Isu Agama Syiah serta persoalan Akidah dan Feqah ... [split topik]
This is actually a split topic. For readers who want to know the background of the issue should read this thread first.http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=369381&extra=page%3D1
Since the topic has been splited, it抯 wise for me to give a brief intro so that new readers may not be confused and regard me as the one who tries to provoke or challenges Sunni mazhab esp. Shafie here with my daring example (agama Shafie) to prove that syiah is actually not agama. Anyways, If you follow this discourse with patience till the end, inshaallah, you will see that I抦 far from accusing Mazhab Shafie as Agama Shafie. The main reason why I force myself to be here is that I want to prove that the following statement made my Triple 8 is misleading and rubbish.
Agama Syiah dan marjaienya yang flexibel
Syiah adalah sebuah agama samawi yang sungguh unik. Ia adalah sebuah agama yang flexibel, boleh berubah mengikut peredaran zaman dan keadaan semasa. Perkara yang flexibel dalam agama syiah bukan setakat soal feqah, tapi termasuk juga soal akidah, berbeza dengan ahli sunnah yang hanya flexibel dalam soal feqah sahaja tapi tidak akidah.
Penganut-penganut ajaran syiah berbangga dengan keflexibelan agama mereka di depan ahli sunnah, bagi mereka, disebabkan perkara inilah agama mereka tidak jumud, tidak seperti katak di bawah tempurung dan tidak ketinggalan zaman. Mereka juga merendah-rendahkan ahli sunnah kerana mendakwa agama mereka jumud dan ketinggalan zaman, bagi mereka,ini zaman orang bawa kereta, bukan naik unta.
Apakah resipi rahsia keunikan agama syiah? Ya, ia adalah marjaie. Marjaie adalah satu golongan yang didakwa mempunyai kuasa untuk merombak dan menggubal agama syiah, termasuk dalam hal-ehwal akidah.
He accused shia as Agama as if shia is out of Islam, contrary to general belief that both Sunni and Shia are considered muslims as their religion is one i.e. Islam. Furthermore, I try to show that his understanding of the words 慳kidah Originally posted by nahzaluz at 9-9-2008 02:57 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
just tell us the truth. What is your aqedah exactly. plz declare here if you're in comfort right now. we just want to know who we are talking to. when we talk to bill, grave, syaikh, we know their aqedah (and it's better for us if we know their marjie') when we talk to you it's not enough to know that you're a muslim only he he
It doesn't make much different if I tell you my actual aqeedah... I'm here neither to make friends nor enemies, just to fulfill my obligation as muslim to tell the truth according to my understanding. But If u want to know my background.. I would say I have been living in shia, sunni and ahmadiya communities long enough (years) to know their believes. I learnt from their scholars directly eventhough I'm not into this "religious" business to be "ustaz" or islamic scholar.
Sometimes, don't be fooled by me. When it comes to discussion/debate, I have many caps to wear. But don't worry, I'm consistent when wearing a certain cap (nickname). I can be a shia, sunni, ahmadi, or even anti-hadith. Never be a wahabi yet. I do it just for the sake of discussion or academic couriosity. :D
[ Last edited byJieShiang at 9-9-2008 06:11 PM ] OK. Kalau betul agama Syiah ni adalah satu agama yang menggunakan logik akal dan bebas untuk berfikir, kenapa marjaie ni perlu diikut tanpa banyak soal? Apa-apa yang marjaie kata semuanya betul dan kita tiada hak untuk mempersoalkan pendapatnya tak kira betapa cerdiknya dan betapa tingginya ilmu kita.
Try running from answering my RM1000 question again.
Your understanding of marjaiah is so shallow. Mujtahid can think and use logic but he is not completely free to make desicion because the constrainst is al-Quran, hadiths (partially), etc. Who said all what mujtahid said are true? There will be many people/scholars that will question him if his fatwa is not right. Besides, it's up to any shia to follow him or not if his fatwas, akhlaq, tendency towards worldly gain, etc are questionable. Shia are free to choose his own mujtahid to follow.
If a certain shia thinks he has adequate knowledge of Islam, he doesn't need to follow any mujtahid.
Selagi kita tak sampai ke tahap mujtahid, kita kena ikut marjaie sorang tuuu saja, pakai pendapat dia sorang tuuu saja. Seolah-olahnya dia sentiasa betul. Kita kena patuh dia macam patuh Nabi pulak.
Kita kat Malaysia ni pun kalau disuruh ikut imam Syiafi'e sorang saja tak boleh ikut mujtahid lain, haru woo....
Shia in general must choose his marja. If he thinks that his marja is not the best one, he should change... what is the problem?
