I caught Menjj and a_a lie to defend sura5:51

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 15-5-2006 10:36 PM



thanks for ur lengthy explanation but my question remain unanswered. Why both verses sound different? one verses says do not make friend with Jews and Christians another says "we send th ...So, u agreed that in Koran too have many version but different sayings???  

of course i dont agree with you. in fact i also dont agree that you translate it as friends and allies. if you read the chapter it clearly refers to leaders as only leaders can not implement islamic law if they become leaders of an islamic nation.

Truth.8

Originally posted by bob at 15-5-2006 11:27 PM

of course i dont agree with you. in fact i also dont agree that you translate it as friends and allies. if you read the chapter it clearly refers to leaders as only leaders can not implement isla ...

what u do not agreed? did not ur koran endorsed not to make friends with jews? another koran says different things or u denying such verses is void and not applicable ? u seems to be confused and not able to understand the most hatred /racist verses.pls bear in mind the verses taken frm muslims link not anti muslims link. i can give more of tha islamic link, if still  do not agreed with me.

So, pls read what it stated below u tell me what does it mean?

5:51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.



can u compare the differences and tell us why those words which belonged to same verses 5:51 but it sound different ? The whole passage is different, what u call it? Corrupt? Different version of sayings? Different version of Koran ???


If menjj verses different frm what i paste than the whole book which menjj has must totally different sayings or different version.

[ Last edited by  Truth.8 at 15-5-2006 11:36 PM ]

wira_melayu

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 15-5-2006 04:53 PM
They claimed there is no  such hatred verses, yet I have proof sura 5:51 is most hatred verses in their so called holy book.

5:51 O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another [72] and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide such evildoers.

I thought i have explain it to you long ago but one of the things you don't understand is that all those quotes you give they were refer to the times of war. A muslim isn't supposed to just kill a Jew or Christian he sees walking down the street.Like a said, and this is a final point, agree or not, that if you read the ENTIRE Qu'ran, you see the entire collage, not one picture. With all the verses saying good things about the Jews/Christians.

Let me explain this in more detail. My Answer has two sections. The first is a brief explanation of Quranic verses that are often mistaken as instructions to persecute Non-Muslims. The second section features verses from the Quran and Hadith that vehemently insist on religious tolerance and the idea of "no compulsion in religion." God willing, Non-Muslims as well as our Muslim brothers and sisters who resort to violence, will take these verses into consideration.
Anti-Islamic people often use the following verses to justify the stereotype that Islam is a religion of violence and intolerance, which was spread by the sword.

Sura 8.12 "Remember thy lord has inspired the angels with the message. Give firmness to the believers and instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite the fingertips of them."
Sura 9.5 "When the sacred months have passed, kill the idolaters whereever you find them."
Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."

Sura 8 is about a BATTLE - the Battle of Badr - not just some daily affair. A battles take two side to occur. Are you under the impression that while these 'horrid' Muslims were fighting, the enemies were simply standing there like good little peaceful men?
Sura 47 was revealed during the first year of Hijrah when the Muslims were under *threat of extinction* by invasion from Makkah.

Sura 9 is interesting. Non-Muslims almost invariably quote verse 5 but leave out verse 4 and 6. Why? Because verse 4 says, "But the treatires are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have you subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God Loves the righteous."

And verse 6 says, "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."

Sura5.51 explains why they shouldn't take them as friends.They are more likely to combine together against rather than helping us. This happened more than once in the lifetime of the Prophet and is often repeated again and again in the after ages, whenever Muslims became weak as a community and fought amongst themselves just like the one in Madina.

So basically what has been done above is:

1. The background to each sura was shown. One cannot take a verse revealed for a battle and insist it is if for the daily affairs of Muslims.

2. It was shown how Non-muslims who wish to attack Islam, conveniently leave out verses before and after their quoted verse. Above, I have shown only one of the many examples.

This long list of verses from the Holy Quran and the Traditions of Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) show that Islam at it's core and at its source is a religion of peace. Terrorists who persecute innocent people because of their faith are not welcome - their use of Islam as a scapegoat, does not make Islam what they portray it to be.
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).
6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.
60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
5:82 "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers will you find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."

It's a miracle of verse 5:82, when we see that a majority of the present day overwhelming converts to Islam are from the community of the followers of Jesus (Peace be upon him).

Laxamana.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 15-5-2006 10:42 PM



hve u read my topic frm begining to end.

happy reading the most hatred/or racist verses of the so called holy book.

I have explained 5.51 thoroughly in another topic. If you wish to distill truth from falsehood, behave only like someone who wishes to increase his knowledge and to win greater recompense from God. Do not behave like someone who is content with what he has, who is looking for some fault to criticize or a curious detail to hawk around. This would be the behavior of vile men who never succeed in their studies of religion or search for the True path, wherever it may be.

