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Author: Gray

Contradictions in the bible

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Post time 12-12-2003 03:17 AM | Show all posts
There are many variations in all the above verses - because no situation is the same AND Common sense should prevailed. In the old blblical times - slavery is not frowned upon. Maybe in a tiered society - master and slaves do hold some sort of social structure. (earthly beings are not a socialist or communist society - even in heaven there are ranked angels and so forth..)

This is one of many verses that prooves God does not approve of slavery in the bible

Micah 6:4
I brought you up out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam.

There are more, read Exodus 2:23/ 13:3/ 13:14/ 20:2 Deutronomy 5:6/ 6:12/ 7:8/ 8:14/ 13:5/ 13:10/ Joshua 24:17/ Judges 6:8/ Nehemiah 9:17/ Jeremiah 34:13/ Micah 6:4/ Hebrews 2:15

This one is interesting, as it asks for respect of slaves towards their master eventhough there are many verses that is against the very idea? And different versions of the bible have different usage of a vital word as a reference to a doctrine which clearly never exists or mentioned by Moses or Jesus themselves.

1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so (2) that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. NASB

1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.
NIV

WE very well know when the doctrine was made official by the RC

common sense. An example: u holdfast to your rules of not eating pig BUT you diest chemical/anti-biotic/growth hormone infested beef which is halal. Do you think god would rather u eat pork?

You clearly do not know the concept of Halal, yet you made yourself think that you know everything. This is your weakness

Hadith -  Abu Tha'labah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) prohibited the eating of every fanged beast of prey.

It is not only pork and nowadays there are certain people who are entrusted to examine whether certain processed food are halal before slabbing the 'halal' sticker for an example practiced here in M'sia.

If they know that it's not halal and lead muslims to eat non halal food then it's a sin that the entrusted people would have to bear. Since muslims who ate these food does not know of it's origin then it's a okay but if there are doubts then it's better to avoid eating them.

There are many other criterias to define Halal.

I don have much time to explain them in detail but i'll post alink for you to read about them if there are such in the internet if not i'll explain in more detail tommorow as it's already too late right now. Try not to make a point of too many questions and answers for me to reply at one time. Lets debate 1 or 2 issues at length at one time then only we move on.
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 12-12-2003 05:46 AM | Show all posts
>>You clearly do not know the concept of Halal, yet you made yourself think that you know everything. This is your weakness<<<

so you know everything under the sun?????????????????????????????????
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 12-12-2003 05:54 AM | Show all posts
>>It is not only pork and nowadays there are certain people who are entrusted to examine whether certain processed food are halal before slabbing the 'halal' sticker for an example practiced here in M'sia.
<<<

b.s lah.. in malaysia - if u have money - any food can be slapped with a halal sticker. Like in all the Gulf states - most of their livestocks import comes from either US and Australia. ALL  are infested with growth hormones and anti-biotics. NONE are `organically` reared.

DOes `halal` say anything about animal genetics ?
Does `halal` say anthing about feeding growth stimulants?


There u go again... harping on issues such as what should we eat, drink and wear. You u love your non-moslem neighbour as much as yourself - all your nation's problem would be much reduced.

ENDLESS arguments are futile. If you don't believe me - Just look at all the diff threads in this section of the forum. I m not going to cut my dong because someone say is is the `right` thing to do. period.

[ Last edited by whitepig on 12-12-2003 at 06:02 AM ]
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Post time 13-12-2003 12:51 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by whitepig at 12-12-2003 05:46 AM:
>>You clearly do not know the concept of Halal, yet you made yourself think that you know everything. This is your weakness<<<

so you know everything under the sun???????????????? ...


I nearly thought for a while that you are somewhat much more intelligent than the rest of the trinity blokes in here but with that statement of yours i have to give it a serious re think.

What i meant is that, if you are prepared to make accusations towards a certain issue you must make yourself at least knowledgable on that subject. Not by blindly making assumptions by especially saying 'god would rather u eat pork' as the hadith and Qu抮an has clearly states of what is Haram and Halal and under what consequences.

Halal food selection - chemichal list http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/halal.html

He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and
the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name
hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is
forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor
transgressing due limits, then is he guiltless. For
Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Al-Baqarah
2:173)


Why don't you read more on Halal and Haram and come back when you are better prepared.
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Post time 13-12-2003 01:07 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by whitepig at 12-12-2003 05:54 AM:
b.s lah.. in malaysia - if u have money - any food can be slapped with a halal sticker. Like in all the Gulf states - most of their livestocks import comes from either US and Australia. ALL  are infested with growth hormones and anti-biotics. NONE are `organically` reared.


