What Soora 2:23 really says to SFE Talk?

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote: It is a challenge but not a valid one. I'm glad you agree with me.

Hahaha SFE Talk's tongue twisting has got the better of him. Now he says the 2:23 is a challenge "but not a valid one"? How really fast SFE Talk can metamorph his twisted thinking when the winds aren't pushing his ship?
I'm gonna quote what SFE Talk wrote earlier :
And Muslims still cannot make thise very verse intelligible up tioll today. No objective criteria, no judges, no valid challenge.


Yes SFE Talk. It's good to know that you did finally agree upon something with me after all these exchanges. And for that Fuzzman agrees with you about the 2:23 not being a challenge because there is no mention of a judge. Anyway can you please help out in the section of your sentence where you said that the 2:23 is a challenge but not a valid one ? Do you have a spin for that or do you want me to be you appointed helper and witness? Cheers fella.

ARI FUZZMAN

If its a challenge, then where are the objective criteria?

If Muslims like you are afraid to call it a challenge, why go around uissuing challenges to others?

cheers

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote: If its a challenge, then where are the objective criteria?

Fuzzman: How can the 2:23 be a challenge when Allah did not specify the need for a judge? No judge therefore no challenge. Simple as ABC. It is people like you who call the 2:23 a challenge because you cannot create even one chapter of the Quran when you were and are still in doubt over the coming of the Quran from God. Allah invited people like you to produce ten at first. Seeing that your people still couldn't really managed, Allah out of piety reduced  the request of ten chapters to just only one chapter and yet you people cannot even summon enough willpower to prove beyond doubt that Quran was the creation of Prophet Mohammad, the unlettered prophet.

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

The criteria whether objective or subjective is so clearly outlaid as underlined above. If you do not still understand, I think you need to go back and rehabilitate your literary capabilities.

SFE Talk wrote: If Muslims like you are afraid to call it a challenge, why go around uissuing challenges to others?

Let me requote you. Don't talk about other folks fella! Be focused. It is just you and me here.  What is there to fear about the 2:23 being a challenge when it isn't actually one? Anybody who can read will understand that the 2:23 IS NOT A CHALLENGE to non-Moslems. What Fuzzman is doing is issuing an INVITATION ONLY WHEN IN DOUBT to non-Moslems like you. See the difference now?  The 2:23 on its own merit is not a threat and is not provocative.

Looks like it is you that's afraid of Allah's invitation to you to produce a soora of its likeness with the helpers and witneses of yours that come from your own denomination that is existing besides Allah.  This fear of failure in producing a soora of the likeness of any chapter in the Quran has brought you down to misquoting the 2:23 as a challenge without credibility so that you can harbor your inability safely behind that misquotation with a false sense of security. Sorry fella but the 2:23 is only a invitation when in doubt; nothing more.

ARI FUZZMAN

Exactly,how could it be a valid challenge when there are no objective criteria stated and no judges stated.
The sura 2:23 challenge remains invalid cos its unintelligible. Thats what I always said.

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote: Exactly,how could it be a valid challenge when there are no objective criteria stated and no judges stated. The sura 2:23 challenge remains invalid cos its unintelligible. Thats what I always said.

May Allah be praised for making a blind Evangelist see. So you do agree that the 2:23 stands in better light as an INVITATION over being a CHALLENGE ? That's very good news coming from you, fella ! Now you get the point. After all these time. Now you know that -WHEN IN DOUBT- could never be taken to be a challenge but an invitation to discover the truthful properties of the Al-Quran. Since we both agree that the 2:23 could never be taken to be a valid challenge but factually a valid invitation because of two very important factors comprising the invitation to create only when in doubt in the first order and trailing in second, of the non-mention of a judge but only helpers and witnesses allowed in assisting you. Both these 2:23 facts overwhelmingly work hand in hand to prove only ONE conclusion - i.e that the 2:23 is not a valid challenge but a valid invitation.

We now move on to the next point of discussion. The part of the objective criteria which you consistantly insist does not exist. Come let's read some more to learn more shall we !

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Fuzzman puts it to you that the objective criteria is as underlined by Fuzzman. If you disagree, then by the power of Heaven, show Fuzzman how?

The only reason that the 2:23 had remained "unintelligible" to you all these while lies in your assumption of the 2:23 being a challenge. Try looking at the 2:23 as an invitation. As an invitation, is the 2:23 still unintelligible?

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 7-10-2003 at 12:05 AM ]

Oh I see, so now you want to turn it into a challenge. Did you change your Quran, or did you change?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-10-7 12:04 AM:
Oh I see, so now you want to turn it into a challenge. Did you change your Quran, or did you change?

Shucks fella. Don't tell me you're gonna go back on your words by disagreeing that the 2:23 was never meant to be a valid challenge? As for Fuzzman, my contention had always been that the 2:23 was never a challenge but a legitimate valid invitation. You do not agree on the 2:23 being a valid invitation? It's neither a challenge nor a invitation by your standards? So what are you gonna say next fella. Boy, you're doin' Fuzzman a fickle number that makes you a RUNAWAY BRIDE wannabe !