Back to earlier question, why are you afraid to give me the answer? Is it a sunni akidah or not to believe that a father can't marry his own daughter??
If you can't give me the right answer and explain your reasons, I will assume that you believe it as sunni akidah. I will continue making my deductive inference to conclude that Imam Shafie has contradicted the akidah of sunni, Thus his mazhab is not sunni but agama Shafie... (try to follow your inference)
[ Last edited byJieShiang at 11-9-2008 02:10 PM ] Originally posted by JieShiang at 9-9-2008 06:09 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
It doesn't make much different if I tell you my actual aqeedah... I'm here neither to make friends nor enemies, just to fulfill my obligation as muslim to tell the truth according to my under ...
So, di sini ente pakai "topi" syiah lah ye.....:D
p/s: awat ada yang malu mengaku penganut Syiah... Originally posted by JieShiang at 11-9-2008 01:46 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
Try running from answering my RM1000 question again.
Your understanding of marjaiah is so shallow. Mujtahid can think and use logic but he is not completely free to make desicion because the ...
Ana cuba jawab soalan bernilai RM 1000....:)
Back to earlier question, why are you afraid to give me the answer? Isit a sunni akidah or not to believe that a father can't marry his owndaughter??
Betul....semua sepakat bahawa seorang bapa tidak boleh menikahi anak perempuan sendiri....:D
anak zina?
Anak hasil zina tidak dinasabkan kepada lelaki yang menzinai ibu anaktersebut meskipun kita mengetahui bahwa secara hukum kauni qadari anakzina tersebut adalah anaknya. Dalam arti, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'alamenakdirkan terciptanya anak zina tersebut sebagai hasil percampuranlaki-laki itu dengan wanita yang dizinainya. Akan tetapisecara hukum syar抜, anak itu bukan anaknya karena tercipta dengansebab yang tidak dibenarkan oleh syariat, yaitu perzinaan. Permasalahanini masuk dalam keumuman sabda Rasulullah Shallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam:
الْوَلَدُ لِلْفِرَاشِ وَلِلْعَاهِرِ الْحَجَرُ
揂nak yang lahir untuk pemilik kasur (artinya, anak yang dilahirkanoleh istri seseorang atau budak wanitanya adalah miliknya), dan seorangpezina tidak punya hak pada anak hasil perzinaannya. Originally posted by jingaros at 11-9-2008 04:08 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
Ye lah layan ziwasi lagi baik ..
An example of useless "Talian hayat".
Next time try to help him. He is already "senak" to answer the arguments from shia side.
Reply #146 JieShiang's post
Camni je yang ngko panggil soalan RM1000.Hampess...:shakehead3: Originally posted by Marja'ie at 12-9-2008 07:09 AM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
So, di sini ente pakai "topi" syiah lah ye.....:D
p/s: awat ada yang malu mengaku penganut Syiah...
It's not the issue of "malu" but more of the issue of definition and meaning of the word 'shia', 'sunni', etc itself.
The words have local and global definition. Even the word Islam has local and global definition. Local definition and meaning of Islam change from place to place. If you stay in a place where the local word of Islam means terrorist, killer, etc that deserves to be treated unjustly (or even killing), would you "malu" to say that you are a muslim?
I'm like a traveler who moves from place to place, it's better for me to be adaptive to local definition and meaning of the word shia, sunni, ahmadi, etc so that I don't make the local people confused with their local definition and misinterpreted my actual akidah.
Reply #157 JieShiang's post
Lepas ni mat saleh celup ni nak merambu pasal perkataan 'Islam' pulak.Tak payah layan. billy ni sepatutnya bukak thread baru 'dialog bersama jishang.'
mengofftopickan thread orang je kerja kau.:@ Originally posted by Marja'ie at 12-9-2008 07:28 AM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
Betul....semua sepakat bahawa seorang bapa tidak boleh menikahi anak perempuan sendiri....:D
You didn't actually answer that question, but I give you partial credit (markah kesian) 3/10 for making the effort. My next question:
ALL sunni agree that a father can't marry his daughter (according to you). Is the belief considered AKIDAH or not ??
If you said "yes", then this is my inference:
Belief in Quran is the AKIDAH of sunni
Whatever in the Quran is the AKIDAH of sunni.
A belief that a father can't marry his daughter is in Quran
Therefore, The belief that a father can't marry his daughter is the AKIDAH of sunni.
Prove my deductive reasoning is false, if not, I assume it's right and I will continue with my next inference to prove Mazhab Shafie is actually agama shafie.