If you come towards God with good intentions, you will always obtain the best results. Otherwise, stay at home and off the net, that would be less tiring for your body, more worthy of your moral conduct and more salutary for your religious life.

Before we understand the verse under discussion it is important to understand the context of this Surah and the situation under which this verse was revealed.

In the last stages of prophetic mission in Medinah, Muslims had emerged as a dominant power and had set up a society of their own. At the same time, the polytheists of Makkah as well as Jews and Christians had also established setups and in case of an armed conflict, it seemed that any of them could have emerged as victorious. In such an environment the hypocrites amongst Muslims maintained ties with Jews and Christians and supported them in secret. Their support was in order to safeguard their interests with whoever the victorious party would be. In addition, the hypocrites obviously had not accepted Islam from within their hearts and their conversion to Islam had not affected their ties with Muslims' opponents.

It is in this context that Quran revealed the following verses specifically admonishing these hypocrites amongst Muslims:

"O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Al-Maidah 5:51-52)
The explanation above should depict the correct meaning of the verses under discussion.

In addition to the general context, it should also be noted that Quran has used the words 'the Jews' and 'the Christians' making it very clear that it is a specific group of Jews and Christians and this verse is not a general prescription. The attitude of these people has been explained further in the following verses for instance:

"O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand." (Al-Maidah 5:57-58)As it can be clearly seen, the Jews and Christians mentioned above are those 'who take your religion for a mockery and a joke.'

In view of the above explanation, I believe these verses should not be taken to be a general directive of our relationship with Jews and Christians. Instead our relationship with the people of other faiths should only be avoided when it becomes harmful for Muslims, and otherwise we should feel free to enjoy a comfortable relationship with our Jew and Christian brothers and sisters.

I hope this answers your concern T.8 and Debmey. Anyway you guys laughed at Malay Muslims.. does that verse suits both of you as well? Remember how you laughed at the story of :lebai: ? Remember all the curses by Debmey on Malay Muslims since he came in under the nick of SFE in 1998?

[ Last edited by  Laxamana. at 16-5-2006 08:23 AM ]

Truth.8

That do not explain why menj verses 5:51 sound different frm most Koran verses which mentioned do not make friend with jews and Christians.

The verses posted by menj it highlight more to gospel and not those hatred verses.

As usual muslims stuck again !!!!!


Yet muslims like to says that  the Bible has different version. FYI, the bible has many version but the meaning is same. In sura 5:51 it totally different meaning.

Can we says that maybe menj owes a true sura 5:51  and the rest or the modern Koran verses is corrupt and done by man made project?

[ Last edited by  Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 04:31 PM ]

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by Laxamana. at 16-5-2006 08:17 AM



I have explained 5.51 thoroughly in another topic. If you wish to distill truth from falsehood, behave only like someone who wishes to increase his knowledge and to win greater recompense fro ...

Good posting u have there. But as usual truth8 will ignore good posting , truth8 prefer bull****.

Truth.8

Originally posted by anti_aktivis at 16-5-2006 04:30 PM


Good posting u have there. But as usual truth8 will ignore good posting , truth8 prefer bull****.

nothing is so good when ur so called holy book become unholy to put hatred seed to hate jews.

and menj verses promote love and gospel which come to conclusion

The Koran is totally corrupt or man made project

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 04:23 PM
That do not explain why menj verses 5:51 sound different frm most Koran verses which mentioned do not make friend with jews and Christians.

The verses posted by menj it highlight more to gospel  ...

Show us the bible in its original language (if there is any) ... the problem with the bible is that only translations are available.. do you agree with  that?

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 16-5-2006 04:34 PM


Show us the bible in its original language (if there is any) ... the problem with the bible is that only translations are available.. do you agree with  that?  

and show us the original koran???

at least we do not have different meaning in Bible.

in koran YES totally different until menj exposed the lying pen of lslam.

so, i must Thanks menjj for giving the truth.

TQ menj

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 04:38 PM



and show us the original koran???

at least we do not have different meaning in Bible.

in koran YES totally different until menj exposed the lying pen of lslam.

so, i must Thanks men ...

The original Qur'an is the one in the Arabic language... untouched ..same as the one recited by the holy prophet when he received the revelation..

Where is the original bible?... In the first place, it is not even a revelation.. only the injil was..and its gone.. without a trace

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 16-5-2006 04:41 PM


The original Qur'an is the one in the Arabic language... untouched ..same as the one recited by the holy prophet when he received the revelation..

