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Author: RainbowSix

What is knowledge?

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Post time 4-5-2006 01:34 PM | Show all posts
I said:
Why are Truths imperfect..? Is it because they are always changing.....in the state of Flux? Who or what is controlling it?

I shall sign off here for now to ponder on this.


I recall thamrong mentioned about the imperfect truth.  If by that he means that truth is always changing, no........I think Truth does not change. You see, what has happened,  has happened and that is the Truth. You can never change that. Imagine if ultimate Truth is also changiing, then man would never ever comprehand let alone reach it. :stp:

I said:
For me, I haven't even started to ponder what "reality" means.


I read somewhere that "ultimate reality" is "truth".............Real things are things that exist....some say it includes the essence (what it is) and some say it doesn't as essence exist in the mind. I think for a thing to exist it has to have the essence. Essence alone cannot prove the thing exists....heheh ..  as it exist only in the mind! For example , if we describe the sphinx is an animal that has a human head and the body of a lion(the essence)......but does it exist? So it cannot be real.

Aaaah.........I have said too much!

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 4-5-2006 10:31 PM ]

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Post time 5-5-2006 12:13 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by hamizao at 2-5-2006 05:53 PM
At this stage, I am not really concerned about engenreing (gee, I hope there is such a word) myself least it might limit my thoughts. However, I would say that much of what little thoughts I have on the subject seem to be  in tandem with it. Some of it's  principles are still beyond me  though.

TRUE!
It's no fun to stick to one concept all time :D

As for me, I yet find a philosopher/ philosophical thoery that I can completely agree or disagree with - well I do not study all of them of course.. When I read arguments from Friederich Nietzsche, I thought at first I completely disgree with his position, but after reading it thoroughly, I find that he makes some good points in his arguments. And I really like them too.

Excuse me for getting off-topic for a while. Now back to the topic.

Please let me know if I sound like a little agrressive to you HEHE. I hope I am not. I like this topic and look forward to hear more from you. Coz seem like you give your heart to this topic as well. I hope I am right by saying this. If I am not, correct me.  From your given answer, I assume that you are saying that you cannot completely agree with logical positism? Is that true? If it's tue, then it seems to me that you also believe in somehitng that is left unverfiable, far from proven to be true. Is that what you are saying or is it just me think like that?

Originally posted by hamizao at 4-5-2006 01:34 PM
Aaaah.........I have said too much!

No No .You did well on this topic. No ned to hold back. On the contrary to you, I am just questiong other people all time. So, you are absolutely ok.

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Post time 5-5-2006 11:14 PM | Show all posts
By ai****eru:

Please let me know if I sound like a little agrressive to you HEHE. I hope I am not. I like this topic and look forward to hear more from you. Coz seem like you give your heart to this topic as well. I hope I am right by saying this. If I am not, correct me.  


Not at all, it's alright. Am glad in a way to note there is sombody out there  willing to read my blabbering ..heheheh.

From your given answer, I assume that you are saying that you cannot completely agree with logical positism? Is that true? If it's tue, then it seems to me that you also believe in somehitng that is left unverfiable, far from proven to be true. Is that what you are saying or is it just me think like that?


Bull's eye buddy. That's my ultimate Truth.

So far man are mostly verifying things through  the five senses  and the brain they are linked to within the central nervous systom.. That is why man are so limited. Do note that we should not rule out the existence of all others just because we have not found a way to justify them yet.  I think there has to be another way to approach the ultimate Truth...otherwise the whole purpose of  mankind would be futile. That is still my search.

Some  suggest replacing it  with "faith" .................

Oh well............who knows what tomorrow's experience would bring! Hehehe....I may have to pitch my goal posts elsewhere!:bgrin::bgrin:

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 6-5-2006 10:49 AM ]

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Post time 5-5-2006 11:51 PM | Show all posts
To keep the pot boiling I am getting back to basic. I was lost in the maze for the last couple of days.

