod at 3-2-2005 04:27 PM:


i thought thing should be made simple.

yes.. allah created sin, allah created goodness.. allah created me, allah created you.. allah created everybody...

nothing can bound him from creati ...

I have to disagree here,
God create goodness, we "create" sins.
God created a perfect moral standard and it was his creation, by going against that standard, that created sins.
But it doesn't mean that God don't know the existence of sins.
Infact God allowed sins to enter the world, but sins does not come from Him.

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-2-3 04:48 PM:


I have to disagree here,
God create goodness, we "create" sins.
God created a perfect moral standard and it was his creation, by going against that standard, that created sins.
But ...

You're right DPN, that is also the Muslim understanding of sin. In Christianity however, there is such a thing called "original sin". In Islam there is no such thing. Everybody is born sinless. So, how can you, with a clear conscience, say that we human beings "create" sin when you are already born with "original sin" (according to your belief)?  

There is no such thing as "God creating sin". Everything that God creates is good, everything God creates is out of love. The one who sins is us humans who don't love God. If one loves God, one will obey His command. If one loves God, one will always be remembering Him (zikrullah), by praying, by suppicating, by communicating (salat) with Him.

When One is not "with God" one sins. In Islam even if one does good things everyday, not hurting anyone, not going against any law, doing everything with responsibility, one is still sinning because one is not "with God". How to be with God? By remembering Him with all one's love (which also belong to God and given by God) to God.

Only when one is not with God, one will do all the things that Godless people do. That is what is meant by sin.

"Original sin" is absent in our vocabulary. Every new born baby is born clean in soul, pure.

THE GREATEST sin of all is believing oneself to be "with God" when it is not God. Jesus is not God.



[ Last edited by KENNKID on 3-2-2005 at 05:12 PM ]