Questioner: What is meant in Hinduism by “Saguna Brahman” and how is that different from “Nirguna Brahman”
Answer: The term Saguna means “with attributes”. The term “Saguna Brahman” implies that God has a name and form and other attributes. Many Savikalpa Samadhis give rise to the (living) form of the Ishta Devata. Ishta Devta is one’s favored way of visualizing the divine. It might be Krishna, Jesus, Rama, the Goddess or some other Deity of choice.
Nirguna means “without attributes”. The term “Nirguna Brahman” implies that God as the Absolute has no name and form or attributes. Nirvikalpa Samadhi reveals the Nirguna nature of the Self.
There are a number of books on Hinduism that discuss Saguna and Nirguna Brahman. Classic yoga texts like Patanjali’s yoga sutras explain various types of Samadhi states. All of such concepts and topics of discussion can also be found in the conversations Sri Ramana had with various visitors, scholars, and yogis for over 50 years.
The book I recommend for the devotees of Sri Ramana is “Talks with Ramana Maharshi” as it gives the context of the conversations and the flavor of the essential teaching of Sri Ramana. “Day by Day with Bhagavan” capturing the Ashram atmosphere in the 1940s is very good as well. In addition, the recollections of various devotees given in many books are quite good.
One sees that Sri Ramana was very flexible and open to people who came with a sincere desire for self-knowledge. A person’s religion, philosophy, background, race, all of that, made no difference to him. In his acceptance of all, even the monkeys and squirrels and animals who were always around him, Sri Ramana emanated a perpetual aura of kindness.
Those interested in Advaita Vedanta and Self-Realization will find the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi to be very helpful.
hydrocloric posted on 8-5-2014 09:46 PM
erk... motif.. we want to know this..
Then you will understand WHY we reject Islam.
In Hinduism, hindus are forbid to worship God (Parathma, Supreme Soul) in His Sat-guna state. This is because in this state, God has no form or attribitute which could be described. Same way as you close your eyes and stand in the morning Sun. You can feel the warmth but unable to describe it with words and the light you see have no similarities to the Source it came from (the Sun). Nir-guna is when a person try to mimic what he sees and feels (the Sun and it's light) by creating a bon fire and describing/showing it to others who have no seen the Sun.
In Islam, Muslims are trying to describe/worship something which should not be worshipped - God without a form. There are also a danger here - there is no proof that what you worship is God or entity which trying to mimic itself as God (like Fire taking its own form and appearing before Man and describe itself as the Sun). In that context, Islam is DANGEROUS PRACTICE.
It is the modes of realizing the God (the Highest Self)... Nirguna Brahman is only meditated upon... Beings (creatures) worship attributes of the God. Hence, you see people worship the God in "forms" since this universe is subjected to the Time n Space... Worshiping the God in Saguna mode does not mean that the God is not respected or being worshiped in wrong ways. Practically, Orthodox Hindus do not call the God as the God. But the Highest Self (Paramatma). It could be compared to Jewish concept of not calling the God with Tetragrammaton. People were encouraged to call the God as the Name (I guess Ha Shem?)...
Important for non-Hindus to notice is, do not use your religious concept to compare your religion with others'. It is like you're being inclusive to others while you're judging others. You're not any Rishi which is equivalent to your prophets or seers or Bhagavant (the auspicious ones) who reach beyond metaphysical realms but only public who rely on their words. Everyone know about hell or paradise including us but we learned from our scriptures that both of these realms are located within the universe. This current universe is not permanent. If it is not permanent then it is something which is subjected to decay and temporal.
We look at ourselves as blind men who try to guess how does an enermous elephant look like. You touch a part and you start to "theorize". The theory is subjected to Time and Space. It could be challenged by the Time and Space. Just contemplate first on yourselves and see whether you're already an insan-e-kamil (perfected person/bhagavant) or still far from the reach?
