What Soora 2:23 really says to SFE Talk?

Uhuh? So where are the objective criteria for this sura 2:23 challenge? Who gets to be judge for this competition?
Can Muslims make sura 2:23 intelligible after beating around the bush?

peace

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-9-30 08:50 AM:
Uhuh? So where are the objective criteria for this sura 2:23 challenge? Who gets to be judge for this competition?
Can Muslims make sura 2:23 intelligible after beating around the bush?
...

It's all there deb, either you can or you can't.  Where are the Christian Scholars who say that the criteria are not "objective".  I gave you a quote from one who not only agrees with the criteria, took the challenge, AND THEN ADMITTED HE FAILED.  :stp:

Gibb, a certain Christian scholar, says: "Even if we attempt to reorder the words of the Quran, we will not be able to put them in a new and meaningful order; we must replace them exactly where they were before."

[ Last edited by The_Criteria on 30-9-2003 at 08:36 PM ]

Have no idea who this Gibb fella is, and neither do you. Chances are,he don't exist.

Now, where are the objective criteria for the challenge.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-9-30 11:35 PM:
Have no idea who this Gibb fella is, and neither do you. Chances are,he don't exist. Now, where are the objective criteria for the challenge.

SFE Talk has this really nasty habit of going in circles when he's gassed out on real deal rebuttals. Come on SFE Talk, I'm still waiting on you to tell me if "when in doubt" seriously constitutes a challenge.No where in 2:23 is mentioned these requirements of a competition let alone a challenge. No mention of a judge only witnesses. If the 2:23 were indeed a challenge it would have been made known of by Allah already. So it isn't a challenge but a invitation for you to create a verse one on one, a paragraph for a paragraph, chapter for chapter that is similiar in all manner of prose, eloquence and gematrical value sequencing and originality without defacing, altering and disturbing the mathematical balance of quranic expressions. Obviously Gibbs and the rest of the Christian scholars on T_C 's posting list knew their Quranic comparative study when they made their final comments on the Quran and consequently the 2:23.

Well fellas, here a wonderful link for you all to feast on and Fuzzman's sure you'd all benefit somehow for its content values. Here goes.

http://www.iiie.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html

The link above has all to do with the truth of Al-Quran and Fuzzman finds it to be of help in uplifting the righteousness of the 2:23. There is one apragraph that really strikes me on the authenticity and I've made an effort to highlight it here separately.

The Qur抋n also mentions a good amount of historical information about which the Bible is completely silent. From which portion of the Bible were the following copied?

    * The stories of the people of 慉d and Thamud, and their Prophets, Hud (p) and Saleh (p).
    * The dialogue between Prophet Noah (p) and his son before the flood (Q.11:42-43).
    * The dialogue between Abraham (p) and his father (Q.6:74), as well as between he and a king (Q.2:258), and between he and his people (Q.22:70-102; 29:16-18; 37:83-98; 21:57).
    * The mention of the city of Iram (Q.89:7).
    * The Pharaoh of the Exodus having drowned, with his body preserved as a sign for people of future generations (Q.10:90-92).
    * Jesus抯 miracles of speaking from the cradle (Q.3:46), and his producing (by God抯 will) a bird from clay (Q.3:49), etc.

Fuzzman fairly sees that SFE Talk is still "in doubt". Why not do the 2:23 for enlightenment?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 1-10-2003 at 12:53 AM ]

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-9-30 11:35 PM:
Have no idea who this Gibb fella is, and neither do you. Chances are,he don't exist.

Now, where are the objective criteria for the challenge.

AGAIN, you shoot right pass the point.  The question:

WHERE ARE THE CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS WHO SAY THE CRITERIA IS NOT OBJECTIVE.  You are a religous nothing in the field of scholars.  Lets hear from the "big dogs".  Do you know of ANY SCHOLAR who said the criteria is not objective?  So now it is also evident that you argue with the Christian Scholars.  Where will it end with you deb?

[ Last edited by The_Criteria on 1-10-2003 at 02:19 AM ]

It doesn't take a schorlar of any sort to tell us that Sura 2:23 has no objective criteria, it just takes common sense.

cheers

Fuzzman

[size=4Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-10-1 08:27 AM:
It doesn't take a schorlar of any sort to tell us that Sura 2:23 has no objective criteria, it just takes common sense. cheers

As surely it doesn't take a scholar of any discipline to tell us that the start of 2:23 which speaketh " WHEN IN DOUBT..." doesn't make for a challenge while the embodiment of the 2:23 does indeed carry the so-called "objective criteria" by inviting doubtful people like you to create to the likeness of any soora with the collabo of your helpers and witnesses.

I find it laughable that T_C has fairly described you for what you are , i.e. a person that has no true instructional guidance from a qualified scholar either in the field of Christianity or Islamic study but always gets on a roll squaking for the sake of creating unwarranted ripples on issues tnat you cannot make inroads of.

