Stupid way of showing love...

greekgod

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 3-2-2005 10:48 AM:


I have to disagree here,
God create goodness, we "create" sins.
God created a perfect moral standard and it was his creation, by going against that standard, that created sins.
But ...

another question arises:

who did created "sin"?

sakinahmawaddah

maybe we should clarify first the word 'create sin' and 'commit sin', so that we dont get lost for this valuable discussion.

sakinahmawaddah

Just use a very simple logic (moreover religion should be easy to understand so it will 慾ust

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by sakinahmawaddah at 3-2-2005 06:16 PM:
maybe we should clarify first the word 'create sin' and 'commit sin', so that we dont get lost for this valuable discussion.

Agreed, so how does God create sins, according to your understandings?
We already know what commiting sins means, simply put, violating God's laws and wills.

KENNKID,
"Original sins" and "sins" are not the same, in the sense that one is the "inherit" sins or curse and the later comimiting sins itself. However based on your post, you do agree that God is not the author of sins?

[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 3-2-2005 at 08:31 PM ]

sakinahmawaddah

Sin is a concept. Conceptwise, it is similar to 'good' or 'bad', 'high' or 'low' etc. Of course, God created these concepts. If it is not God who created these concepts then it must be some other powerful entity. God give man brain, heart and soul to identify these concepts. It seems, in your mind, the 'sin' concept comes from something else, not god creation. God creation not necessarily physical, that is how God is Great, not god who succumb to man's wishes like christianity believe.

Quoting what have been submitted by Oreng ealier.

DivinePonytail

But that doesn't quite answer the question how God create sins. True that God created the right or wrong concept. Its all stated in the bible/quran. We with given knowledge and wisdom should understand these concept and supposedly follow these guidelines. But if we choose to break the guidelines how it makes God creator of sins?

Unless you're saying the concept of good or bad = sins

Oreng

God create sin means God create the concept of sin. It does not mean God commit or do sin. Never confuse it please, especially Kennkid (I am disappointed)..

If anyone here thinks that God create only 'good things', then think about other bad thing such as 'unbelievers'. This is also a concept, defined for those that dont believe in the law of God (whatever faith you are). If God only create good concept, the vocab 'unbelievers' would not exist. All scriptures I think would mention this word (unbelievers).

So, still think that God create only 'good things' ? God create good concept and bad concept for us to choose using our brain, heart and soul.

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 2005-2-3 08:22 PM:


Agreed, so how does God create sins, according to your understandings?
We already know what commiting sins means, simply put, violating God's laws and wills.

KENNKID,
"Original sins& ...

There is no such thing as inherited sin. Only to you people. It is a very primitive, unscientific, unGodly phenomena. That wasn't taught by Jesus. You inherited it from paul. That phenomena itself is a sin. So, true indeed, you have ' inherited' paul's sin.;)  You are perpetuating his sin.  

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 4-2-2005 at 05:46 PM ]

Originally posted by Oreng at 2005-2-4 08:18 AM:
God create sin means God create the concept of sin. It does not mean God commit or do sin. Never confuse it please, especially Kennkid (I am disappointed)..

If anyone here thinks that God ...

Sin is not just a concept. And I never said or meant that God commits or do sins (na'uzubillah, God forbid).

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=concept

If sin is a mere concept than it follows that heaven and hell are also just concepts. BUT, Heaven and hell is real. Yes, of course it is not God who commits or do sin. It is we, His creatures (humans) who commit sins - sinning to whom? To Him - To God Almighty.

Yes, God created everything good and everything clean and pure. The unbelievers become unbelievers out of the training & inculcation given by their parents (remember the hadith that a baby is like a white piece of cloth, it is the parents who 'color' them & make them Yahudi, nasrani etc).... and than later on in life, based on their own judgement and decisions that they make and choose for themselves.

The takliful syara' (the shouldering  of responsibility viz-a-viz the law of God) comes into effect when one reaches akil baligh where one's sins are taken into account and one will bear whatever that one chooses on the numerous momentary split second decisions that one make (with the God given free will to choose) in one's daily life. If one's soul departs from one's  body (one dies) before akil baligh  one goes straight to heaven, no matter  what religion one  belongs to.

The one who chooses to sin is us, the human being. God does not want us to sin because He wants us to remain with Him, pure and clean. If God 'Creates' unbelievers, God is very cruel. But is that God's nature? Is God one-sided? Is He Unfair? No. Yes, God knows everything , nothing  escapes His knowledge (Ilmullah), not even the smallest atom, but He also has given us the free will to choose - heaven or hell, to be with Him or to be away from Him. He is always with us. It is we who runs away from Him.

This topic has something to do with qada and qadar.

What is your understanding of 'qada' & 'qadar'?   

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 4-2-2005 at 06:46 PM ]

Oreng

Originally posted by KENNKID at 2005-2-4 06:08 PM:
If sin is a mere concept than it follows that heaven and hell are also just concepts. BUT, Heaven and hell is real. Yes, of course it is not God who commits or do sin. It is we, His creatures (humans) who commit sins - sinning to whom? To Him - To God Almighty.