That is why i've said before, read more and come back when you are better prepared cause you do look like a fool right now. You think we muslims take our Halal and Haram lightly? This is what GOD approve and disapproves of not something that a man has made up.

And i believe i have answered your NONE are 'organically' reared through the Al-Baqarah verse.

There u go again... harping on issues such as what should we eat, drink and wear. You u love your non-moslem neighbour as much as yourself - all your nation's problem would be much reduced.

ENDLESS arguments are futile. If you don't believe me - Just look at all the diff threads in this section of the forum. I m not going to cut my dong because someone say is is the `right` thing to do. period.


There you go again, by making yourself look vulnerable to attacks if i'm prepared to do so....who said about cutting your dong? Do you actually know the process of circumcision.
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Post time 13-12-2003 01:23 AM | Show all posts
On verses which seems contradictory ... i think if i
spend as much time as you trawling to websites - i
would get as many contradictions from the Quran. I
posted some in the past but i did not get any replies.
It is almost impossible to reply to contradictions
because not all of us are experts in the bible or
quran. Many seem to be - but are they?


Don抰 think but enlighten me with the contradictions
that you might think that you would find. What were
the contradictions made by you that was not answered
in the past? Did you forget of one accusation that
you抳e made issues from that was raised in the  answering-islam site and
I抳e replied to it and you've kept quiet after my reply.

To me and the muslims, the Qur抋n is perfect and insya
Allah there will be answers to all allegations made by
doubters.

I am not against the original Torah and Gospel as it
was descendeded to the prophets of Moses and Jesus.
But what I am against is the corruption that has been
made by men through out history to corrupt the minds
of Jesus followers.

An-Nissa 4:171
O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your
religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth.
Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A
Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on
Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe
in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity":
desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One
God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having
a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on
earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Al-Maidah 5:73
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a
Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they
desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a
grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among
them.

here was a chapter in 2Kings and Samuel which was
written centuries apart but yet when you look at the
bible - they are identical word for word verse for
verse. I was stupified because not even the church
pastor can offer any logical explanation. how can two
diff chapters from 2 diff authors come out exactly the
same. there must be some copycat somewhere.


You抳e said it yourself, some verses creates confusion
and what about god not being the author of confusion?

1 corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion....

If the bible is truly not corrupted Zondervan won't
have bought the publishing rights of a certain 'brand'
of bible for 14 million quids. How much money is
Zondervan making now...? I supposed we are lucky we
still have KJV.


Are you certain that the KJV contains the exact word
by word without having any of it抯 contents
added/removed/changed at all? The translated version
of KJV was made in the 17th century.

Moses and Jesus was sent to the Hebrews and they are a
troubled race and they have never learned their
lessons by defying God.

I wouldn't believe Saul/Paul the Jew and the RC didn't corrupt both the Torah and Gospel.

Al-Baqarah 2:40
O Children of Israel! Call to mind the (special)
favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your
Covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and
fear none but Me.

Yunus 10:93
We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful
dwelling place, and provided for them sustenance of
the best; it was after knowledge had been granted to
them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will
judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on
the Day of Judgment.

There are many verses in the Qur抋n that Allah made
reference of the attention that he had given to the
Hebrews but they are nothing but a corrupted race.

Finally
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 13-12-2003 08:03 AM | Show all posts
one issue at a time. do not rush me. remember i am not as intelligent or all-knowing as you, Juke.


>>You think we muslims take our Halal and Haram lightly?...<<

YEs. and yes. just by looking at the no. of moslems turning thru the turnstiles at the local mcDimWits and kayFCee stores.


Then read the 'why mcdimwits fries taste so good ' at the complaints and opinions section.

Lastly, u sound very fired up since u shed your MOD skin - are u trying to release pent up emotions and tensions boxed up during your stint in cari.forum. I suggest the toilet is a better place.

lastly what u believe i dun believe. vice versa. period.
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 13-12-2003 06:06 PM | Show all posts
JUKE
can we start with this small one

[size=4]
Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!
-- Sura 23:14
Will ye cry unto Baal and forsake the Best of creators, ... ?
-- Sura 37:125

How can it be that Allah is the best of creators (plural)? What other creators are in view when the Qur'an makes these statements?

unless ALLAH also possess dualism and trinity-ism.. pluralism...maybe? and who is 'WE" is that like a group of ALLAHs
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Post time 13-12-2003 11:55 PM | Show all posts
Originally posted by whitepig at 13-12-2003 08:03 AM:
one issue at a time. do not rush me. remember i am not as intelligent or all-knowing as you, Juke.


