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The First Commandment is that God is One. Jesus is not GOD!
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Question to "me"
The understanding of the ONEness of the True GOD is the highest principal of Muslim belief, and I believe that Trinity Christians say they share the same principal.
I believe that God is one and without any partners, and:
- He has no sharers in His essence, attributes, actions, or rulings. He is the sole Creator of all that exists, has existed, and will ever exist. Everything other than Him is His creation.
- He alone controls all events, causes, and effects, and no power exists independently of His power. Nothing happens outside of His will, neither before He willed it, nor after He willed it, neither more than what He willed, nor less than what He willed.
If you are agree to the above understanding and principal of the ONEness of God Almighty, I would like to ask you few question:
1. If God willing to pardon us our "sins",
a. Wouldn't we broke the concept of God above by believing Him converted to "His Creation" just because He wants to "save" or pardon His creation which He should did it straight away?
Please note the keyword are "willing" and "straight away"
b. Would it be so much hassle for God to "save" His creation if He is willing to do it?
Please note the keyword is "save"
2. Who is the saviour?
a. God or Jesus? If God=Jesus, where is the proof (repeating Sonny's question)
b. If God=Jesus, mind to check the above concept again?
[ Last edited by kid on 9-12-2004 at 12:10 AM ] |
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60 Questions :hmm:......http://www.themodernreligion.com ... ble_60questions.htm
60 Questions for the Christian
By Hussein Khalid Al-Hussein
According to most Christians, Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God. Can the finite and the infinite be one? "To be full" God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be "full man" means the absence of divinity.
1.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?
2.Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?
3.Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "savior". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God’s anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "savior", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?
4.Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones?
5.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?
6.If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?
7.If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?
8.If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?
9.Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F |
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HOLY SPIRIT:
The only place in the Bible where the Paraclete was called the Holy Spirit is in John 14:26 "But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". What has the Holy Spirit brought or taught for the last 2000 years?
26.Christians say that the Paraclete means the Holy Spirit (John 14;26). Jesus said in John 16:7-8 "If I do not go away the Paraclete will not come to you". This could not mean the Holy spirit, since the Holy spirit was said to have been there before Jesus was even born as in Luke 1:41 "Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit". Here, the Holy spirit was also present during Jesus life time. So how could this fit with the condition that Jesus must go away so that the Holy spirit will come?
27.In John 16:7-8, it says: "But if go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of sins and of righteousness and of Judgment". What do "he" and "him" refer here? Don’t they refer to a man?
28.Does the Holy Spirit talk to good Christians and bad Christians as well? Is the Holy spirit with them all the time or just at certain times? When does it start visiting a person who wants to become a Christian?
29.How can you as a Christian tell if the Holy Spirit is inside another Christian? How come many Christians fooled people by claiming that the Holy spirit was inside them only to be converted to another religion later on ?
30.Does the Holy Spirit dictate what Christians should do without choice or freedom at all or does it only guide them and they have the freedom to follow or not ?
31.If the Holy Spirit dictates what Christian should do, why do Christians commit sins and make mistakes ? How can you explain the conversion to other religions and atheism of many Christians? Are they told to do that by the Holy Spirit?
32.If the Holy Spirit guides Christians only, and they are free to do what they want, then how do we know that the writers of the Gospels didn’t make mistakes in writing them?
33.If Christians believe that the Holy Spirit comes and talks to them everyday, why don’t they ask the Holy Spirit about which version of the Bible to follow since there are too many versions floating around?
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MISSION OF JESUS:
Without borrowing from other religions and systems, can Christianity provide people with a complete way of life? Since Christianity is limited to spiritual life and does not provide law, how can a society decide which laws are right or wrong?
34.Why do the Christians say that Jesus came with a universal mission when he said that he was sent to the Jews only? He said to the Canaanite woman who asked him to heal her daughter from demon-possession: "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" and also said: "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs", Matthew 15:21-28.
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RESSURECTION:
If you read Matthew (28:1-10), Mark (16:1-20), Luke (24:1-12), and John (20: 1-18), you will find contradicting stories. They all agreed that the tomb was guarded for three days. However, they reported the discovery of the empty tomb differently.
Matthew (28) and John (20) reported that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were the first to discover the tomb.
Mark (16) reports that Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome were the first to discover the empty tomb.