The 2:23 originated in the time where doubtful Arabs were invited to prove the Quran a creation of man. At the time that the Quran was revealed, the literary talent and eloquence of the Arabs was at its peak. Works created by poets and orators commanded the attention and admiration of everyone, and literature constituted the only art cultivated by the Arab elite.

With the revelation of the Quran, the Arabs made the acquaintance of a fresh and new form of speech which was neither prose nor poetry, but the melody of which was more beautiful and attractive than that of poetry and the discourse of which was more eloquent and effective than that of prose.

Let us not forget that this "challenge" was issued to a people whose leaders were threatened by the devastating attacks of the Quran, their lives, their property, their ancient customs, their ancestors, their whole social position. If it had been at all possible for the Arabs to respond to the "challenge" of the Quran, they would have taken it up immediately, with the unstinting aid of the masters of eloquence that were by no means rare in that age. Thus they would have invalidated the proofs of the Quran and won an everlasting victory. But as history would have the last saying ; they did not and so what makes you think that simpleton you or any other Christian scholar could or even would ?

The Quran issued a "challenge" not only to the contemporaries of the Prophet but also to men in all ages. In order to demonstrate the incapacity and impotence of people to imitate it, it issued the following universal proclamation: "Were all of mankind to come together and wish to produce the like of the Quran, they would never succeed, however much they aided each other." ( 17:88 )

It then modifies the "challenge" and reduces its scope by saying: "Do people imagine that this Quran is not from Us, and that you, Oh Prophet, are falsely attributing it to Us? Tell them that if they are speaking truly they should produce ten surahs resembling the Quran, and that they are free to call on the aid of anyone but God in so doing." ( 11:13 )

Then, at a third stage, the scope of the "challenge" is reduced still further: the deniers are called on to produce only a single surah resembling the Quran: "Oh people, if you doubt the heavenly origin of this Book which We have sent down to Our servant, the Prophet, produce one surah like it." ( 2:23 )

Since we know that some of the shorter surahs consist only of a few brief sentences, this final challenge constituted a definitive proof of the human being's inability to imitate the Quran.  

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 1-10-2003 at 10:17 AM ]

still no objective criteria and judges? still cannot make sura 2:23 intelligible?
Hahahahahahahahahaha.............

cheers

Fuzzman

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-10-1 10:18 AM:
still no objective criteria and judges? still cannot make sura 2:23 intelligible? Hahahahahahahahahaha.............
cheers

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
And its laughable to think that some "self-appointed scholars" still think that "when in doubt" constitutes a challenge while creating disillusionments and smokescreens of phantom criterias and judges that simply do not exist in the 2:23 invite. Anybody with the ability to read will easily see that the 2:23 has no mention of a contest nor a competition, does not carry the issue of a judge when there is no call for a competition and  that the "invitation criteria" clearly requires the doubtor to create a chapter of similiarity to any chosen chapter with the association of the doubtors own helpers and witnesses called upon fron the doubtor's own religion. Allah is indeed very generous with HIS invitational call and has provided the easiest of easies to doubtors.

ARI FUZZMAN

So why are Muslims going around using sura 2:23 to challenge others?

Ari Fuzzmann, I love your replies to SEF talk.

Keep up the good work.

Hahahahahahaha............... self talking again?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by asinah_dot_net at 2003-10-1 01:51 PM:
Ari Fuzzmann, I love your replies to SEF talk. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm glad to know that you like my responses to SFE Talk. I guess you can see how SFE Talk's squirming when he cannot grapple with issues that he can't size up to. I guess he's the only fella who takes "WHEN IN DOUBT" to be a full-fledged challenge !

ARI FUZZMAN

Up until now, we have not seen any objective criteria for the challenge nor suggestion of any judges.Sura 2:23 remains unintelligible.

peace

Fuzzman

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-10-3 05:09 AM:
Up until now, we have not seen any objective criteria for the challenge nor suggestion of any judges.Sura 2:23 remains unintelligible. peace

And likewise in manner of debate or strong rebuttal, we have not seen or have yet to observe you moving off into a direction of a more sustainable counter discourse to support your argument over the 2:23. lWhatever it takes, makes or breaks, I'm in for the long haul fella, so gimme your best shot always.
This here's the skinny on the 2:23. Eyeball it real quick and tell me in your simplest words as to which part is it that's biting you real hard ?

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

So here lies my open personal "challenge" to you that speaketh in form of:-
What does the opening first six words of the soora that makes up these words  of " AND IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT" means in simple everyday English understanding ?
So pray tell where stays the part or parts deemed "intelligible" ?
Where lies the so-called "challenge" ?
Where speaketh the summoning for a judge other than the spaken helpers and witnesses allowed from your own faith as described as "besides Allah" ?
Where is the so-called "objective criteria" when the requirement of such has been reflected in the verse of the soora itself which you so blindly brush off as insufficient ?