>>You think we muslims take our Halal and Haram lightly?...<<

YEs. and yes. ju ...


Fired up? Those idiots have gone too much and you think for a second that i'd let them have a go at attacking my religion just like that? McD and KFC are halal and unless you could prove otherwise then shut your trap cause you don't have the slightest idea of what your talkin about. PERIOD!

Besides, it proves more of you not knowing the concept at all. Like i said, read more then come back. Talks and accusations are simply BS. I need facts not kopitiam level of accusations. Besides, i'm not interested in educating you...so if there aren't any hard facts for you to make your case, then don't start any at all.

[ Last edited by Jukebox on 14-12-2003 at 12:13 AM ]
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Post time 14-12-2003 12:10 AM | Show all posts
Originally posted by whitepig at 2003-12-13 06:06 PM:
JUKE
can we start with this small one


Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with ...


aiyoo...for the 2nd time i have answered these questions of yours ler. Let me copy and paste the answers form page 2 of this thread.

Your question to me -

The Quran says, in Sura 23:14 and Sura 37:125 that Allah is "the Best of Creators," as we read in The Believers Sura 23:14, "Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!"

Those Who Set the Ranks, Drawn Up in Ranks Sura 37:125, "Will ye cry unto Baal and forsake the Best of creators?"

THE BEST of the best... how many creators are there? a team?



This question was raised in the answering-islam website tirelessly because trinity believers does not have any other grounds to question of the Qur'an and in an effort to make them feel secured of their 3 in 1 concept of God they emphasize on the word 'we'. Besides, i bet you couldn't prove that the Torah or Gospel (not of the letters of the apostles) that ever mentioned the word trinity.

If you take the word 'we' directly, in english it could range from 2 to infinity. It's a metaphor. Besides, the angels might have helped him and i dare not make asumptions of God's work and creations.

The answering-islam site is pitiful so come up with your own debates, and don't for a second think that it has anything to do with trinity because in Islam the Holy Ghost is the chief of Angels Gabriel who was often sent to assist the prophets.

For example - He revealed to Adam the twenty-one leaves; taught him the cultivation of wheat, the working of iron ans so on. To Noah, he showed how to build the Ark. He saved Ibrahim from the flame. It is also Gabriel who helped Moses to fight against the magicians of Egypt. He was also instrumental in the destruction of Pharao's army in the Red Sea. He appeared to Samuel and Daud to whom he taught the art of making coats-of-mail. So does he assists Jesus and Muhammad.

I'll answer this question of yours this time, but unless you keep your questions original and not from the answering-islam website, i would not bother with yours any longer.

Your questions -

The Quran says, in Sura 23:14 and Sura 37:125 that Allah is "the Best of Creators

My reply -

As-saaffat 37:125

"Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators,-

Mumenoon 23:14

Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

'Creators' mentioned in those versus clearly states that Allah is without any reasonable doubt is the best creator and no other beings, be it the angels or human beings will never ever be be able to create anthing better than Allah.

Humans are known to create things when civilisations evolves through time and we have these we call materials nowadays, if god does not gives us brains we'll surely will still be living in caves and eating raw meats.

Your question -

"Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation.

My reply -

This verse is indeed very interesting because it is one of the many 'eye opener' versus because it even makes the scientists raises their eyebrows.

Read this article :

Dr. Keith Moore of the University of Toronto was amazed to find that many modern discoveries in the field of embryology must have been known to the author of the Qur'an, for these facts are either hinted at or stated explicitly in the Qur'an. This is particularly significant because the Qur'an claims to be the verbatim word of God. How could these facts have been known to any human being living in the 7th century? The presence of these in the Qur'an is proof enough that the Qur'an did not come from the mind of any human but must have been revealed from God whose knowledge is perfect and who therefore, knew what scientists will discover in the 20th century.