Mark (28) reports that there was an earthquake that removed the rock from over the tomb. He says that an angel caused it. The other gospels do not mention of an earthquake.
Matthew and Mark say that only ONE man in white clothes was sitting on the tomb when the woman arrived, and that he was an angel.
Luke says that TWO men in white clothes, who were angels, were sitting. Johns says that the two women did not meet anybody the first time they came to the tomb, but when they returned, they saw TWO people, ONE was an ANGEL, and the other was JESUS.
Matthew reports that when the guards reported this to the chief priest, the chief priest paid them a large sum of money, telling them: "You have to say that his disciples came at night and stole his body." He claims that the soldiers took money and spread the story around and since then, the story had been circulating among the Jews until today (according to Matthew). The other gospels do not report of any such thing.
35. Which narration now is more authentic?
36.Why is the appearance of Jesus after the crucifixion taken as a proof of his resurrection when there is an explanation that he was not dead because someone else was crucified in his place when God saved Him?
37.How did Matthew know of the claimed agreement between the soldiers and the chief priest? Can’t someone say that someone paid the women a large sum of money and told them to spread the word around that Jesus rose from the dead, with the same authenticity as that of the story of Matthew?
38.Why did they believe that man in the white clothes? Why did they believe he was an angel? John’s narration is too strange, since he says that Mary did not recognize Jesus (one of the two) while talking to him, and she only recognized him when he called her by her name.
39.How does an empty tomb prove that Jesus was crucified ? Isn’t it that God is capable of removing another man from the tomb, and of resurrecting him too?
40.The Gospels are believed to be the verbatim words of God, they are supposed to be dictated by the Holy Spirit to the Disciples who wrote them. If the source were the same, why shouldn’t they correspond with each other in reporting such an important event?
41.How could Matthew, Mark, Luke and John be considered eyewitnesses of resurrection when the Bible implies that nobody at all saw Jesus coming out of the tomb?
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BIBLE:
If the Christians consider the Old Testament as God’s Word, why did they cancel the parts of the Old Testament that dealt with punishment (example: the punishment for adultery)?
42.Why doesn’t Mark 16:9-20 exist in as many versions of the Bible while it exists as a footnote or between brackets in some other versions? Is a footnote in the Bible still considered as God’s word, especially when it addresses an important feature like the Ascension?
43.Why does the Catholic Bible contain 73 books while the Protestant Bible has only 66? With both claiming to have the complete Word of God, which one should be believed and why?
44.Where do those new translations of the Bible keep coming from when the original Bible is not even available ? The Greek manuscripts which are translations themselves are not even similar with each other.
45.How can you take two gospels from writers who never met Jesus, like Mark and Luke?
46.Why is half of the New Testament written by a man who never even met Jesus in his lifetime? PAUL claimed with no proof that he had met Jesus while on his way from Jerusalem to Damascus. PAUL was the main enemy of Christianity. Isn’t that reason enough to question the authenticity of what he wrote? Why do the Christians call those books of the Old Testament "God’s Word" when the revisors of the RSV Bible say that some of the authors are UNKNOWN? They say that the author of SAMUEL is "UNKNOWN" and that of CHRONICLES is "UNKOWN, PROBABLY COLLECTED AND EDITED BY EZRA"! |
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CONTRADICTIONS:
47.Concerning the controversial issues in the Bible, how can Christians decide by two-thirds majority what is God’s Word and what is not, as the prefaces of some Bibles say like that one of the RSV ?
48.Why does Luke in his gospel report the Ascension on Easter Day, and in the Acts, in which he is recognized as the author, FORTY days later?
49.The genealogy of Jesus is mentioned in Matthew and Luke only. Matthew listed 26 forefathers from Joseph to David while Luke enumerated 41 forefathers. Only Joseph matches with Joseph in those two lists. Not a single other name matches! If these were inspired by God word by word, how could they be different? Some claim that one is for Mary and one is for Joseph, but where does it says Mary in those two Gospels?
50.If Moses wrote the first books of the Old Testament, how could Moses write his own obituary? Moses died in the fifth book at age 120 as mentioned in Deut. 34:5-10.
51.In the King James Version, why does it report SEVEN years of famine in II SAMUEL 24:13 while it reports THREE years of famine in I CHRONICLES 21:12? Why did they change both to THREE years in the New International Version and other versions?
