Deism..

Sephiroth

S.A.M ... dr apa yg kamu tulis, sudah nyata yg akal kamu sudah tak mampu berfikir dgn betul sampai kamu tak dpt menbezakan antara kenyataan dgn soalan. Sudah ... perbincangan ini dgn kau sudah tamat di sini.

S.A.M

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 15-12-2008 14:16
S.A.M ... dr apa yg kamu tulis, sudah nyata yg akal kamu sudah tak mampu berfikir dgn betul sampai kamu tak dpt menbezakan antara kenyataan dgn soalan. Sudah ... perbincangan ini dgn kau sudah ta ...

AKAL kau tak mampu JAWAB soalan ku kan?. Sedangkan nama kau sendiri tak tau,' Dimana nama kau pd diri kau, apa lagi mengenal Tuhan?.

gunblade712

kau baru perasan akan sikap seph nih ker?

Sephiroth

I believe that the first form of practical Deism belief comes from Buddhism.

2500 years ago, because of the corruptions in Hindu system such as the Caste System, Gautama Buddha rose up and begins to "rediscover" the truth. He eliminated the unnecessary need for rituals and practises (something still very common among Hindus today) and recreate Spiritualism in a more stuble manner - through Rationalism, Logic and Truth. This is the first form of Deism, in my opinion.

I hope that in the future, we (humans only) could all take the similar approach. We should examine whether we need to follow foolish beliefs and rituals and whether such practise is actually leading us toward developing Spiritually. IF such approach does not lead us toward Spiritualism (and toward a Better Us), then THROW IT AWAY.

Man can only be mature and spiritually strong when he takes Gautama Buddha's steps and start determing what is the right path to Spiritualism.

ussopp

hmmm....sy faham dalam Islam dilarang memikirkan tentang zat Tuhan........

tentu ini yang kamu maksudkan umat Islam malas berfikir kan? correct me if im wrong.

ada cerita dalam Al-Quran, beginilah firman Tuhan.....

"Dan ketika Nabi Musa datang pada waktu Yang Kami telah tentukan itu, dan Tuhannya berkata-kata dengannya,
maka Nabi Musa (merayu dengan) berkata: "Wahai Tuhanku! Perlihatkanlah kepadaKu (ZatMu Yang Maha Suci) supaya Aku dapat melihatMu".

Allah berfirman: "Engkau tidak sekali-kali akan sanggup melihatKu, tetapi pandanglah ke Gunung itu, maka kalau ia tetap berada di tempatnya, nescaya Engkau akan dapat melihatKu", setelah Tuhannya "Tajalla" (menzahirkan kebesarannya) kepada Gunung itu, (maka) "TajalliNya" menjadikan Gunung itu hancur lebur dan Nabi Musa pun jatuh pengsan. setelah ia sedar semula, berkatalah ia: "Maha suci Engkau (Wahai Tuhanku), Aku bertaubat kepadaMu, dan Akulah orang Yang awal pertama beriman (pada zamanku)- (Surah al A'raf : 143)

dalam Islam, benar, kami tidak dibenarkan memikirkan tentang zat Tuhan kerana tak akan meluaskan akal tetapi menyempitkan akal...


sudah beribu-ribu tahun lamanya dalam sejarah manusia cuba memikirkan hal ini tetapi semuanya berakhir dgn jalan buntu...

ini adalah kerana mereka sendiri yang menghadkan zat Tuhan itu kepada apa yg mereka faham tentang dunia 3 dimensi ini...


Islam ada bagi guideline tentang macamana nak kenali Tuhan, iaitu dgn kenali diri sendiri, dengan melihat alam dan merenung alam dan cara2 lain ialah merenung sifat2 Tuhan seperti Yang Maha Kuasa dan lain2....

hanya dengan cara ini ilmu tentang Tuhan dapat diperluas, tetapi sebagai guideline terakhir , Islam telah memberitahu yang memikirkan zat Tuhan hanya akan menyebabkan manusia mencapai kebuntuan....kamu boleh terus berfikir tentang ini jika kamu mahu, saya pun boleh berifikir mengenai hal ini jika saya mahu, tetapi jika kita buntu, itu semua sudah pun dijangkakan....hehe...

gunblade712

betul.. kenal Tuhan pada sifat-Nya...

kalau dibayangkan jugak dengan akal fikiran akan sifat Tuhan itu, maka itu yang membuatkan manusia jadi samada gila, ataupun mula mengukir2 dan mengira2 akan rupa fizikal Tuhan itu...

dalam erti kata lain, kalau boleh dilukiskan sifat 'panas', kalau boleh dilukiskan sifat 'angin menghembus', maka bolehlah dilukiskan 'sifat Tuhan' ini..

petola

berkaitan dgn tuhan, pemikiran manusia sebenarnya tak pernah ada kemajuan...
kat situ2 jugak... pusing2...

setelah katalah 3000 tahun, isu yg sama masih dibangkit jugak..
jawapannya itu2 jugak.
kalau ada yg baru pun cuma bumbu2 saja yg berlainan..
asasnya tetap sama..
so dalam hal2 metafizik, pemikiran manusia memang terhad.