Isa, Prasna, Katha, Tapaniya and other Upanishads elaborately treat the method of contemplation of Brahman, as devoid of qualities. Badarayana, in a chapter of Brahma-Sutras which deals with the nature of qualities of Brahman, mentions positive attributes like 'joyful,' 'intelligent,' etc., as well as negative attributes like 'measureless,' 'colourless,' etc. Both kinds of attributes are referred to the absolute and yet the contemplation of such a Brahman can be called Nirguna-Upasana or meditation on conditionless Brahman. The chief distinction between the contemplation of the conditioned (Saguna) and unconditioned (Nirguna) Brahman is that in the former the devotee looks upon it as really connected with those attributes, while in the latter, positive and negative qualities are not viewed as essentially connected with it, but as suggesting its absolute nature. Hence, joyful etc., do not enter into the essence of the contemplated Brahman but act as a gateway for grasping its true nature. In the contemplation of the conditioned Brahman, those and similar other properties form a part of the contemplation.
The term Nirguna does not mean that Brahman is a negative concept, the Brahman is a non-entity or zero. It means that the qualities found here in limitation, are found illimitable in Brahman. It means that the attributes are Brahman's essential nature or His Svarupa. It means that Brahman does not possess perishable qualities of matter like the blue colour of a cloth but possesses all auspicious qualities (Sarva-Kalyana-Gunas). Brahman is Nirguna-Guni. So also, by Nirakara, it does not mean that Brahman is formless. It means 'He has not got a limited form as that of objects, but has a form unimaginable.' What form can you attribute to infinity? Many have a crude idea of Brahman. They say "Brahman is a block of stone because He has no qualities. He is a regular void, a zero." No. No. They are entirely mistaken. They have not made Sadvichara. They have various doubts. They have a gross intellect which is unfit for philosophical investigation (Vichara), discrimination, reflection, ratiocination, etc. They have not studied the infallible Upanishads, the right means of knowledge, the right source of wisdom which gives an accurate knowledge of Brahman. Upanishads are infallible, because they appeal to the reason of every thinker, every philosopher. They tally with the experiences of realisation. Hence they are infallible. Their authority is more valid than that of perception or inference. Brahman is extremely subtle. He is finer than a thousandth part of a point of a hair divided into a thousand parts. A subtle, calm, pure, sharp-pointed, clear and one-pointed Suddha Buddhi is needed for understanding and meditating on Brahman. They suffer from Samasya-Bhavana, doubts regarding the validity of the Upanishads, and the true nature of Brahman. They should purify the mind by selfless service, should study the Upanishads, should develop the four means of qualifications, should have constant Satsanga. Then, they will have intellectual conviction and intellectual grasp of Brahman. By Sravana, by Manana and by Nididhyasana they reach Brahman. This is the royal road. So, Brahman is full of auspicious Gunas. He is a lump of luminosity. He is Prajnana-Ghana. He is a solid mass of knowledge. He is really more solid than the Himalayas. Knowledge is more heavy and more concrete than a huge block of stone.
In Saguna meditation, the devotee considers himself as entirely different from the object of worship. The worshipper makes a total, unreserved, ungrudging, self-surrender to the Lord. He respects, honours, adores the Lord and depends on Him for everything, for food, protection and his very existence. He looks always for help of any sort from the Ishta Devata. There is nothing independent for him. He is an instrument in the hands of the Lord. His hands, legs, senses, mind, Buddhi, physical body belong to the Lord. A devotee does not at all like the idea of Jnana or merging. He likes to have his separate entity as a servant and to serve, worship and love the Lord always. He does not like to become sugar as a Jnani, but like to taste sugar and eat sugar. This method of worship is one of contraction. Suppose there is a circle. You have a position in the centre. You contract yourself to a point and merge in the circumference. This is Saguna meditation. This is suitable for people of emotional temperament. Vast majority of persons are fit for this line of worship only.
In Nirguna meditation, the aspirant takes himself as Brahman. He denies and sublates the false adjuncts or fictitious environments as egoism, mind and body. He depends upon himself and upon himself alone. The aspirant asserts boldly. He reflects, reasons out, investigates, discriminates and meditates on the Self. He does not want to taste sugar but wants to become a solid mass of sugar itself. He wants merging. He likes to be identical with Brahman. This method is one of expansion of lower self. Suppose there is a circle. You have a position in the centre. You so expand by Sadhana to a very great extent that you occupy the whole circle, and envelop the circumference. This method of meditation is suitable for persons of fine intellect, bold understanding, strong and accurate reasoning and powerful will. Only a microscopic minority of persons is fit for this line of meditation.