This topic can be aptly called the theory of knowledge or epistemology.   In other word it is called 'treatment of the subject of knowledge'. In the history of western philosophy  one of the earliest proponents of the 'theory of knowledge' was Plato with his concept of 'idea' or 'form'.
Accounts of knowledge usually do not take the form of a theory in the manner like the studies of gravitation or production of baby when parents slept in the same bed. The issue to be addressed is what knowledge is, weather we have the knowledge, are we human, animal or my keyboard are capable of having knowledge, the conditions under which we have any knowledge, what is the scope of knowledge etc. etc.

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 5-5-2006 11:54 PM ]

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Post time 8-5-2006 02:10 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by hamizao at 5-5-2006 11:14 PM
By ai****eru:
Not at all, it's alright. Am glad in a way to note there is sombody out there  willing to read my blabbering ..heheheh.
Bull's eye buddy. That's my ultimate Truth.
...

So you believe in something that is called ultimate truth? and not everybody in this world are capable of accepting/accessing this so called ultimate truth aka "you-definition-of-knowledge" (refer to page 1) because our senses are limited? and that (limitation) also explains why we keep changing our "generally-accepted-idea-of-knowledge" (what we know about something) since our sense are not perfect?

Is that what are you saying?

When someone said: 搊nly god knows.

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Post time 8-5-2006 11:23 PM | Show all posts
The  Knowledge of the  existence of God
Ultimate truth or knowledge transcends everything else, including human knowledge. How about God? Through reasoning, can the existence of God be proven?

Rene  Descartes (Cogito Ergo Sum), protagonist of the modern philosophy, broke away from the theological thinking of the Scholastic school and he offered a very elegant proof of the existence of God using rationalist methodology.

He found within himself that idea of God, that is, an entity which is infinite completely perfect, omnipotent, omniscience, and all-knowing. Next question is this cannot emanate from nothingness, nor can it originate within himself. He is finite, imperfect, weak and full of doubt and ignorance, and if the idea originated within him, the effect would be superior to the cause. This is impossible. Consequently, the idea of God must have been placed within him by some superior and higher entity which attain the perfection of that idea, that is, by God himself.:hmm::hmm:

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 8-5-2006 11:25 PM ]

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Post time 8-5-2006 11:57 PM | Show all posts
To spice  up Hamizao's Justified true Believe I wish to add some elaboration. This is something I cooked up from one of the site.
The Tripartite Theory of Knowledge
There is a tradition that goes back as far as Plato that says that three conditions must be satisfied in order for one to possess knowledge. This account, known as the tripartite theory of knowledge, analyses knowledge as justified true belief. If you believe something, with justification, and it is true, the tripartite theory says, then you know it; otherwise, you do not.

Belief
The first condition for knowledge, according to the tripartite theory, is belief. Unless one believes a thing, one cannot know it. Even if something is true, and one has excellent reasons for believing that it is true, one cannot know it without believing it. Knowledge, quite clearly, requires belief.

Truth
The second condition for knowledge, according to the tripartite theory, is truth. If one knows a thing then it must be true. No matter how well justified or sincere a belief, if it is not true that it cannot constitute knowledge. If a long-held belief is discovered to be false, then one must concede that what was thought to be known was in fact not known. What is false cannot be known; knowledge must be knowledge of the truth.

Justification
The third condition for knowledge is justification. In order to know a thing, it is not enough to merely believe it; one must also have a good reason for doing so. Lucky guesses cannot constitute knowledge; we can only know what we have good reason to believe.

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 9-5-2006 12:23 AM ]
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Post time 9-5-2006 12:22 AM | Show all posts
I recall thamrong mentioned about the imperfect truth.


Bertrand Russell wrote something about imperfect truth, which I may recall, which is related to sense perception, flux and substance. Plato highlighted that what we perceive is imperfect image or copies of the reality. I am assuming metaphysical truth is reality and you are free to disagree with me. Taking a horse as an example there can never be two horses which are alike (color, shape and sub species) but the idea of a horse as an animal with four legs is immutable. Taking another example, a triangle can be draw in several shapes, however, all shall meet the criteria of sum of all angle is equal to 2 rights angles.:hmm::hmm:

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Post time 9-5-2006 12:36 AM | Show all posts
Thumb sup to you for bringing the thoery up, Thamrong!