52.Still In the same King James Version, why does it say that Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign in II CHRONICLES 21:12, while it says EIGHTEEN years in II KINGS 24:8? Why did thessey change in both to EIGHTEEN in the new Versions?
53.In all versions, why does it say that David slew the men of SEVEN HUNDRED chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand HORSEMEN as evidenced in II Samuel 10:18 while its says SEVEN THOUSAND men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand FOOTMEN, in I CHRONICLES 19:18?
54.In all versions, why does it report TWO thousand baths in I KINGS 7:26 while II CHRONICLES 4:5 reports THREE THOUSAND?
55.In the King James version, why does it report that Solomon had FOUR THOUSAND stalls for horses in II CHRONICLES 9:25 while it accounts that Solomon had FORTY THOUSAND stalls of horses in 1 KINGS 4:26? Why did they change both to FOUR THOUSAND in the new versions?
56.In GENESIS 1, God’s creation progresses from grass to trees to fowls, whales, cattle and creeping things and finally to man and woman. GENESIS 2, however, puts the creation of man before cattle and fowl and woman subsequent to beast. How can this be explained?
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QUR’AN AND CHRISTIANS
This section does not inquire or interrogate, but rather provides the reader with some of the Qur’anic verses that address the Christians in particular, and the people of the scripture in general. A great portion of the Qur’an pertains to or involves the Christians and the Jews and I decided to just choose verses that are related to the topic of this manuscript.
"Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then said unto him: Be, and he was." Al-Qur’an 3:59.
"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for Lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto him).
"O People of the Scripture! Why will you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?
Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
Lo! Those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and his Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protector of the believers.
A party of the People of the Scripture longs to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.
O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve you in the revelations of Allah, when you (yourselves) bear witness to their truth?
O People of the Scriptures! Why confound you truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the Truth? (Al-Qur’an 3: 64-71)
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him and in the hereafter, He will be one of the losers (Al-Qur’an 3:85).
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, and Allah’s messenger. They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them, and Lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain:
But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. (Al-Qur’an 4:157-158).
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter ought concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him, so believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three"! Cease! (it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as defender.
The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whosoever scorns His service and is proud, all such will assemble unto Him.
Then, as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will He give them their wages in full, adding unto them of His bounty; and as for those who were scornful and proud, then He will punish with a painful doom." (Al-Qur’an 4:171-173).
"And with those who say Lo! We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefore We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.
O People of the Scripture! Now has our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which you used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now has come unto light from Allah and plain scripture:
Whereby Allah guides him who seeks His good pleasure unto paths of peace, He brings them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guides them unto a Straight Path.
They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah if he had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah’s is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what he wills. And Allah is able to do all things. (Al-Qur’an 5:14:17). |
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"They surely disbelieve who say; Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O children if Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and you Lord. Lo! Whosoever ascribes partners unto Allah, for him Allah has forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evildoers ,there will be no helpers.
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of the three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying, a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.
Say: Serve you in place of Allah that which possesses for you neither hurt nor use? Allah is the Hearer, the Knower.
Say: O People of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other than the Truth, and follow not the vain desire of folks who erred of old and led many astray, and erred from a plain road." (Al-Qur’an 5:72-77)
"And when Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary: Did you say unto mankind: take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?, he says: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You Knew it, You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your mind. Lo! You, only You, are the knower of things hidden.
I spoke unto them only that which You commanded me (saying); worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me, You were the Watcher over them. You are witness over all things.
If You punish them, Lo! They are Your slaves, and if you forgive them (Lo! They are Your slaves). Lo! You, only you are the Mighty, the Wise.
Allah says: This is a day in which their truthfulness profits the truthful, for theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they are secure forever, Allah taking pleasure in them and they in Him. That is the great triumph. (Al-Qur’an 5:116-119)
"And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah’, and the Christians say: ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah’. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah fights against them. How perverse they are!
They have taken as Lord besides Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partners (unto him)!
Faint would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdains (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
He it is Who has sent His messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to cause it to prevail over all religions, however much the idolaters may be averse.
O you who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (people) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom.
On the Day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of Hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which you hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what you used to hoard." (Al-Qur’an 9:30-35).
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MUHAMMAD OR JESUS?
