Marikh (Mars) : Misi, Eksplorasi & Penemuan

lipans

sit die ni kan?  

kurga

clear betul la gambar diorang.. nampak cam kat padang gurun jer...

bzzts

tgh lepak gulung tembakau... nak isap rokok tu... :re:

nah gambar besar sikit. sikit je...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/home ... 713312&nSlide=1

meitantei

Aku rasa tu batu la...

yaminz

Gimik tok tahun baru 2008...   Ms Amstrong g bln pon xtau btl k tidak nei, maybe gimik NASA lg kot...

mbhcsf

well, where is the "scientific "bit of it. It's just a mere speculation.
and one more thing,the interesting phrase that i could tease out would be : okay ..mars got the ice caps.. so ice translates into water the H2O and voila the ultimate source of any living organisms for survival.

well,  okay .

Pernyataan di atas tu mmglah benar selagi MANUSIA - we human be the one to say it - sebab ia berlandaskan  pada our current knowledge that water is the important elements in biology. It's the medium of any biochemiscal rection and so forth. we human , we know it .


or  we said this based on our current scientific knowledge, kan?

i just wondering, what if:-


that the other organism from Mars or even Jupited do not thrive  on water etc for their bilogical processes or biomachinery?
whatif they are using other form of biochemical compound?

then, surely enuff theis hypothetical alien would be having different producsts of metabolisms...

hmm.. so back. to the topic at hand well..lantak lah apa pun.Apa yg nak hairan kalau wujud pun dia makhluk Allah jugak.Wallahualam

meitantei

Syarat utk 'living organism' ialah air. Takde air, maka takleh hidup la aper2 organisma pun. Kat sistem suria ni, cuma bumi jer yg ada air dlm bentuk cecair. Lain tempat semua dlm bentuk ais atau gas. Jadi alien dlm sistem suria tu unlikely.

Kalau wujud alien yg 'biochemistry'nya tak guna air, itu bukan lagi 'biochemistry' dah. Sebab dlm biochemistry, mesti ada air. Jadi kalau wujud alien yg sistem badannya guna inorganic substance, tu dah bukan organisma lagi dah, dah jauh berbeza.

Rasanya takkan ada wujud alien yg sistem badannya guna inorganic substance. Sebab elemen2 inorganic ni tak sehebat elemen Karbon yg bleh buat macam2 bentuk dan rantai. Kalau nak ader alien yg guna karbon plak, mestila ader elemen oksigen ngan hidrogen... Jadi takleh lari dr air... Pendek kata, takde air dlm bentuk cecair, takde alien...

Satu lagi, pasal perkataan 'makhluk'. Perkataan ni dari perkataan 'khalaqa' dlm bhs arab yg bermaksud 'cipta'. Dr segi bahasa, 'makhluk' bermaksud 'benda yg dicipta'. Planet Jupiter pun bleh dikatakan makhluk Allah gak. Maksud aku, bukan benda hidup dlm dunia ni jer yg bleh dikategorikan sbg 'makhluk'. Semua isi dlm alam ni selain Allah ialah 'makhluk'. Okeh? Faham? Bagus....

mbhcsf

Semua isi dlm alam ni selain Allah ialah 'makhluk'. Okeh? Faham? Bagus
....ohoh extra careful. I know you meant yg Allah cipta. okay i know semantically you are referring to the  living and non living things.
But dear ....ada satu benda yg kita perlu ingat bahawa Al - Quran ialah kalamullah.okay fine with Aqidah bit.


moving on ....

well,yerlah  you are right on the fact that water is essentially important lah. okay . I accept that.


but dear look at this

virus is non living .it's a particle. It exists in our system. Fine. But once in the cells, it has the capacity to take over the biomachinery.

then what abot the archeobacteria? the bacteria that we found thriving on sulphur ? those that populate the hot water springs? or that thingy at yellowstone national park?

how about PRION - yg mad cow tu...it is more advanced that virus. It is made amino acids. It pretty stable when heat etc. So it replicates. Did behave like living organism once an entrance to a cell is made.


i mean ada kan unsur unsur yg sifat organism ni yg tak  konvensional. itu yg i nak highlight.

you are right everything that we termed organic will always containing the .