It is comparatively easy to meditate on 'Aham Brahma Asmi' when you are seated in a steady posture in a solitary closed room. But it is very, very difficult to keep up this idea amidst crowded surroundings, while the body moves. If you meditate for one hour and feel that you are Brahman, and if you feel for the remaining twenty-three hours that you are the body, the Sadhana cannot produce the desired result. So, at all times, you must try to keep up the idea that you are Brahman. This is very, very important.
A worldly mind needs thorough overhauling and a complete psychological transformation. Concentration and meditation bring about the construction of a new mind, with a new mode of thinking. Contemplative life is diametrically opposite to worldly life. It is an entire change altogether. Old Vishaya- Samskaras have to be thoroughly annihilated through constant and intense practices carried on with zeal for a long time and thereby new spiritual Samskaras have to be created.
- Swami Sivananda Ji
Last edited by vikramavardhana on 9-5-2014 12:23 PM
Brahman (Sanskrit: ब्रह्म, "the Supreme Being; the Absolute Reality; Godhead"), from the verb brh, "to grow", and connotes "immensity" — is the impersonal and immanent, infinite cause and support of the universe that has no form or attributes. The uncaused cause of the Universe; satchidānanda (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss Absolute), The Eternal Changeless Reality, not conditioned by time, space and causation. Brahman is the basis, source and support of everything — the transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this universe. Its nature consists of the three incommunicable attributes of (1) sat (Absolute Being), (2) chit (Consciousness), (3) ananda (Bliss). This Supreme Being assumes a dual nature — Male and Female. The male aspect is known as Purusha which means “that-which-fills” — and the Female aspect is known as Shakti which translates as “Energy” or “Dynamic Force” or Prakriti — material nature. Also called as Paramātman (Universal Self), Parasiva, Ultimate Reality, Supreme Being or the Absolute.
Description
The Vedas depict Brahman as the Ultimate Reality, the Absolute or Paramātman (Universal Self). Brahman is the indescribable, inexhaustible, incorporeal, omniscient, omnipresent, original, first, eternal, both transcendent and immanent, absolute infinite existence, and the ultimate principle who is without a beginning, without an end , who is hidden in all and who is the cause, source, material and effect of all creation known, unknown and yet to happen in the entire universe.
Brahman (not to be confused with the deity Brahmā) is seen as a Cosmic Spirit. The personality behind Brahman is known as Parabrahman (The superior Brahman). Brahman may be viewed as Nirguna Brahman (without personal attributes) or Saguna Brahman (with attributes).
The Mundaka Upanishad says:
AUM
That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite.
The infinite proceeds from infinite.
Then through knowledge, realizing the infinitude of the infinite, it remains as infinite alone.
— Mundaka Upanishad
Conceptualization
Brahman is not an object, as It is Adrisya, beyond the reach of the eyes. Hence the Upanishads declare: “Neti Neti—not this, not this….” This does not mean that Brahman is a negative concept, or a metaphysical abstraction, or a nonentity, or a void. It is not another. It is all-full, infinite, changeless, self-existent, self-delight, self-knowledge and self-bliss. It is Svarupa, essence. It is the essence of the knower. It is the Drashta (Seer), Turiya (Transcendent) and Sakshi (Silent Witness).
Brahman is said to be eternal, genderless, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and ultimately indescribable in the human language. It can be at best described as infinite Being, infinite Consciousness and infinite Bliss. Brahman is regarded as the source and essence of the material universe. It is pure being. Brahman manifests as Hiranyagarbha, the "world soul", which also can take many forms or manifestations of the thousands of devasuras (beings sprung from the elements of light and cosmic energies). It was deemed a singular substrate from which all that is arises, and debuts with this verse:
Great indeed are the devas who have sprung out of Brahman.
— Atharva Veda
Essentially, it is also beyond being and non-being alike, and thus does not quite fit with the usual connotations of the word God and even the concept of monism. For this reason, some authors use the word 'Godhead' for Brahman, to distinguish it from the usual usage of the word 'God'. To call this concept 'God' would be imprecise. The closest interpretation of the term can be found in the Taittariya Upanishad where Brahman is described in the following manner:
satyam jnanam anantam brahman
"Brahman is of the nature of truth, knowledge and infinity"
Thus, Brahman is the origin and end of all things, material or otherwise. Brahman is the root source and Divine Ground of everything that exists, and does not exist.