Namun bukan berarti laki-laki tersebut boleh menikahi putri zinanya.Yang benar dalam masalah ini, dia tidak boleh menikahinya, sebagaimanapendapat jumhur yang dipilih oleh Syaikhul Islam dan Asy-Syaikh Ibnu慤tsaimin. Karena anak itu adalah putrinya secara hukum kauni qadariberasal dari air maninya, sehingga merupakan darah dagingnya sendiri.
Why do you show me this? It just gives me the advantage of proving Imam Shafie out of sunni AKIDAH. See.. Jumhur said it's illegal for a father to marry his own biological daughter (proven by you).
If Imam Shafie said it's legal, thus he was different from the rests, contradicting Quran, and out of sunni AKIDAH (look at my inference). Consequently, the mazhab is actually a new religion.
Reply #159 JieShiang's post
Kau diamlah! Orang tengah syok dengar penjelasan ziwasi ni.Kalau para mod rasa patut, splitkan saja posting-posting jishang yang berkait dengan nikah anak luar nikah dari sini atas nama "Mazhab Syafie atau agama Syafie."
Sekian.
Reply #11 Triple_8's post
permohonan diterima.Reply #12 ibnur's post
Terima kasih mr. Mod!:)Tak la banyak pinggan mangkuk. Originally posted by JieShiang at 12-9-2008 02:52 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
You didn't actually answer that question, but I give you partial credit (markah kesian) 3/10 for making the effort. My next question:
ALL sunni agree that a father can't marry his daughte ...
Sabar...jangan gelojoh sangat buat inference ke apa...
Ente baca baik2 jawapan ana tu....
Beginilah, ente dah tanya dan ana pun dah jawab...ente tanya balik...tak "fair"lah gitu...
Biarlah formatnya begini, ente tanya, ana jawab, kemudian ana tanya ente jawab....begitulah seterusnya..
boleh?
Reply #14 Marja'ie's post
Camni senang la sikit kita nak follow. Main sebelah padang mana aci.:lol: If you said "yes", then this is my inference:Belief in Quran is the AKIDAH of sunni
Whatever in the Quran is the AKIDAH of sunni.
A belief that a father can't marry his daughter is in Quran
Therefore, The belief that a father can't marry his daughter is the AKIDAH of sunni.
Prove my deductive reasoning is false,if not, I assume it's right and I will continue with my next inferenceto prove Mazhab Shafie is actually agama shafie.
Mat salleh ori cakap "If you want to shoot, just shoot, don't talk!":lol: Originally posted by JieShiang at 9-9-2008 02:15 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
This is actually a split topic. For readers who want to know the background of the issue should read this thread first.
http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=369381&extra=page%3D1
Sin ...
hahaha..!!
Sudah tukar ka...;P
Sincethe topic has been splited, it抯 wise for me to give a brief intro sothat new readers may not be confused and regard me as the one who triesto provoke or challenges Sunni mazhab esp. Shafie here with my daringexample (agama Shafie) to prove that syiah is actually not agama.Anyways, If you follow this discourse with patience till the end,inshaallah, you will see that I抦 far from accusing Mazhab Shafie asAgama Shafie.
Ente setuju tak dengan format perbincangan yang ana cadangkan...?:)
[ Last edited byMarja'ie at 14-9-2008 04:25 PM ] Originally posted by Marja'ie at 13-9-2008 01:10 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
Sabar...jangan gelojoh sangat buat inference ke apa...
Ente baca baik2 jawapan ana tu....
Beginilah, ente dah tanya dan ana pun dah jawab...ente tanya balik...tak "fair"lah gitu...
Biarl ...
I have read your answer few times but you didn't really answer my question. My question is simple; Is it Sunni Akidah to believe that a father can't marry his daughter? The answer's either Yes or No. (perhap with a little bit of explanation why you say yes or no)
I ask the question again because I'm not communicating with you only (the nature of previous thread).. maybe others want to try (because you didn't really answer the question).. If you want to make this discussion a one to one basis, and let's others just be the readers, it's very fine to me because it's more focused... i love that. Originally posted by Triple_8 at 13-9-2008 01:05 AM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
Terima kasih mr. Mod!:)
Tak la banyak pinggan mangkuk.
I think it's not about "tak la banyak pingan mangkuk" but "tak la senak perut aku". :)
[ Last edited byJieShiang at 15-9-2008 12:12 PM ] Originally posted by Triple_8 at 13-9-2008 04:47 PM http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
Mat salleh ori cakap "If you want to shoot, just shoot, don't talk!":lol:
That's what make you and me different... if somebody asks you to cut a tree, you take the axe and cut the tree. But I take the axe and sharpen it first before cutting the tree.