elements of carbon and oxygen. well...why not.


another thing, did you ever consider : yg membezakan manusia and other maklhluk ciptaan Allah yg kat alam semesta yg kita tahu ialah - frekuensi?

ialah ..ni my physics teacher ajaq. would u reckon? kita tak nampak malaikat sebab dep amay be ade certain  x frekuensi yg mmg tak dapat detect?

meitantei

Ader debate sama ada virus ni benda hidup ker tidak. Walaubagaimanapun, utk virus merebak, ia perlu host. Virus merebak dgn memasukkan viral mRNAnya ke dlm sel hidup. Pastu, enzyme reverse transcriptase dari virus itu akan 'translate' mRNA tu utk menjadi satu strand DNA dgn menggunakan nucleotide2 dlm sel hidup tu sendiri. DNA ini pulak akan integrate dgn sel hidup tersebut. Maka sel hidup tersebut boleh dikatakan telah termutate lalu menghasilkan banyak anak2 virus ni.

Pendek kata, kalau takde sel hidup, maka virus tak boleh merebak. Sel hidup pulak perlukan air. Takde air, maka tak bleh la ader sel hidup. Takde sel hidup takder la virus. Virus tak dpt hidup independently tanpa sel hidup.

Aper yg tak konvensional sgt pasal prion tu selain diperbuat hanya drp protein? (tambahan lagi, ni cuma hipotesis jer, blum dibuktikan lagi) Apakah unsur2 yg membina amino acid? Sudah tentulah Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen dan Nitrogen (dan sedikit sulphur). Ni unsur2 yg wajib ada utk living organism. Kalau dah living organism, memang tak boleh lari dari air. Jadi selagi kita tak jumpa planet yg ada air dlm bentuk cecair macam kat bumi ni, kemungkinan utk wujudnya organisma hidup adalah sgt kecil.

Pasal malaikat pulak, dikatakan dicipta daripada cahaya (atau nur). Selain tu aku tak tahu aper2 lagi. Our understanding of light is still flawed to infer such creature. Dlm classical physics, light ialah em waves, tapi dlm teori quantum, light adalah particles. Dan theory light adalah particles lebih konsisten dgn phenomena yg diperhatikan dlm alam ni (cuma lebih complicated drp macammana classical physics explain light). Dan kelihatannya our current description of the phenomena called 'light' is still unsatisfactory (as quantum physics itself is still an unsatisfactory theory as it clashes violently when we try to merge it with General Relativity). Jadi, utk buat masa skrg, dengan pengetahuan Sains yg manusia ada skrg, tak dpt nak explain malaikat. Wallahua'lam.

Saya pun ader soalan. Kenapa Al-Quran tidak boleh dikatakan makhluk walaupun Al-Quran itu sendiri dari Allah (hence, in my understanding, still a creation of Allah)?

mbhcsf

Saya pun ader soalan. Kenapa Al-Quran tidak boleh dikatakan makhluk walaupun Al-Quran itu sendiri dari Allah (hence, in my understanding, still a creation of Allah)?

well...u could ask Brother Ibnur to clarify that...pada i baik you jangan you know...akui dgn hati ...allowing with conviction yer sebab this has been a long debated topic between Imam As -Syafie and someone .This conviction of saying this could lead you to...so you know..just leave it like that...but dear  oh dear...Al - quran is the word of Allah not HIs creation. As simple as that and please PM brother IB for this. I dah takut you said this dah....okay ....

[ Last edited by  mbhcsf at 26-1-2008 08:29 PM ]

mbhcsf

mmg lah we presumed that all living organisms in the universe need water to thrive. Fine. But you see.. this is the rule of the system in our universe. MMglah.Viruses , prions need hosts to replicate themselves.

but you see...may be in other universe, the principle would not be applied.
pernah u terfikir tak may be, certain organism would not take up oxygen to fuel their enery, they would probably inhaled on something. itu jer lah kot.