The Hindu scriptures declare that Brahman (the impersonal God) is beyond description, and can be understood only through direct spiritual experience. Nevertheless, for the benefit of others, the ancient Hindu sages who experienced Brahman attempted to describe their experiences, as recorded in the ancient Vedic texts known as the Upanishads.
Several mahā-vākyas, or great sayings, indicate what the principle of Brahman is:
rajnānam brahma
"Brahman is knowledge"
ayam ātmā brahma
"The Self (or the Soul) is Brahman"
aham brahmāsmi
"I am Brahman"
tat tvam asi
"You are that"
sarvam khalv idam brahma
"All this that we see in the world is Brahman"
sachchidānanda brahma
"Brahman is existence, consciousness, and happiness"
Thus, Brahman is conceived of as the very essence of existence and knowledge, which pervades the entire universe, including every living being. The goal of Hinduism is to somehow "wake up," and realize one's own connection to the divine reality that may be called Brahman or God. Because God is everywhere, God is also present within each living being.
Nirguna and Saguna Brahman
Brahman possesses infinite potential, power and intelligence, and therefore cannot be limited by a single name or form. Thus, Hindus view the Brahman as having two aspects: impersonal and personal. The impersonal aspect is called Nirguna Brahman in Hindu scriptures. Nirguna Brahman has no attributes and, as such, is not an object of prayer, but of meditation and knowledge. This aspect of Brahman is beyond conception, beyond reasoning and beyond thought. The personal aspect of Brahman is known as Saguna Brahman, that is Brahman with attributes.
Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman are not two different Brahmans. Nirguna Brahman is not the contrast, antithesis or opposite of Saguna Brahman. The same Nirguna Brahman appears as Saguna Brahman for the pious worship of devotees. It is the same Truth from two different points of view. Nirguna Brahman is the higher Brahman, the Brahman from the transcendental viewpoint (Paramarthika); Saguna Brahman is the lower Brahman, the Brahman from the relative viewpoint (Vyavaharika).
Nirguna Brahman
The Absolute without qualities, is impersonal, without guna or attributes, Nirakara (formless), Nirvisesha (without special characteristics), immutable, eternal and Akarta (non-agent). It is above all needs and desires. It is always the Witnessing Subject. It can never become an object as It is beyond the reach of the senses. Brahman is non-dual, one without a second. It has no other beside It. It is destitute of difference, either external or internal. Brahman cannot be described, because description implies distinction. Brahman cannot be distinguished from any other than It. In Brahman, there is not the distinction of substance and attribute. Sat-Chit-Ananda (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss) constitute the very essence or Svarupa of Brahman, and not just Its attributes.
Saguna Brahman
Qualified absolute, came from the Sanskrit saguṇa (सगुण) "with qualities" and brahman (ब्रह्मन्) "the Absolute." The personal aspect of the Ultimate Reality. Saguna Brahman is the creator, sustainer and controller of the universe. As the male aspect, Saguna Brahman is called by various Sanskrit names, such as Ishvara, Parameshvara, paramatma, Maheshvara, and Purusha. As the female aspect, Saguna Brahman is refered by various names, such as Divine Mother, Durgã and Kãlî.
Despite the abstract principle of Brahman, most Hindus worship Brahman on a day-to-day basis in one of Brahman's less abstract personal forms, such as Vishnu, Shiva, or Shakti. Some Hindus worship these personal forms for a practical reason: it is easier to cultivate devotion to a personal being than to an abstract principle. Other Hindus, such as those following the dvaita-advaita traditions, consider the personal forms in themselves to be the highest form of truth and worship Brahman as an infinite and yet personal being.
Enlightenment and Brahman
While Brahman lies behind the sum total of the objective universe, some human minds boggle at any attempt to explain it with only the tools provided by reason. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the mind, beyond intelligence, beyond imagination. Indeed, the highest idea is that Brahman is beyond both existence and non-existence, transcending and including time, causation and space, and thus can never be known in the same material sense as one traditionally 'understands' a given concept or object.