Christians claim that the prophecy in Deut. 18:18 refers to Jesus and not Muhammad. The verse says: "I will raise them up a prophet from among THEIR BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO THEE, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." The only reason they resort to such interpretation is that both Moses and Jesus were prophets. Even this one contradicts their claim that Jesus was God and not a Prophet. Many prophets of the Jews had the similarity with Moses. However, if we compare Muhammad to Moses, we will find that:
Muhammad was an Arab, and the Arabs are from Ishmael, son of Abraham, while Moses was a Jew, and the Jews are from Isaac, son of Abraham. Hence, the term THEIR BRETHREN refers to the children of the first son being brethren of the children of the other. This couldn’t apply to Jesus, since he was a Jew.
According to the Christians, Jesus went to Hell for three days while Moses did not. Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses. (In Islam, none of the three Prophets went to Hell)
Moses and Muhammad were born to fathers and mothers while Jesus was born to a mother alone.
Moses and Muhammad got married and had children, while Jesus did not marry at all.
Moses and Muhammad got problems and difficulties from their people initially, but were accepted by them at the end., whereas Jesus was rejected by his people at the start and is still rejected by the Jews until today. "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not".( John 1:11)
Moses and Muhammad had power, besides being prophets. They both performed some capital punishments, for example, while Jesus had no power over his people. "My kingdom is not of this world", Jesus said in John 18:36 .
Moses and Muhammad brought new laws while Jesus did not.
Moses was forced to emigrate in adulthood to Median while Muhammad was forced to emigrate at that stage in his life too, towards Madina . Whereas Jesus did not have such forced emigration in his adulthood .
Moses and Muhammad both died of natural deaths after which they were buried ,while the same could not be said of Jesus. He was neither killed nor crucified at all, according to the Qur’an and did not die a ‘natural’ death as could be affirmed by Christians who believe in Crucifixion.
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FINAL QUESTIONS:
57.Why won’t you, Christian reader, come to hear and learn of the true religion of Jesus?
58.Have you, as a Christian , learned of Islam and if so, was it from the true Muslims?
59.As a Christian, do you agree that out of fairness and honesty you must investigate what Islam says about God, Jesus, including this life and the hereafter?
60.Being a Christian, do you also believe that we must all stand accountable to our Creator and that the Creator is Perfect and Just? As a sincere believer in God, don’t you owe it upon yourself to find out the entire unadulterated truth regardless of the consequences?
Allah Knows Best...
Peace Yall.... |
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me This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by sonny~~ at 8-12-2004 04:47 PM:
o deceptive donkey
where in bible that teaches god wanna switch into man to save mankind from sins? where? 
peace
you haven't answer my question... |
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me This user has been deleted
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i just got one question for you...
why does god told islam to hate jews and christians?? |
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Question to "me"
The understanding of the ONEness of the True GOD is the highest principal of Muslim belief, and I believe that Trinity Christians say they share the same principal.
I believe that God is one and without any partners, and:
- He has no sharers in His essence, attributes, actions, or rulings. He is the sole Creator of all that exists, has existed, and will ever exist. Everything other than Him is His creation.
- He alone controls all events, causes, and effects, and no power exists independently of His power. Nothing happens outside of His will, neither before He willed it, nor after He willed it, neither more than what He willed, nor less than what He willed.
If you are agree to the above understanding and principal of the ONEness of God Almighty, I would like to ask you few question:
1. If God willing to pardon us our "sins",
a. Wouldn't we broke the concept of God above by believing Him converted to "His Creation" just because He wants to "save" or pardon His creation which He should did it straight away?
Please note the keyword are "willing" and "straight away"
b. Would it be so much hassle for God to "save" His creation if He is willing to do it?
Please note the keyword is "save"
2. Who is the saviour?
a. God or Jesus? If God=Jesus, where is the proof (repeating Sonny's question)
b. If God=Jesus, mind to check the above concept again? |
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me This user has been deleted
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1. If God willing to pardon us our "sins",
a. Wouldn't we broke the concept of God above by believing Him converted to "His Creation" just because He wants to "save" or pardon His creation which He should did it straight away?
Please note the keyword are "willing" and "straight away"
do you know human? god knows...
pardon His creation which He should did it straight away?
no...that is in islam...do sin...then beg for god to be pardoned...then do sin again...then beg again...
b. Would it be so much hassle for God to "save" His creation if He is willing to do it?
have you seen the movie' passion of the christ'?? or maybe the pirated cd?? or read the real story about jesus?? guess not... if you believe then you'll understand... |
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Originally posted by me at 10-12-2004 08:45 AM:
no...that is in islam...do sin...then beg for god to be pardoned...then do sin again...then beg again...