Sin is a concept but it does not follow that heaven and hell also just a concept. Heaven and hell is real, just like this world. But sin is only a description for some act. God can set a rule whether stealing is a sin or not, though in this case God has ruled that stealing is a sin. Similarly, marriage between brother and sister at one time is a sin but it no longer a sin now. God determine the rule. So, in this issue, it more suitable to say that it is God who determine whether some act is a sin or not. may be the word I use oe creation confuse you, so better I say that creation of sin means determination by God because only God can determione whether an act by man is a sin or not.

That is why I say to christians, if God determine a certain act by man is a sin, why the necessary God died to remove it. It seems that for christians, it it not God that set the rule whether a cetain act is sinful.

Also, it appears that for christians, they expect sin is like a physical thing, something that exist in the body of man, so God have to die to remove the thing, while in fact sin is not a physical thing.

If we understand that it is God who set (previously I use 'create') an act as sinful or not, then it is not necessary for god to die for sin removal. It is a ridiculous idea.

Oreng

Another matter I would like to point to Kennkid is that we sometimes loosely say 'sinful to God'. This is not a correct sentence. This is christianic phrase, not Islamic. Because, in Islam, God does not take good or bad for Himself for whatever man do. God does not make profit or lost for what man do. God just set rules for man to follow, so man can choose. When man do sinful thing, the sin does not go to God. God is only overseeing man, His creation, whether man follow His guidelines.

Oreng

The reason why debmey say that in christians that God is very personal is because in christians god does not determine whether an act is a sin or not. For them, sinful or not is determined by another being, so for them god is very sad when man commit sinful act. So to prove that god is involved personally with man's affairs, god died for man's sin.

sakinahmawaddah

how actually the Christians inherited sins from Adam and Eve?
Is it physically or spritually?

Oreng

For Kennkid, I never say that God create 'unbelievers'. The mention of the word 'unbelievers' in my postings above is just to say that 'unbelievers' is not a good thing. It just a concept. But who set this rule that 'unbelievers' is not good. God, right ? (of course it is man themselve that make themselve follow the rule or not). First God set (create) the rule that 'unbelievers' or 'sin' is such and such. Do you think that by setting this rule, God is considered unjust ? This question is for Kennkid and christians here.

DivinePonytail

Originally posted by sakinahmawaddah at 5-2-2005 09:29 AM:
how actually the Christians inherited sins from Adam and Eve?
Is it physically or spritually?

Original sin is known in two senses which are the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary "fallen nature and moral corruption" that is passed down from Adam to his descendents, which is us.  It is called "original" in that Adam, the first man, is the one who sinned and thus causing sin to enter the world.  Even though Eve is the one who sinned first, because Adam is the Federal Head (representative of mankind), his fall included or represented all of humanity.

As for your second question, original sin is not physical, but its a moral and spiritual corruption.

DivinePonytail

Oreng i think you misunderstood the meaning of rules and sins.

True that God create rules or guidelines, what is right or wrong or good or bad etc.

But when we break those rules, or when we do what God forbid us to do, sin is "created" thus making sin comes from us.

Am i making sense here...

Tell me what you think.;)

[ Last edited by DivinePonytail on 5-2-2005 at 11:12 AM ]

greekgod

Like to add something...

after visiting this site:

http://www.geocities.com/faith_of_ibrahim/salvation.html

ORIGINAL SIN OR ORIGINAL FORGIVENESS: WILL BABIES GO TO HELL?


please read from the site, and give some comment

Debmey

Thanks for those verses. Yes indeed salvation is by faith, not by works. If salvation is by works, you won't need God anymore. That is the logical fallacy that Islam carries and Muslims cannot answer to.

Notice that the author titled his article as  SALVATION ACCORDING TO THE QURAN AND THE TORAH. Is he unaware that he was quoting verses not from the Torah?

Also, this muslim polemics was quoting verses out of context in a deliberate manner in order to deceive muslims what salvation and faith is all about.
I suggest James 2 and you will clearly see the deception.

Will babies go to hell? Nope. According to the word, only those who have sinned will go to hell.

BTW, are there are term such as 'original sin' written in any of the verses shown or any verse in the Bible?

cheers

[ Last edited by Debmey on 5-2-2005 at 10:15 PM ]

sakinahmawaddah

Originally posted by Debmey at 5-2-2005 10:14 PM:
Thanks for those verses. Yes indeed slavation is by faith, not bey works. If it is by works, you won't need God anymore.

Notice that the author titled his article as  SALVATION ACCORDIN ...

if the baby is not baptist, will the baby go to heaven.

sakinahmawaddah

Originally posted by DivinePonytail at 5-2-2005 11:00 AM:


Original sin is known in two senses which are the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary "fallen nature and moral corruption" that is passed down from Adam t ...

how human inherited this sin spritually?
As supposed Jesus had been crucified, that mean all sins had become pure, why human still inherit the sin?