Imagine a person who is blind from birth and has not seen anything. Is it possible for us to explain to him the meaning of the colour red? Is any amount of thinking or reasoning on his part ever going to make him understand the sensation of the colour red? In a similar fashion the idea of Brahman cannot be explained or understood through material reasoning or any form of human communication.Brahman is like the colour red; those who can sense it cannot explain or argue with those who have never sensed it.
Brahman is considered the all pervading consciousness which is the basis of all the animate and inanimate entities and material. (brahmano hi pratisthaham, Bhagavad Gita 14.27)
Last edited by vikramavardhana on 9-5-2014 06:14 PM
You need Indian languages to understand how we perceive the world and universe, we do not use arabic, greek or hebrew because they're not from our region... we've our own ancient philosophical sciences nurtured within our vast region Last edited by vikramavardhana on 9-5-2014 06:20 PM
hydrocloric posted on 12-5-2014 10:09 AM
and if so.. dangerous.. why worship idol's.. that cant speak.. why worship tree's... etc..
are you clear with:
What is murti?
What is vikraha?
What is tantra?
What is pooja?
What is namah?
What is samadhi?
What is jeevatma?
What is Paramatma?
What is atman?
Tree is not worshiped but respected. Everything in this world that you see, housing the Spirit. Can you explain what is Self? How your god creates your prophet? Your prophet or seer has no spirit in his body? Then, how a creature move or function the body? Please do your homework first on how abraham perceives the world before you ask about things which you identify as "idolatry". You may use word play but what is the context of the words used to define things which you believe? I suggest you to read first what is Saguna Brahman and what is Nirguna Brahman. Try to understand first instead of right away coming up with questions... Simply because your worldview does not conform with others' worldview. Other than that, we do not follow your imam Shafei or imam Hanafi so why do you expect us to do things like you?
it is simple.. see Hinduism it self as a whole... terms of worshiping cows.. elephant.. trees... kasta..
we don't expect you to follows our ways of life.. or teaching.. stop being hypocrite .. you could utter your word's against islam without knowing it but yet when I'm doing the same thing u get piss off..
let me remind u of one of your statement
"In Islam, Muslims are trying to describe/worship something which should not be worshipped - God without a form. There are also a danger here - there is no proof that what you worship is God or entity which trying to mimic itself as God (like Fire taking its own form and appearing before Man and describe itself as the Sun). In that context, Islam is DANGEROUS PRACTICE. "
hindu way's of life is far more dangerous.. hermmm.. was wandering why more hindu's convert to islam and the trend is increasing lately.. wandering .. hermmm
in term of jesus christ.. in chisrtianity they acknowledge that their representation of died .. because the sin .. or some sort.. the bottom line is that .. god.. dies..and same to you.. few of wour god did.. died.. hermmm god could never died.. lah .. if god died.. world could get in chaos..
and few hindus do worship sai baba.. hermm sai baba is a muslim and his teach hindus.. the way of islam and at last he is being worship as a god..
u need to see zikir naik.. vids.. Last edited by hydrocloric on 12-5-2014 07:06 AM
hydrocloric posted on 12-5-2014 01:59 PM
it is simple.. see Hinduism it self as a whole... terms of worshiping cows.. elephant.. trees... kas ...
Whoa, where did I said that your religion is dangerous or not dangerous? I suppose that another person said so. So, that is his/her individual opinion. Why it has to do with other Hindus? Now, do you realize that you had drawn yourself into perception or identifying your self with perception? It means you are now your perception, not your self If you think we Hindus are in general hypocrites, then what do you think about yourself? You are a holy spirit? angel gabriel? angel michael? alla? What qualifies you as a Judge before the Supreme Self?
The term puja is used within context. We do not use the word with the definition like you have in Malay. On the other hand, the word puja in you language comes from our languages. The languages of the Hindu. So, how does your pendakwa giving other nuances to the word? How do you understand the word puja? as far as I know, Indonesian and Malay kingdoms were ruled by either the Devarajas or the Bodhisattvas. What word do they used to respect the kings? Even if the words exist until today, does that mean you're worshiping the gross body of the kings?