Fuzzman sticks by the Al-Quran. No change whatsoever. Sadly enough, looks like you've just ran out of wriggling space. Holler if you need a breather?

ARI FUZZMAN

Sura 2:23 is a challenge though not a valid.
You came along and say it is no challnge at all.
Now you turn around and say that it is a challenge.

OK, I'll take the challenge.
Show us what are the objective criteria for this challenge and tell us who gets to be judge.

Fuzzman

Nope my fickle-minded friend. Fuzzman sticks by the contention that the 2:23 is a valid invitation and not a valid challenge. Something that you had been shouting out loud about in earlier posts. You see it was you that agreed that the 2:23 was never a "intelligible and valid" challenge. Now you change lanes and say that the 2:23 is achallenge but not that valid? So why the change of heart now? Are you in doubt of your own thoughts? Boy o'boy fella! There's no medicine for this condition of yours for sure.

Maybe you either don't read too good or suffer some form of rabid reading probelm but whatever the grouse, the 2:23 is nothing but a valid invitation. You want a challenge? OK I'll give you a challenge but bear in mind that this challenge from me to you is personal and has nothing to do or impose on the 2:23.

Here goes.

I challenge you to prove to me that the 2:23 is not a valid invitation but a valid challenge.

There you have it. A personal challenge from me to you. The clock is ticking. So start writing fella !

ARI FUZZMAN

Aha! Now you say its not a challenge but an invitation. Invitataion for what? To produce a sura like it? Isn't that a challenge? Hahahahahaha.....

So where are teh objective criteeria formthe challenge and who are the judges? Where? Can you make sura 2:23 intelligible?

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote: Aha! Now you say its not a challenge but an invitation. Invitataion for what? To produce a sura like it? Isn't that a challenge? Hahahahahaha.....

Soora 2:23 :  [And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
Show me again where is the aspiration of a challenge in the 2:23? Why are you reluctant to really put up some really good rebuttals here? Can it be because you have none?  The 2:23 clearly and precisely says that a person should produce a soora only when in doubt. I'm sure you know that with a beginning like the one we have for the 2:23 [as shown in red above] , it is clearly exibited that this cannot br taken for a challenge because a challenge has to be a direct instruction that leaves practically no room for possible hesitance or choice.  A challenge blocks out choice to do or not to. Clearly - "And if you are in doubt..." - does not put up as trimmings for a challenge because it allows the luxury of choice. A challenge requires a judge and a jury. To do when in doubt and not to do if not in doubt. The 2:23 doesn't impose on the non-Moslem religious rights of the possible tasker as it only asks of the production of the required soora only when the tasker doubts that the Quran was sent down through Allah's servant in the form of Prophet Mohammad.

if you think that the invitation to - produce a soora like it in accordance to any chosen soora  only when in doubt - is considered a challenge, then I'm positively inclined to accuse that you have probelms apprehending English word usage.

SFE Talk wrote: So where are teh objective criteeria formthe challenge and who are the judges? Where? Can you make sura 2:23 intelligible?

The game is reversed on you now. Can you prove soora 2:23 to be intelligible as a challenge. Please show us the mention of the need of a judge in the soora itself. If you cannot, then it is overwhelming proof that the 2:23 is NOT a CHALLENGE. The objective criteria is simply to produce a chosen soora in its likeness ONLY when in doubt.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 7-10-2003 at 03:16 PM ]

There you go.

[2:23] If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

A non sensical challenge that even you admit is invalid cos there's no criteria and no judges.

cheers

Fuzzman

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

SFE Talk quotes:  [2:23] If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.
Even your quote of the 2:23 is wrong. No wonder you couldn't put up anything constructive on the 2:23. It's "besides God" and not "against God" fella. "Against God" makes the 2:23 sounds like an offensive challenge - which it is not. There you go. There you go. You're just good to go with nothing more than wishful thinking. The 2:23 has once more consumed your contorted view of it.

SFE Talk wrote: A non sensical challenge that even you admit is invalid cos there's no criteria and no judges.
So are you in agreement that the 2:23 is NOT a valid challenge?  There we finally have it. SFE Talk agrees on one count that the 2:23 is not a valid challenge because of the absence of the mention of a judge in 2:23. Therefore SFE Talk's view is in syncronised tandem with Fuzzman on the point that the 2:23 could never be a challenge for lack of a judge.  Now we move on to the issue of a credible criteria. So what is a "credible criteria" that fits your argument here?

You say that there is no CRITERIA for the 2:23? Please tell Fuzzman your defination of a CRITERIA. Below in undelined text is what Fuzzman makes to be the meaning of the word CRITERIA

Taken from The American Heritage

Come on, lets get on with the challenge. So where are teh objective criteria? One at a time please.

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote: Come on, lets get on with the challenge. So where are teh objective criteria? One at a time please.

What challenge? Fuzzman takes it that the challenge you mentioned this time is between you and me. To see who wins the end game eh fella? You can't possibly be talking about the 2:23 being a challenge because way up above people will read that you have agreed with me that the 2:23 cannot be taken to be a valid challenge because there is no mention of a judge in soora 2:23.