Where is the original bible?... In the fir ...

ur quran is untouched??? than why different meaning frm Menj.
i will repost it again if u think is untouched or touched to suit to man made project.


5:51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.



can u compare the differences and tell us why those words which belonged to same verses 5:51 but it sound different ? The whole passage is different, what u call it? Corrupt? Different version of sayings? Different version of Koran ???


If menjj verses different frm what i paste than the whole book which menjj has must totally different sayings or different version.

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 04:47 PM



ur quran is untouched??? than why different meaning frm Menj.
i will repost it again if u think is untouched or touched to suit to man made project.


5:51. O ye who believe! take not the ...

Learn Arabic first... study the Qur'an in depth... when the verse was revealed... the situation at the time of revelation... and how the verses concerned are to be interpreted... stop barking out of ignorance..don't treat it like a bible...which you can read even in the toilet...

Have you heard people reciting the Qur'an?  So calm..so serene, so patient.. no anger or bad intention comes from such beautiful words...all are meant in all goodness.. ...  

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 16-5-2006 04:53 PM


Learn Arabic first... study the Qur'an in depth... when the verse was revealed... the situation at the time of revelation... and how the verses concerned are to be interpreted... stop barking o ...

Have u seen how Hindus reading Hindu holy book with sound good like signing birds?

It does  not matter how Muslims sound, any one can sound like that BUT

It that true source frm true God? Never

.....and do not divert my topic on sura 5:51

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 04:57 PM



Have u seen how Hindus reading Hindu holy book with sound good like signing birds?

It does  not matter how Muslims sound, any one can sound like that BUT

It that true source frm true Go ...

I'm not talking about Hindu books. I'm talking about the Qur'an.. You mean you've been talking about hindu books all along this thread?

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 16-5-2006 04:59 PM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 16-5-2006 04:58 PM


I'm not talking about Hindu books. I'm talking about the Qur'an.. You mean you've been talking about hindu books all along this thread?  

i m talking abt  ur crap view that ur koran sound good while reading. are judging that the koran sound good while reading makes u come to islam? if that the case, u been fool.

have u listen hindustani songs? it too  have sweet melody yet peoples do not understand.


the hindu book ? i says it sound good when someone read and same goes with koran but are u going depend how it sound ? frankly u fool with islam and too bad u such gone case even we show u evidence that most koran verses do not sound comes frm True God.

How can god inject hatred if ur god is holy? surely the god of urs is not holy but that cunning spirit in cave of hira.

pity u

[ Last edited by  Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 10:01 PM ]

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 05:12 PM


i m talking ur crap view that ur koran sound good. are u going to judge just becaue uf good sound good and u trap with this so called peace religion?

the hindu book ? i says it sound good wh ...

The Qur'an is meant to and supposed to be read that way. It is the word of God, not the word of liars like paul. You fail to understand the beauty and truth of the Qur'an because you do not measure up to the requirement..

Understand?

Now, read this:


:pray: http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/etiquette.html

[ Last edited by  KENNKID at 16-5-2006 05:25 PM ]

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 05:12 PM


i m talking ur crap view that ur koran sound good. are u going to judge just becaue uf good sound good and u trap with this so called peace religion?

the hindu book ? i says it sound good wh ...

My explaination is simple u also agree "do not friend" does not meaning hatred.

And if u want to talk about barbaric and hatred , do u want me to paste bible verse which specificly aks christian to kill all the city inhabitant (including infant) just because they commit idolatary.

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 16-5-2006 05:23 PM
The Qur'an is meant to and supposed to be read that way. It is the word of God, not the word of liars like paul. You fail to understand the beauty and truth of the Qur'an because you do not measure up to the requirement..

Understand?

Now, read this:
a ...

word of god? who god?? the god made hatred verses yet u muslims view it holy book?

and sura 5:51 one says hate hate hate and one says gospel ???

beauty only in surface but in reality its  NOT

Truth.8

Can we says apple is orange, of course no. Yet,  muslims comparing banana and orange.

like the sura 5:51 says hate jews and christians but another sura 5:51 which posted by menj says different things


indeed muslims stuck and confused!!!!;)

this how muslims comparing. repost again here:



5:51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.



can u compare the differences and tell us why those words which belonged to same verses 5:51 but it sound different ? The whole passage is different, what u call it? Corrupt? Different version of sayings? Different version of Koran ???


If menjj verses different frm what i paste than the whole book which menjj has must totally different sayings or different version.

[ Last edited by  Truth.8 at 16-5-2006 06:33 PM ]

Laxamana.

You asked about your text of 5.51 and I have explained 5.5.1 on the Jews and Christians, any comments on that T.8 ? Why now, after that you resort to compare 5.51 and the one posted by Menj? That's totally deviated from your original Q.