In Islam every born child who came out in this world is totally pure and sinless just like a white canvas before you paint the colour there, in Islam no sin without prior action and intention. Nobody will bear other people sin, everybody entitled and responsible to his own act. We are the one who paint our own colour on that canvas, not somebody else. If one commited sin, he should seek forgiveness from God and refrain himself from doing the same in the future. God is the Most Merciful, God knows the intention in the heart of every man, if one commit sin without he even realised it, InsyaAllah God will forgive him. If he realise what he was doing is sinful and he ignore God, he is entitled to the pusnishment promised by God
While the concept in Christian, every born child have sinned, the sin which was committed thousand years and years ago (maybe more) by the father of men, the sin which was a direct result committed by Adam. Thus Jesus have to sacrifice by dead on the cross to bear this sins from mankind because he loves us all. (Hence nobody should be worry about sins anymore forever... correct or not?)
Now the reason why the Christian doctrine of original sin in false:
1. It makes sin a misfortune rather than a wrong doing.
2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than responsible for his sins.
3. It makes God responsible for sin.
4. It dishonors God. It makes Him arbitrary, and unjust.
5. It causes ministers to excuse sin.
6. It begets a low standard of religion.
Now THINK!.
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In Islam every born child who came out in this world is totally pure and sinless just like a white canvas before you paint the colour there, in Islam no sin without prior action and intention.
Yes, every child is born sinless, but the child grows up and can't help but sin right? Why?
Nobody will bear other people sin, everybody entitled and responsible to his own act.
Thats not true. Mohamad condemn Jews and chaged Muslims to despise Jews for what their anbcestor salledgely did. So in effect, Islam does beleive in people bearing the sin of their ancestors.
We are the one who paint our own colour on that canvas, not somebody else. If one commited sin, he should seek forgiveness from God and refrain himself from doing the same in the future. God is the Most Merciful, God knows the intention in the heart of every man, if one commit sin without he even realised it, InsyaAllah God will forgive him. If he realise what he was doing is sinful and he ignore God, he is entitled to the pusnishment promised by God
But the problem is, Muslims sin again and again. So what is the use of pardon? Isn't allah then very studpid and easily manipulated so yu can sin again?
Besides, why is lying on sin in islam? why is terrorism rewarded with virgins?
While the concept in Christian, every born child have sinned, the sin which was committed thousand years and years ago (maybe more) by the father of men, the sin which was a direct result committed by Adam.
There is no such concept in Christianity my dear sir. Yu have been deceived by muslim polemics.
Thus Jesus have to sacrifice by dead on the cross to bear this sins from mankind because he loves us all. (Hence nobody should be worry about sins anymore forever... correct or not?)
Again not true.
If yu bear your own sins, yu will end up in hell cos God is not only merciuful, but also holy. God can't stand sin like allah who tolerates sin.
Now the reason why the Christian doctrine of original sin in false:
1. It makes sin a misfortune rather than a wrong doing.
2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than responsible for his sins.
3. It makes God responsible for sin.
4. It dishonors God. It makes Him arbitrary, and unjust.
5. It causes ministers to excuse sin.
6. It begets a low standard of religion.
I'm sorry to say, your concept of Christianity is not true. Those are not the teachings of our religion. The real problem is, Muslim polemics love to corruptv the undersatnding of Christianity among Muslims so that a diostorted picture exists in their minds. Unfortunately, brother kid has been fooled.
On the contrary, the islamic concept is flawed and evil. Here's why.
The alledge that :
1. Allah created man as he is, including the tendency to sin.
2. Allah puts man on this earth to test him.
3. If man passes test, he goes to heaven, if man fails, he goes to hell.
4. At the same time, allah does not make clear how he decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Thats why Muslism are unsure of salvation and always says only allah knows cos they don't.
In effect, that would make allah a gladiator master who places man in a gladiator arena on purpose to watch who passes and who fails. This is the most evil god imaginable.
Imagine this, people are palced in environments which they did not choose but have to suffer and sin cos allah made the world & man so prone to sin. He then punishes them if they don't pass the test and at the same time be vague on how to gain eteernal salvation from mankind.