sebab itu tuhan bagi explain siapa dia sebenarnya melalui kitab suci/wahyu/revelation...

saya tak fikir 1000 tahun lagi manusia boleh capai kemajuan dlm hal ini...

setahu saya rata2 ahli2 falsafah dan teologi zaman pembaharuan dan pencerahan di barat pun bersependapat yg hal2 metafizik ini hanya boleh diimani atau dipercayai gitu2 saja... tanpa perlu bantuan akal atau reason... sebab ia tak tercapai oleh akal.

akal nih takat main2 logika akal atau mantiq gitu... terutama logika aristotles. Kalau boleh diterima akal... ha... dikira benar gitu. Istilah yg diguna ialah pengetahuan a priori.

Malangnya setiap produk akal ni sentiasa ada ruang2 untuk disangkal dgn argumen2 akal yg lain... malah yg self-refuting pun tak kurang.

logika ahli2 kalam yg terkenal itupun boleh disangkal dgn pelbagai cara dgn mudah.
yang menyangkal pula boleh disangkal dgn argumen yg lain pulak.  

so pengetahuan apriori atau hasil akal murni ni tak banyak perkembangan sebenarnya. Memang betul kalau dikata akal kita terhad.

tapi dlm hal2 yg berkait dengan hal2 fizikal, pengetahuan posteriori, kita telah mencapai banyak kemajuan melalui sains yg mengguna kaedah empirik. Tapi itupun banyak juga yg benar hari ini rupanya tak benar esok. Ada seorang ahli sains terkenal kata apa yg dikata pengetahuan sains itu ialah sekadar kebenaran sains saja... iaitu kebenaran yg diterima oleh komuniti sains semasa sebagai benar. Ia bukan kebenaran mutlak. Esok lusa boleh saja jadi salah.

akal manusia secara kolektif mungkin boleh mencapai banyak perkara baru... tetapi secara individu bagi saya pencapaiannya adalah amat2 terhad. Berapa ramai antara kita yg boleh tahu kebenaran secara mutlak misalnya... atau yg boleh bagi rasional kepada setiap pegangan dan kepercayaan kita secara pasti misalnya?

kita biasanya akan mati dulu sebelum mengetahui apa yg patut kita ketahui...

[ Last edited by  petola at 17-12-2008 10:39 PM ]

airfilterbersih

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 15-12-2008 09:10 AM
Pemikiran manusia terhad? Siapa yg menghadkannya? Kau? Datuk nenek kamu? Mereka2 yg memanggill diri mereka sbg "ketua" atau "pakar agama"? Siapa yg menghadkan pemikiran manusia? Sila jawab.

Ka ...

kau berjaye berfikir dgn baik bile sembah patung sebagai tuhan kau....

airfilterbersih

Originally posted by gunblade712 at 15-12-2008 11:57 AM
ahh sephiroth memang macam tu...

dah sound orang, dah cabar orang, bila orang ajak jumpe, bila aku sahut cabaran dia, dia kecut melarikan diri.. agama Hindu ajar dia jadi bacul agaknya..

sk ...

sambung skit....

pastu report kt acehand ckp kte hine agame die ...

die je layak meyalak kt sini dgn ckp kosong die tu...

airfilterbersih

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 15-12-2008 02:16 PM
S.A.M ... dr apa yg kamu tulis, sudah nyata yg akal kamu sudah tak mampu berfikir dgn betul sampai kamu tak dpt menbezakan antara kenyataan dgn soalan. Sudah ... perbincangan ini dgn kau sudah ta ...

bile X pat jwb spt biase la....

larikkk!!!!!!!

jaundice

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 16-12-2008 09:44 AM
I believe that the first form of practical Deism belief comes from Buddhism.

2500 years ago, because of the corruptions in Hindu system such as the Caste System, Gautama Buddha rose up and begins to "rediscover" the truth. He eliminated the unnecessary need for rituals and practises (something still very common among Hindus today) and recreate Spiritualism in a more stuble manner - through Rationalism, Logic and Truth. This is the first form of Deism, in my opinion.

I hope that in the future, we (humans only) could all take the similar approach. We should examine whether we need to follow foolish beliefs and rituals and whether such practise is actually leading us toward developing Spiritually. IF such approach does not lead us toward Spiritualism (and toward a Better Us), then THROW IT AWAY.

Man can only be mature and spiritually strong when he takes Gautama Buddha's steps and start determing what is the right path to Spiritualism.

Do you even understand what is being discussed here? We're talking about the deism as explained by Neraka Bulan.

Originally posted by Neraka Bulan at 14-12-2008 08:56 PM

Deism is the belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world.

In Buddhism, they don't just throw out the obligation of believing in the existence of the creator God, but Buddhism even discourages even pondering on whether this creator exists or not. So Buddhism ain't Deism.

[ Last edited by  jaundice at 18-12-2008 03:29 AM ]

Sephiroth

by jaundice

Do you even understand what is being discussed here? We're talking about the deism as explained by Neraka Bulan.