I hear the word metaphysic often yet I could not grasp its meaning quite thoroughly. Anybody here willing to explain it to me a little bit?
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Post time 9-5-2006 12:46 AM | Show all posts
When I read arguments from Friederich Nietzsche, I thought at first I completely disgree with his position, but after reading it thoroughly, I find that he makes some good points in his arguments. And I really like them too.


As a layman with little brain I attempted to read Nietzsches' works. It does not take very long because I have to return it to the bookshelf before I go crazy.
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Post time 9-5-2006 01:21 AM | Show all posts
I hear the word metaphysic often yet I could not grasp its meaning quite thoroughly. Anybody here willing to explain it to me a little bit?


This is another word which drive me nut

There are several definitions and one I am most comfortable is by Robert C, Solomon.

Metaphysics. Most simply, the study of the most basic (or "first') principles. Traditionally, the study of the ultimate reality, or "Being as such" (Ujud maka  itu). Popularly, any kind of very abstract or obscure thinking. Most philosophers to day would define metaphysics as the study of the most general concepts of science and human life, for example, ?eality,?existence,?freedom,?God,?soul,?action,?mind.? In general we can divide metaphysics into ontology (theory of being-theori ada), cosmology, and concerning God and immortality of human soul.

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Post time 9-5-2006 01:25 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by thamrong at 9-5-2006 12:46 AM


As a layman with little brain I attempted to read Nietzsches' works. It does not take very long because I have to return it to the bookshelf before I go crazy.http://img250.imageshack.us/img250 ...

I was also very tempted to stop but patiently kept reading. The turning point in his writing that trigger my interest is when he started blaming the Jews and Christianity (in other words, religion) for bringing down human "true" strength and looking highly on the "Aryan" (blonde beast) as the best example of human being. Well does the fact that he is a German tell us anything here?

But of course I do not read all his works.
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Post time 9-5-2006 01:25 AM | Show all posts
As a layman with little brain I attempted to read Nietzsches' works. It does not take very long because I have to return it to the bookshelf before I go crazy.


Heheheh.....I sumise that the guy must have lived his life to the fullest and probably died of it too! You did well to let him be least he dragged you down with him .......insane.   :gila:  Poor soul .....no wonder he  thought that  life was nothing more than a meaningless business of suffering and striving. Oh, if only he had seen the wisdom of it all!
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Post time 9-5-2006 01:36 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by hamizao at 9-5-2006 01:25 AM


Heheheh.....I sumise that the guy must have lived his life to the fullest and probably died of it too! You did well to let him be least he dragged you down with him .......insane.   :gila:  Poo ...

I remembered when my class first introduced to him by my profesor, almost everbody in my ethics class including myself despised his idea of good and bad until my professor pointed out what he actually thinks. If you look at his writing positively, you will find some good points. Of course I do not buy all his arguments but there are few good things that I've learned from him.
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Post time 9-5-2006 01:37 AM | Show all posts
hamizao's wrote:
Heheheh.....I sumise that the guy must have lived his life to the fullest and probably died of it too! You did well to let him be least he dragged you down with him .......insane.     Poor soul .....no wonder he  thought that  life was nothing more than a meaningless business of suffering and striving. Oh, if only he had seen the wisdom of it all!





He said that " God Is Dead" so let's drink to it.

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 9-5-2006 01:39 AM ]
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Post time 9-5-2006 02:03 AM | Show all posts


The concept of God is dead is the most compelling of all Nietzsche's contribution to philosophy.By the concept of the death of god does not mean that God, who is defined as an eternal  being, can nevertheless die; this is illogical. It really means the death of our belief in God.

He is one of the forerunners of the existentialism philosophy before Jean-Paul Sarte.

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 10-5-2006 10:48 AM ]

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Post time 9-5-2006 11:58 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by thamrong at 8-5-2006 11:57 PM
To spice  up Hamizao's Justified true Believe I wish to add some elaboration. This is something I cooked up from one of the site.

anybody has any objection/criticism to this theory?

