Predetermination VS Freedom of Will?

mbhcsf

9# pendakwa
fair does not necessarily mean  "equal"
right ?
fair is rather subjective.....so.. in the above example - a child with special needs well could be having his/her own provision in different form, way  etc etc and well yes if you were to base it on physical attributes then surely there would be some form of "inadequacy" but  holistically....fair , again does not necessarily mean  of equal  and EXACT degree. attribute , form etc etc

mbhcsf

17# ajinomotonosuga

I have read about Victor Frankl with his book called the Last of Human Freedom, kalau tak silap.
I guess you got your point in detail elaboration PD vs FOW.
But this is slig ...
pendakwa Post at 20-7-2009 19:49

yes god is fair - depends on how would you see your disability as ..as a hampering / repressing factor  or a bucket of reward hereafter ?

ZamZamAlaKazam

29# hamizao

“The predeterminists also advocate that predetermination applies to any event...even thoughts and emotions ....life are predetermined by the same classical physical laws of nature. Some call it Karma. … ”

While thought and emotion can be conditioned to follow a certain path, we cannot deny that it carries certain and specific consequences.  Some outcomes are known or can be expected, while others are not known.

There is an allegory story where a wise man destroys a sampan lest a cruel king misused it, he killed a child lest he grew up to be bad, and he shows that a good deed doesn’t need to be asked for nor repaid.

To me the story quite summed up the issues of predetermination vs free will.

While our lives is predetermined / preordained, men are free to act on his knowledge to change it.  Others have mentioned the famous verse regarding changing for the better, or even for worse – which was not realized by many that this verse can also mean that we collectively are responsible for the decaying state of our society.

It is what, free will that is, we as human is entrusted with.  Our free will build a better world, but to go to a better state we have to go through the bottom first.  Eventually we would achieve what that we are intended for…

On a different matter, I see a quite lengthy discussion related to takdir… either good or bad.

Our body is just a vessel, while our soul is the spiritual conduit.  We have brain but it is our mind that separate us from instinctive animals.

As a natural being, we are subjected to the natural selection, ie under certain circumstances and conditions, we are born as we are.  Out of the millions sperm, only one impregnates an ovum.  That possibility alone is a statistical nightmare.  However, that doesn’t mean we are not entitled to exercise our free will…

hamizao

43# ZamZamAlaKazam

"...There is an allegory story where a wise man destroys a sampan lest a cruel king misused it, he killed a child lest he grew up to be bad, and he shows that a good deed doesn’t need to be asked for nor repaid.

To me the story quite summed up the issues of predetermination vs free will...."

IF an event has been predetermined then my take is it CANNOT be changed. Personally, I accept that if the various stages culminating to the result of the end occuring according to the various probabilities,  then each result may have a calculated chance of occuring. In this sense I would say each result may be determinded inaccordance with the path taken (this is where free will is supposed to be exercised). So if the man could FORSEE that the cruel king would come that way, then he sinks the boat to stop the king's possible advance. Perhaps from God's point of view he has predetermined the end but he needs to create the right occurences leading to that end?? Again that would not be free will Isn't it?

If I may recall Sophocles' Oedipus the King where the oracle only informed the King of the destiny that his newborn son would one day kill him and marry his mother, the King set in motion acts that he thought would avert that destiny....i.e. sent the baby off to die...But you know, the servant had given off the baby to someone else instead. Then as destiny would have it, the boy did grow up and killed his father and married his mother while he was ignorant of the fact!

So, even if you could see destiny, no matter what you do, it would not be changed. Tell me if this is no so and why.
Determinism  can be worrying least man may fall into a state of fatalism................another topic....another day perhaps?

hamizao

9# pendakwa

"Begini - Seorang anak dilahirkan cacat dan seorang lagi tidak. Bagaimana kita relate kan benda itu sebagai takdir. Sekiranya takdir menentukan anak yg dilahirkan cacat, tidakkah dari sudut logik akal mengatakan sesungguhnya tidak berlaku keadilan didalam proses pembikinan sedangkan dari Quran terang-terang mengatakan konsep keadilan ilahi..."