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http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_tri.htm
Trinitarian scholars admit it!
Taken from the book, "What did Jesus Really Say?"
In "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" (Bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating official approval) we get a glimpse of how the concept of the Trinity was not introduced into Christianity until close to four hundred years after Jesus (pbuh):
".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development" (emphasis added). "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" Volume XIV, p. 295.
They admit it! Jesus' twelve apostles lived and died never having heard of any "Trinity"!
Did Jesus leave his closest and dearest followers so completely and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the "true" nature of God? Did he leave them in such black darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children's children would ever come to recognize the "true" nature of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece together the nature of the One whom they are to worship? Why did Jesus never, even once, just say "God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"? If he had only chosen to make just one such explicit statement to them he could have relieved Christianity of centuries of bitter disputes, division, and animosity.
Tom Harpur writes in his book "For Christ's Sake": "What is most embarrassing for the church is the difficulty of proving any of these statements of dogma from the new Testament documents. You simply cannot find the doctrine of the Trinity set out anywhere in the Bible. St. Paul has the highest view of Jesus' role and person, but nowhere does he call him God. Nor does Jesus himself anywhere explicitly claim to be the second person in the Trinity, wholly equal to his heavenly Father. As a pious Jew, he would have been shocked and offended by such an Idea....(this is) in itself bad enough. But there is worse to come. This research has lead me to believe that the great majority of regular churchgoers are, for all practical purposes, tritheists. That is, they profess to believe in one God, but in reality they worship three.."
In "The Dictionary of the Bible," John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899 bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read: "the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief."
And also:
"According to orthodox Christian doctrine, God is one nature in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No one of them precedes or created the others or stands above them in power or dignity. In precise theological terms, they are one in substance (or essence), coeternal, and coequal. The doctrine so stated does not appear in Scripture, … The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity was hammered out gradually over a period of three centuries or more…Unsurprisingly, perhaps, the coeternity and coequality of the divine persons remained a matter of theological dispute, and so are frequently discussed in the context of heresy… In 381 the bishops convened again at Constantinople and set forth the orthodox doctrine in its final form" A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature, David Lyle Jeffrey, p. 785
"Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon … While the New Testament writers say a great deal about God, Jesus, and the Spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do."The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, p. 782
"In the Old Testament, the Unity of God was clearly affirmed. The Jewish creed, repeated in every synagogue today, was 'Hear, 0 Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord (Deut. 6:4). This was the faith of the first Christians, so Paul writes, 'There is one God and Father of all, Who is above all and through all and in you all" (Eph. 4:6). But gradually some addition or modification of this creed was found necessary. Christians were fully persuaded of the Deity of Jesus Christ and later of the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and they were compelled to relate these convictions with their belief in the Unity of God. During many years, the problem was discussed and many explanations were attempted. One advanced by Sabellius, that became fairly popular was that Christ and the Holy Spirit were successive manifestations of the Supreme Being, but finally, the belief prevailed that the words Father, Son, Spirit, declared eternal distinctions in the Godhead. That is, that the Trinity of Manifestation revealed a Tri-unity of Being. In other words,' that Christ and the Holy Spirit were coeternal with the Father. With the exceptions of the Unitarians, this is the belief of Christendom today" Christadelphianism, F. J. Wilkin, M.A., D.D, The Australian Baptist, Victoria.
Amazing! In spite of his belief in the doctrine of the "trinity," Mr. Wilkin has just himself admitted that the doctrine should not be sought after in the Bible, nor did the disciples of Jesus preach it, and that those who accepted it did not get it from the Bible, rather they started out with their own preconceived concepts and then did their best to make the Bible endorse their preconceptions, and finally, that it was only "adopted" by the Church after many years of contention and experimentation, because members were "fully persuaded of the Deity of Jesus Christ, and later of the Deity of the Holy Spirit."
When Jesus was on earth, Judaism was the only purely monotheistic religion in the region, having become surrounded by endless waves of "trinities" from the surrounding nations of the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians and Egyptians. So, why did Jesus (pbuh) chose to allow the very first generations after him to remain steeped in ignorance and division, to live and die never having heard of any "trinity," and only choose to bring enlightenment to the creed-writers and neo-platonic philosophers of the fourth century CE?