[ Last edited by  aishiteru at 10-5-2006 12:36 AM ]
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Post time 10-5-2006 09:50 AM | Show all posts
hamizao wrote:
It is said  that maths is not a "reality" but rather a description of reality which the human can only approximate . Some of you may have your own take on this. I would be interested to hear it. For me, I haven't even started to ponder what "reality" means.


A very interesting comment.

I take that you are assuming 'reality' as something we can be perceived with our senses, a 'substance',  worldly and physical. This mode of thinking may compel you to the limitation and the pitfall suffered by the scholastic thinkers. The ceiling of philosophical study was brought to such a low level that the thinking mind cannot go beyond theological arguments.

I am suggesting that you should break yourself from that mental bondage and go beyond that. Take 'reality' as an 'idea' which is all perfect, beautiful, permanent and immutable then life will be more interesting. Take for an example; parallel lines only meet at infinity which is valid in physical world. However, infinity can never be realized because it is only an 'idea'. Another example, I remember reading Sir Mohd Iqbal about the notion of 'Hell and heaven'  which he suggested that it should not be treated as a locality instead thinks it as a 'concept'.:hmm::hmm:

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 10-5-2006 09:53 AM ]

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Post time 10-5-2006 10:26 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by thamrong at 9-5-2006 01:21 AM
Metaphysics. Most simply, the study of the most basic (or "first') principles. Traditionally, the study of the ultimate reality, or "Being as such" (Ujud maka  itu). Popularly, any kind of very abstract or obscure thinking. Most philosophers to day would define metaphysics as the study of the most general concepts of science and human life, for example, ?eality,?existence,?freedom,?God,?soul,?action,?mind.? In general we can divide metaphysics into ontology (theory of being-theori ada), cosmology, and concerning God and immortality of human soul.


Metaphysics.....I read somewhere that the term is somewhat a misnomer and no wonder that word always put a bomb in my brain!! :

At this point I am of the view that it 's subject is on a different plain compared to physics.......it is more ethereal rather than physical....more surreal rather than real , the soul  not  the body................celestial and spiritual. I read somewhere that to attain the true understanding of the matter requires  a 6th sense. Someone had told me that to understand this, revelations would have to be processed both by the mind AND the "hati". In this context I am using the same word "hati" as a representative of the seat of the 6th sense. At this point in my search, I reckon that the understanding/justification  would manifest in something that you would "feel"  e.g. the feeling of inner peace, enlightenment. ..........Could that be faith??  :hmm:

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 10-5-2006 06:30 PM ]

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Post time 10-5-2006 10:37 AM | Show all posts
To strengthen my argument  I put forth  herewith  Pluto stands on the concept of reality. I am strong advocate of rationalism and I put it that empirical methods as subordinate to  it. As a layman and no formal training my path towards understanding reality  is a hazardous and painful trip, however, it is worth taking  and very satisfying.

Plato, the pupil of Socrates, carried the Socratic teaching into the region of metaphysics. If knowledge through concepts is the only true knowledge, it follows, says PIato, that the concept represents the only reality, and all the reality, in the object of our knowledge. The sum of the reality of a thing, is therefore the Idea. Corresponding to the internal, or psychological, world of our concepts is not only the world of our sense experience (the shadow-world of phenomena....anda tentu ingat konsep manusia  dalam gua atau katak bawah tempurong), but also the world of Ideas, of which our world of concepts is only a reflection, and the world of sense phenomena, a shadow merely. That which makes anything to be what it is, the essence, as we should call it, is the Idea of that thing existing in the world above us. In the "thing" itself, the phenomenon presented by the senses, there is a participation of the Idea, limited, disfigured and debased by union with a negative principle of limitation called matter. The metaphysical constituents of reality are, therefore, the Ideas as positive factors and this negative principle. From the Ideas comes all that is positive, permanent, intelligible, eternal in the world. From the negative principle come imperfection, negation, change, and liability to dissolution. Thus, profiting by the epistemological doctrines of Socrates, without losing sight of the antagonistic teachings of the Eleatics and of Heraclitus, Plato evolved his theory of Ideas as a metaphysical solution of the problem of change, which had a baffled his predecessors.:hmm::hmm:

[ Last edited by  thamrong at 10-5-2006 10:43 AM ]

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