As for the criteria, why don't you read what the dictionary says about its meaning. Let me assist  you again by putting it up here again as always. This time please pay attention to the details provided fella!

You say that there is no CRITERIA for the 2:23? Please tell Fuzzman your defination of a CRITERIA. Below in undelined text is what Fuzzman makes to be the meaning of the word CRITERIA

Taken from The American Heritage

That right, sura 2:23 is not a valid challenge.
So why are Muslim boys going around issuing such a challenge?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-10-8 10:57 AM:
That right, sura 2:23 is not a valid challenge.
So why are Muslim boys going around issuing such a challenge?

Very good Mr.SFE Talk. Finally after all your false alarms, you finally admit that the 2:23 is not a validated challenge thus proving that Allah does not impose HIS will nor HIS religion upon those bent on going to Hell, save for the Jews and the Christians who have repented.

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Allah the All Merciful and The All Knowing in the verse of the 2:23 only invites you, not of the Quranic faith to produce any chapter of the likeness of any chosen soora, with helpers of your own faith that is described as "besides Allah", to be your witnesses as to ascertain whether you have succeeded in actually creating a chapter of the likeness of the chosen chapter of your choice.Simple as that. There is no element of hostility or agressiveness in the 2:23 or any other chapters within Quran, and this is what makes Quran and Islam the most beautiful religion ever presented to Mankind.

How can Moslem boys go around issuing challenges over the 2:23 when we already know that the 2:23 is not a challenge but only an invitation? I can understand your frustrations on this matter because Moslem boys were probably lobbying back the "challenge idea" that you must have fed them with in the first place. Since you are unable to produce a chapter as asked of in the 2:23, you automatically shut out that inability by saying that the 2:23 is a challenge to non-Moslems. As the Moslems were addressing you on your turf, they'd probably used your folly of the challenge that never was. Then you turned the tables and decided that it was the Moslems who initiated the 2:23 as a provocative challenge out of despair.

Are you still unclear over the meaning of the word criteria that you had used for the 2:23? I'd be more than willing to pursue this matter much further if you don't mind being on the receiving end when I've finished with my case. However I'm glad to know that with the onset of days to come , Fuzzman finds that you are getting to understand the 2:23 much much better. Good for you old sport !

ARI FUZMANN

Thats what Ive been saying for the past 3 years. Sura 2:23 was never valid challenge in the first place. Thanks for admitting it.

There are no objective criteria and no judges mentioned.
The funny thing is, the Muslim ummah is going around issuing challenges based on this invalid challenge. Hahahahahahaha...............

Fuzzman

SFE Talk wrote: Thats what Ive been saying for the past 3 years. Sura 2:23 was never valid challenge in the first place. Thanks for admitting it.There are no objective criteria and no judges mentioned.

Hahaha trying to wriggle out of this one again dear fella? For the past three years you've been trying to sell the idea that the 2:23 isn't a valid challenge because you were trying your best to prove that the requirements of the verse itself wasn't important to warrant Christian attention on its true manner of undertaking. The undertaking that requires Christians to undertake the test of producing a chapter that rivals any chosen soora. The test to prove once and for all, in manners of decisiveness in refuting the Quran as being from God but created solely through the hands of Prophet Mohammad.

Since not one Christian scholar, let alone you have not been able successfully in undertaking the requirements of the 2:23, you then try to cloak that impossible task by making allegations that the 2:23 is invalided as a challenge for not having a proper criteria and the  need for a judge.  Your lame contention was based on the fact that without a judge to oversee the 2:23 ,there can be no challenge.

But as always you tend to trip over your own foot and bash your head on the floor with the help of gravity. You fail to answer the all consuming point of the 2:23 not requiring the need for judges as the test for the 2:23 was to be carried out only when in doubt. But if you have respect for the faiths of other people, you'd probably let it be at that. But no, you had to get all rowdy like, and go around shooting off your mouth by saying that the 2:23 isn't worth its weight for a challenge.

Soora 2:23 :  And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

The 2:23 is a valid challenge not as a challenge but as an invitation to overcome one's doubt about the Quran being the creation of Prophet Mohammad. If a doubtor who comes from a faith besides Allah could create a chapter of a likeness of any chapters in the Quran, then only will the argument of the Quran being the handiwork of Prophet Mohammad be taken seriously. Allah knows best. That is why to this day people like you can only bark at the foot of this really strong tree, without showing any resourcefulness in addressing the contents of the 2:23.

The 2:23 has its merits and strengths to prove that the Quran is from God Almighty and not the work of its servant, being Prophet Mohammad. And finally SFE Talk, for the past three years you were right to say that the 2:23 isn't a challenge. Only thing was that someone should have told you that the 2:23 was more of a subtle and polite invitation to prove the Quran of being the work of a human being and not God HIMSELF.

ARI FUZMANN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 9-10-2003 at 12:17 AM ]

Come on, lets get on with the challenge. So where are the objective criteria? Who gets to be judge?