Dr. Moore is not the only scientist to have discussed the Qur'anic verses we will look at in this article. But the fact that he is not a Muslim puts what he has to say in a different light. No one can accuse him of inventing things to defend Islam. His findings will have to be taken seriously by any seeker of truth. In what follows we shall draw from his article entitled "Highlights of Human Embryology in the Koran and the Hadith" which was presented at the Seventh Saudi Medical Meeting at King Faisal University on May 3-6, 1982. At the time, Dr. Moore was Professor of Anatomy and Chairman of the Department, Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Toronto

In tracing the history of ideas in the field of embryology, Dr. Moore observed that the absence of knowledge in this field and the "dominating influence of superstition resulted in a non-scientific approach to human development." He noted, for instance, that while Aristotle made some contributions to the study of embryology, he also promoted "the incorrect idea that the human embryo developed from a formless mass that resulted from the union of semen with menstrual blood."

Knowledge in this field could not progress significantly until the microscope was discovered in the 17th century. "After it was possible to examine cells under the microscope, it was reasoned in the 18th century that development resulted from growth and differentiation of embryonic cells."

In view of the above, after Dr. Moore had the opportunity to study certain statements in the Qur'an and statements of the Prophet (on whom be peace) in the Hadith literature, he remarked, "I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century A.D."

"The staging of human embryos was not proposed until the 1940's, and the stages used nowadays were not adopted worldwide until a few years ago."

It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as:

    * the mother's abdominal wall;
    * the wall of the uterus; and
    * the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion.

These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

The whole process, Al-qur-an 23:12-16

And certainly We created man of an extract of clay, Then We made him a small seed in a firm resting-place, Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. Then after that you will most surely die. Then surely on the day of resurrection you shall be raised.

Referring to the above verses in the Qur'an, Dr. Keith Moore says:

"This verse from the Koran states that God made you from a drop and then changed the drop into a leech-like structure which soon changed into a chewed like substance that then took the shape of bone and was clothed with flesh."

To illustrate his point about the accuracy of the Qur'an, Dr. Moore lined up a picture of a leech and a picture of a human embryo at 24 days old to show the striking similarity between the two. Similarly, he compared the human embryo at 28 days with a plasticine model of the embryo with teeth marks deliberately impressed on it and found the two to be quite Similar.

There are more versus which tells us the whole process from the  process of semens till the baby is borned told in the Qur-an. Now how on earth would a 1424 year old verse would describe the very details of embriology if it's not from the true words of our creator Allah.

[ Last edited by Jukebox on 14-12-2003 at 12:50 AM ]
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 14-12-2003 06:46 AM | Show all posts
>> McDim and KAveCee are halal and unless you could prove otherwise then shut your trap cause you don't have the slightest idea of what your talkin about. PERIOD!
<<

i have provided you with a whole article about the hundreds of chemicals in mcDimwits fries but u have chosen well to shut your brains.  
If u believe it is halal who am i to argue.


>>If you take the word 'we' directly, in english it could range from 2 to infinity. It's a metaphor. Besides, the angels might have helped him and i dare not make asumptions of God's work and creations.<<<

well this proves YOU HAVE NO CONCRETE ANSWER. i.e speculation about the 'WE'. Like u say it must be a metaphor. You demand your pound of flesh looking for contradictions and when we found one in the quran - you say it must be a metaphor.
Couldn't the verse have been easily wriiten as 'I' and not 'We'. God needing aNgels to help out with his creation is absurd.
...................
eventhough i have doubts about the concept of trinity (of course trinity is a short-nick for plurarism and couldn't be directly found but various verse attest to it) but never the less it is scriptura and can be found in the old/new testament

God is one (Deut. 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:4). The one God has the aspect of three梩he Father, the Son, and the Spirit (Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19).
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit coexist simultaneously (Matt. 3:16-17) from eternity to eternity.
The Father is God (Eph. 1:17; 4:6). The Son is God (Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5). The Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).
The Father is eternal (Isa. 9:6). The Son is eternal (Heb. 1:11-12; 7:3). The Spirit is eternal (Heb. 9:14).
The Father, Son, and Spirit coinhere and are inseparable (John 14:10-11; 8:29; 14:26; 15:26; Matt. 10:20).
The Three梩he Father, the Son, and the Spirit梐re one (Isa. 9:6; John 10:30; 2 Cor. 3:17).

The Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit


God exists in three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible, it expresses a scriptural truth; in fact, it was coined by one of the early Latin Christian writers to set forth the truth that God is a Tri-unity of Persons.
   The term Godhead (Godhood) refers to God's essence or divine Being; and is a proper statement of truth to say that there are three Persons in the Godhead.
   The Old Testament emphasizes the unity of God; that is, it asserts that there is but one God, in contrast to the many false gods of the heathen; nevertheless, there are intimations in the Old Testament of the fact that God exists in a plurality or Trinity of Persons. For example, the Spirit of God is mentioned in Genesis 1:2; the Son is mentioned in Psalm 2:7, 12; and there are plural expressions in a number of places which show that God is a Trinity.
   "And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).    The New Testament, while fully recognizing the unity of God, emphasizes the fact of the three Persons.



..................................................................................................


I have another 50 contradictions and questions about the quran but i reckon it would be futile to paste it here as we would probably be running around in circles.
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Post time 15-12-2003 08:57 PM | Show all posts
your reply -
i have provided you with a whole article about the
hundreds of chemicals in mcDimwits fries but u have
chosen well to shut your brains. If u believe it is
halal who am i to argue.


What article about the McD???? Paste the article to
make your point man. And can't you spell correctly of
the name of companies that you are accusing?

If you have a case, then i'll make sure it goes to the
authorities that slaps the HALAL sticker here in M抯ia
and together with your accusations towards the McD
(email or pm me together with your full details). Why
are you afraid to spell their name correctly if you
are so righteous in your claims? Lets make it legal
and we go the whole 9 yards. What do you say?

your reply
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Post time 15-12-2003 08:59 PM | Show all posts
your reply
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Post time 16-12-2003 09:32 PM | Show all posts
49. Adultery forbidden
          Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
         Adultery allowed
          Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

     50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
          Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
         Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
          Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

     51. A man may marry his brother's widow
          Deut 25:5
         A man may not marry his brother's widow
          Lev 20:21
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 17-12-2003 06:46 AM | Show all posts
LEV 20:21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

Deuteronomy 25
5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her.
---



look JUKES, i am no ancient israeli mosaic law expert but clearly there is some sort of qualification as to how u could marry your brother's wife. the verse are self explanatory above. In ancient times because of resource limitations - you must marry your brother's widowed wife same goes for your law of allowing you to marry 4 so you could take care of wives who has lost their husband in battle.
TODAY - this ancient law of marrying 4 should be ABOLISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
says who? sayz ME!!! says I !!! simple math - if everyone grabs 4 - will there be enough women to go around???


read the thread on
* BEING TOO  RELIGIOUS http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=79978

Stop harping on issues such as what should i wear, eat, drink, marry.... as for the rest of your verses about Jesus - exposing him as frail, weak and human... yessss, all those verses only prove one thing - Jesus was indeed human. A human sacrificeD.
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whitepig This user has been deleted
Post time 17-12-2003 07:02 AM | Show all posts
Jukes, i have already warned you about opening your can of maggots.

Here's how the story start....

1)He wanted to get rich by starting a religion. The first problem he would face would be attracting followers who already believe in other religions. One way to do this would be to say that he accept their prophet and their bible but that he is a prophet too. He wouldn't want his followers to be convinced by their Jewish and Christian friends to leave the faith so he tell them: -O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

There might be members of his religion who wish to leave. He will terrify them into staying by instructing his followers: -Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him! [Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)]

-He will also threaten them with burning in the eternal fires of hell.
Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. [Koran 22:19-22:23]


One way to increase his wealth and power would be to conquer the infidels who dare not honor him as their prophet. He will instruct his followers:
-Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. [Koran 9:5]

If he wanted revenge against those who refuse to accept his fake religion, he will become totally ruthless and vicious sicko and he will tell his followers to torture the non-believer. He says: -Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. [Koran 69:30-37]

and -I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. [Koran 8:12]

and-They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. [Koran 5:33]


The problem with encouraging his followers to attack the infidel is that the non-believing infidel is likely to defend himself. That might deter his followers from attacking. He will give them the incentive of sex and booty by saying that it's fine with Allah if his followers have sex with the captured women and keep them as slaves and that his followers can keep whatever booty they seize.-33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you ... the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
-The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause ... will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) -[Hadith sahih bukhari, Vol 1 book 2 number 35]

Still the risk of death might deter some of his followers. As the brilliant and evil man he might think of and carry out the following ingenious solution to the problem. He will tell his followers that they will go to paradise if they die fighting for the faith. He will complete the previous sentence as follows :-
-[Hadith sahih bukhari, Vol 1 book 2 number 35]
The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause ... will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).


and remind your followers that:
-"Know that paradise is under the shades of swords." [Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55]


So tell us what it is like to be in paradise his followers might ask. He will say that those who enter paradise will enjoy: -"abundant fruits, unforbidden, never-ending." There will be "gushing fountains" and everyone "shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine." [Suras (or chapters) 55 and 56 of the Quran]


That might not be enough to convince his lusty male followers to risk death in battle so he will tell them some even more thrilling aspects of Paradise. he will tell them: -"Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies," [sura 55]. A few lines later, He will remind them of "virgins chaste and fair ... they shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets."