Fuzzman thinks it is high time that [after all these years and the many irrelevant posts of yours] you start to make sense of your argument instead of just clinging on to you sickening one liners that don't reflect your intellectual sense of true understanding of the topics that you get involoved in.- i.e  posting for the sake of posting

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 3-10-2003 at 10:36 AM ]

So why are Muslims going around challenging people to produce a sura like it? Even you yourself are guilty of such antics Fuzzy.

peace

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote:- So why are Muslims going around challenging people to produce a sura like it? Even you yourself are guilty of such antics Fuzzy.

To produce " a soora like it", you have to be in doubt. That element is a requirement to fullfil the production of the required soora. Is the call to produce a soora like it when in a doubt considered a challenge? Show Fuzzman as to how you've arrived at this assumption?
I see you chose not to answer my post above. That was expected of you anyway. I'll just shove it in here again for you to try all over again.

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

So here lies my open personal "challenge" to you that speaketh in form of:-

What does the opening first six words of the soora that makes up these words  of " AND IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT" means in simple everyday English understanding ?

So pray tell where stays the part or parts deemed "intelligible" ?

Where lies the so-called "challenge" ?

Where speaketh the summoning for a judge other than the spaken helpers and witnesses allowed from your own faith as described as "besides Allah" ?

Where is the so-called "objective criteria" when the requirement of such has been reflected in the verse of the soora itself which you so blindly brush off as insufficient ?

Fuzzman thinks it is high time that [after all these years and the many irrelevant posts of yours] you start to make sense of your argument instead of just clinging on to you sickening one liners that don't reflect your intellectual sense of true understanding of the topics that you get involved in.- i.e  posting for the sake of posting. On the issue of "being guilty", Fuzzman puts it to you that it is you that is guilty of  evasion from direct confronation in all manners of the word as you have not only dodged sizing up your  premature claim but have resorted to "intelligible gibber" to muffle that inability of yours.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 3-10-2003 at 10:52 AM ]

Is the call to produce a soora like it when in a doubt considered a challenge?

Yes it is.
And you too are guilty of issuing it as a challenge to those who do not believe Quran as the word of God.
And Muslims still cannot make thise very verse intelligible up tioll today.
No objective criteria, no judges, no valid challenge.

Fuzzman

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Fuzzman: Is the call to  produce a soora like it when in doubt considered a challenge?
SFE Talk: Yes it is.
[Good. Then please put up your evidence structure on this and show us where they be and how they support your allegation.

SFE Talk: And you too are guilty of issuing it as a challenge to those who do not believe Quran as the word of God.
Fuzzman: Very amusing connoctation coming from you SFE Talk! The part that you said "a challenge to those who do not beleive in the Quran as the word of God". I assume you WERE talking about the 2:23 aren't you ? Well if you were you would know two things by now. The first being that - when in doubt - doesn't constitute for a hardline challenge. And secondly there was no mention of doing the 2:23 on account of not believing in the Quran. The 2:23 is the MOST GENTLEST and SUBTLEST of all invitations to discover the truth when in doubt. It was made out in the most polite structure and choice of words that bore no domineering nor omni-agressive words. In simple words, there was no element of harrassment or intimidation in the tonage of the words used. So how can you say that the 2:23 is a challenge issued to those who do not believe the Quran as the word of God ?

SFE Talk : And Muslims still cannot make thise very verse intelligible up tioll today.
Fuzzman: Let's not talk about the Moslems in general. Let's just talk about Fuzzman and SFE Talk. You see and most eveybody will see that the only person that is "himself intelliglible over the 2:23" is only you and not me. You "religiously "stick to your lame and unsustainable  "No objective criteria, no judges, no valid challenge" one liner albeit; your only sole savior for the 2:23 when we all know for a fact that you can't win over the 2:23 which ever way you try.

There is no challenge in the 2:23 because if there were truly one , Allah would have spaken of a judge or something to that effect. The mindset of the 2:23 becoming a challenge arises only whrn Westernised thinktaks caanot break the formadibility of the 2:23. It is this failure that automatically presents the 2:23 as a challenge. On the part of the word "challenge" issued as a challenge by global Moslems doesn't come from Quran or Islam but from individual mimicry of Islamic scholars who merely used that terminology already made used by the defeated Western scholars. It's using the words of the defeated to address the defeated. Nothing more.

SFE Talk:No objective criteria, no judges, no valid challenge.
Fuzzman: That's right fella. Now you're getting the hang of it! No judges therefore no valid challenge. Now you're getting the picture that says the 2:23 ain't really a challenge but a invitation to discover when in doubt. Cheers fella!


ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 6-10-2003 at 10:45 AM ]

It is a challenge but not a valid one. I'm glad you agree with me.

cheers