The Encyclopaedia Britannica states under the heading "Trinity": "in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament,… The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is 'of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,' even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."
Let us conclude this section with a very eloquent example which was once presented by the British scholar Richard Porson. One day, Porson was discussing the "Trinity" with a Trinitarian friend when a buggy containing three men passed by.
"There," Porson's friend exclaimed "is an illustration of the Trinity."
Porson replied "No, you must show me one man in three buggies, if you can."
Allah Knows Best.... |
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Missionary Traps for Muslims
by Macksood Aftab
Managing Editor of The Islamic Herald
The Islamic Herald, April 1996
Part 1: Faith and Works
One of the basic arguments raised by non-Muslims, especially Christians, against Islam concerns the concept of salvation. They say that in Christianity, one is saved by faith, whereas in Islam one must earn their salvation through good deeds.
Unfortunately, many Muslims fall into the trap of defending the position imposed on them by these non-Muslims. This then provides the Christians with a basis for their entire Jesus-Father-Crucifixion-Salvation framework. They then go on to argue that salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned. But if the true Islamic concept is made clear, the Christian has no basis to attack Islam.
Many times, Muslims fail to realize that the Islamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith.
In the dozens of times Allah (SWT) talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds."
Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works.
When one converts to Islam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed (SAW) is his last messenger.
Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of iman, or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's iman or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.
One of the more popular hadiths of the Prophet (SAW) states, "All actions are based upon intentions," implying that the purpose, intent, or iman behind your action is what you get rewarded for; the actual action is really a consequence of the belief.
Another hadith states,
"A man came to the Prophet (SAW) and asked,
'When will the day of judgment come?'
The Prophet (SAW) replied, 'What have you prepared for the judgment day that you are so concerned for it?'
He replied, 'I do not have any good deeds in my account, but I do have one thing: I love Allah and His Messenger (SAW).'
The Prophet (SAW) then said, 'In that case, do not worry; you will be with those whom you love.'" (Agreed Upon).
This hadith also confirms the Islamic position of placing aqeedah and belief before actions. For example, Allah (SWT) says in various parts of the Quran, "The believers you will find praying..."
He does not say the people who are praying are believers. It is the belief that brings about the action, but the converse is not always true. Another hadith of the Prophet (SAW) states, "Unless one loves Allah and Allah's Messenger more than one's own self his iman is not complete."
Part 2: The Bible
Another misunderstanding Muslims often fall into concerns the Bible. Christian missionaries in almost every discussion of the Quran assert that the Quran asks Muslims to believe in the Bible as a revelation of God.
Many Muslims tend to fall into this trap by saying that "we believe in the Bible as revealed book."
Once the Muslim accepts this fact, the evangelist can point out that the Bible contradicts the Quran and that since the Bible has precedence over the Quran and since Muslims are required to believe in it, it therefore logically follows that the Bible is right and the Quran is wrong.
But the Quran says no such thing. There is no reference to the Bible in the Quran whatsoever.
The Quran mentions the Taurat and the Injil.
The Taurat is the book given to prophet Moses. This is not the equivalent of the Torah/Pentateuch of the Jews and Christians, since much of it was not written by prophet Moses. And the Taurat is definitely not the Old Testament since the OT includes dozens of books attributed to other prophets before Jesus.
The Injil is translated as the Gospel revealed to prophet Jesus. This is not the New Testament. The New Testament is a collection of 4 biographies of Christ, 27 epistles of St. Paul, and other books on the lives and adventures on the followers of Christ.
There is no record of a book revealed to Jesus. Perhaps the closest to it are the words of Jesus himself, which constitues less than 10% of the NT. Therefore to say that Christians changed the Bible is an inaccurate statement, and can cause trouble in a discussion, because the Christian can then ask questions such as: Who changed the Bible? When exactly was it changed? How do you know it was changed if you don't have a copy of the original?
The Bible, or at least the New Testament, cannot be an altered copy of the Injil because it is a completely different book. In fact, the original Bible or New Testament (the very first one) did not correspond to the Injil, Taurat, or Zabur in the first place. It doesn't matter how unreliably it was transmitted; the Bible does not correspond to the Quranic Injil.