Apa2 yang manusia tak faham ....itulah yang diorang letakkan sebagai takdir...blame it on God's will...his predetermination. Habis. Siapa nak argue tentang itu lagi? Klu dapat diselidik pasti ada sesuatu yang menyebabkan kecacatan itu.....maklumlah dalam kejadian janin ada banyak perkara yang berlaku. Jadi pada setiap fasanya macam2 boleh berlaku samaada secara rambang atau tidak. Mungkinkah itulah sejauh mana ketentuan Nya?

Yes, there can be so many indeterminate factors all within His creation.
Am I making sense?

Hmmm how come the toolbar ain't working, MOD? Dia reply in Chinese lagi!!

hamizao

19# pendakwa

"I was born handicap, and the other was born perfect. We have everything in common, same IQ, same EQ except I'm handicap. Now, how can we relate this situation dlm bentuk keadilan.Do you think that God is fair? I mean i'm not trying to provoke the almighty punya unfairness, but just a little question since a friend of mine is creating a situation where god had also create injustice."

Sorry, had to take a while to think this out....

My take on this is as follows:

On the premise of the existence of God, I reckon there is a moral & universal responsibility on all over which man is judged.....the rich over the poor, the beautuful over the ugly, the complete over the incomplete.............and so on. Somewhat akin to what aji espoused somewhere above...

The same goes to the have nots and the likes. Do they just sink into fatalism? Now, He is said to say, He gives only as much as one can bear. You think your poverty stinks but the rich cannot sleep well either. You think your handicap sucks, the ohers missed many opportunities to justify their braun and beauty till one day they too lost their mind and health.......The list goes on. I reckon that the end would be self-evident if you don't do anything with what you have. I reckon, free will gives you the opportunity to DO something about your actual destiny.

pendakwa

9# pendakwa

"Begini - Seorang anak dilahirkan cacat dan seorang lagi tidak. Bagaimana kita relate kan benda itu sebagai takdir. Sekiranya takdir menentukan anak yg dilahirkan cacat, tidakkah dari ...
hamizao Post at 25-7-2009 16:27

Klu dapat diselidik pasti ada sesuatu yang menyebabkan kecacatanitu.....maklumlah dalam kejadian janin ada banyak perkara yang berlaku.Jadi pada setiap fasanya macam2 boleh berlaku samaada secara rambangatau tidak. Mungkinkah itulah sejauh mana ketentuan Nya?

Yes, i do agree with this statement. throughout the process, it is not predetermine, its still subject to error than mankind has violate somehow that differ from the nature of normal flow. As a result, this will allow abnormalities to happen. Mungkin makan tak jaga, projek time tak elok, u know stuff like that. Do you buy with the statement?

pendakwa

46# hamizao

He is said to say, He gives only as much as one can bear.

On the other hand, if an adult looks through the other side of lens, the answer is yes from the opposite side.
Now, i have just visited a friend of mine where his child is suffering and dying from terrible illness. To the parents, they should view from this lens, the opposite side, but how about the child who is suffering? Does she has the right to enjoy life and stay healthy? How can she understand God's will then?

hamizao

48# pendakwa

"Now, i have just visited a friend of mine where his child is suffering and dying from terrible illness. To the parents, they should view from this lens, the opposite side, but how about the child who is suffering? Does she has the right to enjoy life and stay healthy? How can she understand God's will then?"

As earlier espoused we always have that universal responsibility over others and your own self. You may extrapolate/interpolate in any direction.....an expectant mum over the foetus she is carrying, a nurse or doctor over his patient, man over his own body and soul..............Whatever happened, it happened with a cause. The result is contingent to all that happened in the past...like you said klu makan tak betul, badan tak dijaga ...akan menyebabkan sesuatu termasuklah penyakit. A child may be too young to exercise his free will in a better rational way, hence his destiny is for a time  contingent to whatever his guardians or parents did to affect it or not.

An interesting point you brought out about the child's right. I shall ponder on this as that is another plane............