By now he already have a rapt audience of eager male listeners. How many virgins are there for a man who dies for Allah an eager follower asks?
-Why the smallest reward for every believer who is admitted to Paradise is 72 wives. The proof is in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on "The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah," Chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise," Hadith 2687). The Tafsir of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: mentions servants as well "It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim that Abu-al-Haytham Abdullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad saying:
'The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a.'"


What if you are surrounded by all those women but can't do it. Don't worry.
-[tirmidhi, vol. 2 states on p.138]
A man in paradise shall be given virility equal to that of one hundred men.


Congratulations. Now he have men eager to kill and die for him. The problem is he have to deliver on the promise of the booty and yet he want it. -So tell them that since Allah granted victory the spoils belong to him and one fifth should go to his prophet (himself lar..) and let them have the rest [Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52 Number 46 8:41]


What if his followers want to rape their captive women? If he want them to kill for him, it would be wise to satisfy their sexual desires and to sanction rape -so he tell them that Allah decrees that they can rape their captives [Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3371]


Congratulations, they are killing the infidel right and left and he is getting wealthy off the booty. But wait a minute. He could be making more money. What good do a lot of dead non-believers do for him? Wouldn't it be better if they all paid taxes? He don't want the non-believer killed, he want them enslaved. So he will tell his  followers:-Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. [Koran 9.29]


As he became rich other people might get the idea to declare that they are prophets too. They might even copy his tactics and threaten those who don't believe in them with hell. If such tactics worked for him it might work for them too. Then there'll be less money for him. Their followers might even become a threat to him. Not a problem. Just declare that he is  the last prophet.
-[Abu dawood, vol 2 p.228; Tirmidhi vol 2 p.45]
In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me.
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Post time 17-12-2003 11:18 AM | Show all posts
Hey whitepig.....i replied earlier in 2 pages for our earlier debates and what was your reply in return???

your reply ---
about Jesus - exposing him as frail, weak and human... yessss, all those verses only prove one thing - Jesus was indeed human. A human sacrificeD


Is that all you have to say in defend of your trinity doctrine? define a human sacrified....

Don worry about the can of maggots as i'll have the answers for them insya Allah but first lets settle each debate before we move on or should we consider that you don't actually have an answer for my replies? And you want to avoid answering by postings verses in the Qur'an and Hadith for me to answer?
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SFE talk This user has been deleted
Post time 17-12-2003 11:29 AM | Show all posts
Would a frail and weak man walked willingly to be tortured and sacrificed for others?
Jesus predicted his betrayal, trial and crucifixion remember? Or have you never read the Bible?
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Post time 17-12-2003 11:41 PM | Show all posts
Another question for you whitepig, since you've agreed that Jesus was only a man.....the doctrine seems to be somewhat questionable right?

Originally posted by SFE talk at 17-12-2003 11:29 AM:
Would a frail and weak man walked willingly to be tortured and sacrificed for others?
Jesus predicted his betrayal, trial and crucifixion remember? Or have you never read the Bible?



Who ever said that he was frail and weak as a man when he was about to be sentenced, he's one of Allah's prophet...he knows that Allah is his saviour.

An-Nisaa 4

155 - (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant; that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe.

156 - That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Maryam a grave false charge;

157 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

158 -  Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

159 -  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.

Where in the bible or in this particular verse says that he knew of his trial and crucification?

John 18: 4   Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

[ Last edited by Jukebox on 17-12-2003 at 11:53 PM ]
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Post time 18-12-2003 11:21 PM | Show all posts
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
          Luke 14:26
         Hatred to kindred condemned
          Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

     53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
          Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
         Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
          Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

     54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers   
         and punish evil doers only
          Rom 13:1-3,6
         It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the  
         good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
          Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
           Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
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