It is not that the Christians have changed the original, but rather they have the wrong book, altogether. The words of Christ are possibly the closest thing to the Injil. The recently discovered Gospel of Thomas, which is nothing but a list of sayings of Jesus, is even closer to the Islamic concept of Injil.
Therefore, it should be kept in mind in discussion with Christians that the Bible has not been changed, but rather the original documents chosen as the word of God were incorrect.
Allah Knows Best...
Peace Yall... |
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Thanks for bringing Macksood Aftab's materials here. He got clobbered by me many years ago. He just couldn't reply when confronted by hard evidence of fraud on his website. The truth is, Masood never did his own research, he merely regurgitate materaisl from other muslim polemics just like what aenemy7 is doing? Both of them never did their own reeesearch. I bet you they don't even have a copy of the Bible at hand.
cheers
BTW, let me rebut just one point from Masood.
Part 1: Faith and Works
One of the basic arguments raised by non-Muslims, especially Christians, against Islam concerns the concept of salvation. They say that in Christianity, one is saved by faith, whereas in Islam one must earn their salvation through good deeds.
Thats right sir, salvation comes only thru faith and not works.
If salvation indeed come by works and faith isn't necessary, then there is no need for God to gain salvation. You don't need to be a Muslim then. Ahahahahahahahaha..........
Also, if works gains yu salvation, how much is enough? You see how silly & vague islam is concerning salvation? Its no wonder Muslims have no peace and joy.
cheers |
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Debmey wrote:
Yes, every child is born sinless
So where you throw your "original sin"?
Islam does beleive in people bearing the sin of their ancestors.
So funny... it is you Christian who believe it.
Muslims sin again and again. So what is the use of pardon?
Really I dont get what you meant by that. Of course we would commit sin either minor and major during our entire life, thousand of possibility if you want the list of sins. With so many things in life, your wrong doing to your parents, your treatment to your friends, your ignorance to God, your crime etc..... That's why we ask forgiveness from God from time to time! How could be someone so perfect and only commit sin once and never commit sin again? Is that what Christian taught you? Gosh...
There is no such concept in Christianity (original sin) my dear sir.
What? :lol |
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me This user has been deleted
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Originally posted by aenemy7 at 11-12-2004 03:11 AM:
Missionary Traps for Muslims
by Macksood Aftab
Managing Editor of The Islamic Herald
The Islamic Herald, April 1996
Part 1: Faith and Works
One of the basic arguments ...
oh crap... |
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but it's interesting huh???:lol
Allah Knows Best...
Peace Yall... |
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Originally posted by sonny~~ at 2004-12-8 01:15 PM:
o deceptive donkey
commonsense gonna tell u no god almighty wanna switch into man to save mankind from their sins. thats dumb
peace Originally posted by me at 2004-12-8 02:45 PM:
why?? Originally posted by me at 2004-12-9 08:12 AM:
you haven't answer my question...
n ur question is why commonsense gonna tell u no god almighty wanna switch into man to save mankind from their siins. rite?
simple answer really. u dont have commonsense to rationalize things logically. thats why
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Originally posted by kid at 2004-12-11 04:08 AM:
So where you throw your "original sin"?
hehe
bro deb***sfe is trapped by his own hecklin agin
he believes jesus is god to save mankind from original sins
while other trinity followers believe jesus is god to save mankind from general sins
now the trinity thing is twisted this way n that way n this way n that way. o boy
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So where you throw your "original sin"?
I don't see any term such as original sin in the Bible. Can you please show me?
Islam does beleive in people bearing the sin of their ancestors.
So funny... it is you Christian who believe it.
So why diud Mo charge Muslims to hate Jews blaming them for killing preophets of old? Isn't that then blaming Jews for the alledged sin of their ancestors?
You see, I floored yu so bad that you avoided my question altogether and start playing denial.
Really I dont get what you meant by that. Of course we would commit sin either minor and major during our entire life, thousand of possibility if you want the list of sins. With so many things in life, your wrong doing to your parents, your treatment to your friends, your ignorance to God, your crime etc..... That's why we ask forgiveness from God from time to time! How could be someone so perfect and only commit sin once and never commit sin again? Is that what Christian taught you? Gosh...
So why does your allah pardon you? So that yu can go sin again? What for?
Why don't yu ask for forgiveness then at the end of your life?
Aren't yu muslims then hypocrites? |
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Post time 8-12-2004 11:37 PM