You would say, people need tafseer to exegate your Quran, and that people need to consult the right ulemas in concern with the tenets of your religion. Don't you think that you need to get clarification from the Gurus, Swami Jis, or etc? Last time, your country had some quarrels on the kalimah alla. Sunni Muslims as a whole claimed that the word is holy and should not be used by non-Muslims. Then, do you believe that your god dwells in the alphabets of aleef, laam, laam, ha? I saw Muslims do not bring this word into the toilet or put this word under their feet. Then, what does this mean? Don't you think you're revering the word? Doesn't that mean, Muslims also commit polytheism? Because the word is carved on stone, written on paper or written on the wood made from tree. Those stuffs become holy too because they're written with something which represents your god? Don't you?
I saw Zakir Naik. He is an Indian Muslim who promotes one among the religion of the arabs. He's not a Brahman Guru, even if he memorizes some chunks of the vedas to captivate Hindus. Why do you think we have to learn our religion from those sheikhs or your imams? they do not believe in our Gurus. So, it should be fair and square. Other than that, it would be fit if we go to Islamic board or posting things which insult or disrespect your imam Shafei, your prophet Muhammad or alla. But we never broke into your sides and respect your religion. Why cant you ask us with ethics, tatasusila or with adab istiadat? Do you think that only Muslims are the human in this world?
hydrocloric posted on 12-5-2014 02:11 PM
caste in hinduism.. hermm that is what u called perfect.. hindusm... ahahahaha
Human was divided in social strata. If Muslims do not have caste system, why Muslims Sultans do not have to be caned 100 times when they have
affairs with women outside of the nikah? It is clear that you do not want to understand our way of life but you wanted us to acknowledge that only your religion is the path to realize the truth. Then, you're still alive now. You think that you're not going to go to the hell. Even if you commit the crime, then you would only be dipped into the hell for a while and go to paradise. Don't you think that you're resembling the Yahudis that you guys hate so much?
vikramavardhana posted on 12-5-2014 07:20 AM
Whoa, where did I said that your religion is dangerous or not dangerous? I suppose that another pe ...
the kalimah allah issue arise as we all know this chirstianty people like to twist thing arround a bit ... for what you do need to emphises your god as allah.. why .. and for what reason.. we all know that who is jessus but why need to empehises it as allah ... what are the true reason.. better to stop it know rather then later.
hindus... and caste.. could not be sapperated..
Pojaa that you are tried to reiterated toward sultans i belive it is not quite a the correct word to be used.. it is a tradition .. not a pojaa.. thinggy that u guy doing...
"polytheism" got some fact to backed this up.. as if u are reffering to kaabah.. i thing.. u need to study more than bickering on the web
hydrocloric posted on 12-5-2014 02:47 PM
the kalimah allah issue arise as we all know this chirstianty people like to twist thing arround a ...
I'm not bickering in Islamic Board. This is Hinduism Board. Don't you think the word bickering should be stamped on you instead on me? Why should I study your religion in this side? If I wanted to study it, then I would go to Islamic board and politely ask Muslim moderators on things which I do not understand. Were you a Hindu by birth who embraces Islam or a Malay Muslim by birth? If so, then you should come to the mathams and consult the right Gurus (ulemas) of Hinduism. Not consult the videos or Islamic ulemas who taugt religious comparison and creating debate structures to win adherents simply to show off on the quantity of the people as a benchmark of the truth within a certain path.
vikramavardhana posted on 12-5-2014 07:38 AM
Human was divided in social strata. If Muslims do not have caste system, why Muslims Sultans do no ...
hermmm be canned 100 times becoz having an affair with someelse wife.. i bet hindus.. is would allowed this... that is not a caste is islam lah that is a law in islam..
how many caste lavel in hindu religion.. ?? hermm becoz of this hindus teaching.. how many innocent live got wasted.. becoz of this .. why the need of this caste in hindu..
So, you come here to Islamisize the Hindus and to prove things are right or wrong? Then, why not turn this side into Islamic board if you do not want us to turn the leaf as the analogy? You do not have to ask things no more to understand if you think that other paths are wrong. Your "cup" is filled with your ideas about the life, so why bother to ask when you do not want to give some space for some knowledge to flow?
Post time 8-5-2014 04:28 PM
变色卡
Author
lah that is a law in islam.. 