What do you understand by the term "Deism"? If you do not understand what "Deism" here means other than to qoute from someone else's qoute, then you could merely waste my time.

I have understood what Neraka Bulan have stated and given Buddhism as a practical example of Deism. If you do not agree, that is your opinion.

In Buddhism, they don't just throw out the obligation of believing in the existence of the creator God, but Buddhism even discourages even pondering on whether this creator exists or not. So Buddhism ain't Deism.

Question here could be - WHICH Buddhism? Mahayana Buddhism? Thervada Buddhism? Zen Buddhism? Or some other Buddhism?

Believing or not believing in God is not the issue here. What is a issue here is that those who follow Deism rejects some of the elements in their belief and take a simpler approach toward the goal (Spiritualism). If that you do not understand, then I have nothing to say.

tickmeoff

I do not see anything wrong being an Atheist, Theist, Deist ..it's people's freewill to choose whatever they want to believe in.

jaundice

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 18-12-2008 09:33 AM
What do you understand by the term "Deism"? If you do not understand what "Deism" here means other than to qoute from someone else's qoute, then you could merely waste my time.

I have understood what Neraka Bulan have stated and given Buddhism as a practical example of Deism. If you do not agree, that is your opinion.

From Neraka Bulan's post, he gave the definiton of deism as "the belief that a supreme natural God exists..." so deism is based on this belief. While Buddhism does not make it necessary for the believers to believe in God, so how can Buddhism be deism?

Believing or not believing in God is not the issue here. What is a issue here is that those who follow Deism rejects some of the elements in their belief and take a simpler approach toward the goal (Spiritualism).

It is the issue. Heck, even the word "deism" came from the root word deus, which means "god". That was from the link that Neraka Bulan provided.

jaundice

But even if we ignore the first part about God in Deism, (as taken from the definition in Neraka Bulan's original post) and focus on the second part: "religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world", does Buddhism still count as Deism? How can Buddhism be based on reason and observation, while it requires belief in concepts which cannot be observed and figured out by reason alone, such as the state of Nirvana, Enlightenment, karma, reincarnation, etc... these are based on faith, not entirely on "the application of reason and observation".

petola

god in deism is a secular god..

he has forgotten us...
and we do not need him more...

[ Last edited by  petola at 18-12-2008 06:16 PM ]

petola

selain itu deism sgt sesuai bagi org2 yg percaya atau mendokong darwinisme

evolusi, natural selection etc. tak perlukan campurtangan tuhan dah

ia bergerak sendiri seperti yg telah ditentukan oleh tuhan awal2

try read the blind watchmaker oleh richard dawkins misalnya..

Sephiroth

Originally posted by tickmeoff at 18-12-2008 10:35 AM
I do not see anything wrong being an Atheist, Theist, Deist ..it's people's freewill to choose whatever they want to believe in.

Yes, but here's the problem - Muslims do not believe in Free Will. According to them, only their Allah have free will and the rest of humanity have to endure being animals forever.

As you may know, what differs humans from animals are our exercise of free will. We can choose to become good or evil by our own actions, thus we could also be able to free ourselves from suffering - whether we maybe Theist, Atheist, Deist and such.

Which means, a Muslims do not accept that you are capable of choosing your own belief and your own version of God. A muslim have the right to force you to believe in what he believes ( by persuasion or by force) because he believes that you are not capable of making decision against their god.

So, please bear in mind that notion of free will here only applies to non-Muslims alone. Muslims do not believe in such things.

Sephiroth

Originally posted by jaundice at 18-12-2008 05:24 PM
But even if we ignore the first part about God in Deism, (as taken from the definition in Neraka Bulan's original post) and focus on the second part: "religious truths can be arrived at by the ap ...

Answer - YES.

Religious Truth CAN be obtained by means of Logic, Reasoning and Rational thinking. That is the fundamental of Deism. What I understand about Deism here is that Deism agrees that there is a Supreme Force in the Universe. However, they decline to accept the religious beliefs of what this Supreme Force could be. Which means that they reject the notions of a dead man hanging on a cross, or some Arabic god which wants humans to remain as animals or some other god which makes no sense.

For truth to be truthful, it MUST be according to Logic, Reason and Rational thinking. Without this three faculty, a Religion is NOTHING.

Sephiroth

Originally posted by petola at 18-12-2008 06:11 PM
god in deism is a secular god..

he has forgotten us...
and we do not need him more...

No ... it is you who have forgotten Him. :re:

Compared to today's people, people who lived in Ancient times like in Indus Valley, Yangze Valley (China), Nil valley (Egypt) and other parts of early settlements have all had similar concept of god(s) - many gods who lives with Men with One God above all of them. They lived with Nature, respected Nature and only took what they needed.

Today's so-called modern men are greedy, selfish and they have organized religions which organised NOTHING. Today's men are spiritually DEAD. They just pray because they were taught to pray. Nothing more. They do not know God and they do not care to find out about God because their religions did not teach them to find God.

Time will come when Organized Religions are swept away and the Humans will return to the God of Nature.