But as for other arguments, mmglah  you are right.

mbhcsf

there must be something about the ph.ysical and chemical properties of this h20 that makes it so special to all living organisms to thrive on.

and you would contrast that with fire - eh fire , when it's  in the "burning stage" like fire of a  candle stick you know, when it burns, what would you think the "state" or the transition processes that took place?  conversion of matter being burnt tu? from what  state to what state?

and why oh why in physics they tend to have this classification like


plasma physics
solid state physics etc

what would these two  sub discplinines indicate?

meitantei

Kalau tak pakai oxygen, pakai aper plak? Dlm banyak2 elemen dlm periodic table tu, cuma oxygen jer yg unik utk menjalankan fungsi benda hidup. Elemen2 lain sama ada terlalu besar atau tidak cukup stabil dsb.

H2O memang sgt special. Antaranya ialah specific heat capacity yg besar dan intensive hydrogen bonding between water molecules. Baca buku kimia kalau nak tahu lebih lanjut.

Pasal soalan2 yg lain tu, aku tak paham aper yg ko tanya. Selain tu aku pun kurang mahir dlm plasma physics dan solid state physics.

mbhcsf

dah tapat baca buku kimia ler...it was a long time ago.
Anyway, i am exhausted of questions ..but ader side questions

how much would you want to tell ne about the laws of thermodynamics?

mbhcsf

okaylah, mmg kita the earthlings akan cuba jawab yg yerlah all the organic living things will breath the oxygen in and exhaling the co2 + h2o + heat = that 's the product of metabolism. That's the norm, that's what we have known all along but consider this.....

Tapi kan, would you wonder if and only if this hypothetical "organic" entity would take  up let say, ammonia for example and producing an X + Y + Z ithings . would this organic entity defying the already known to man the rule governed  bio/ chemistry principles of our universe?


or


would u think that this living entity would or must have in their system an innate or  certain metabolic/biological pathways /mechanism to comply with the  existing rule of bio/chemistry / physiological principles that are actively governing our universe?

possible tak?


u faham tak?

let say , kalau ada sekoq menatng tu cuba break the rule gitu - gitulah...

meitantei

faham... tapi aper X, Y dan Z tu?

glucose adalah antara substance yg paling penting utk benda hidup. Pengoksidaan glucose menghasilkan banyak tenga disebabkan covalent bonds between unsur carbon dan hydrogen dsb.

Dlm alam semesta ni, unsur carbon jer yg seversetail ni. Pengoksidaan compound2 inorganic tak dapat menghasilkan tenaga sebanyak compound2 organic (cthnya glucose) utk facilitate benda hidup.

Tambahan lagi, kita takbleh sesuka hati amik ammonia dan satu substance lain utk react. Masih ada laws of entropy dsb utk dipatuhi. Reaction2 yg melibatkan ammonia dgn substance2 yg bukan organic tidak menghasilkan cukup tenaga utk facilitate kehidupan.

would u think that this living entity would or must have in their system an innate or  certain metabolic/biological pathways /mechanism to comply with the  existing rule of bio/chemistry / physiological principles that are actively governing our universe?

Any living entity must adhere to the laws of Physics in this universe. The laws govern how the things inside the universe behaves. It is absurd to say that a living entity does not comply with the laws of the universe. Such thing would not exist. Even if we find something new, that something new must, without fail, adhere to the laws of the universe. If we find something totally new that seems to contradict the laws of the universe, the discovery itself is not contradicting the laws of the universe, it is our understanding of the universe that is flawed.

Let me just add that our current understanding of the laws of Physics is enough to tell us that the chances of a colony of 'living organism' which do not use water or does not have carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen as the main elements that builds the organisms or uses elements other than the aforementioned elements in their main metabolic reactions is very VERY VERY unlikely. I'd say almost zero probability.

I think you should start rethinking the definition of an 'organism' before posting your questions.

ibnur

MARS is a dead planet.  Planet Marikh tu planet yang dah mati.  There is no molten core or magma inside the planet.  Planet yang hidup macam bumi ni ada magma, pusat bumi, ada gunung berapi, ada oceanic ridge...yang membekalkan semua macam gas untuk atmosphere.  ini yang membolehkan kita hidup.  

gambar tu confirm ke gambar benda hidup...  entah alien dari planet lain datang planet marikh..  tapi tak mungkin sebab bumi lebih interesting untuk alien datang melawat.

rasanya gambar ti kena speculate jer lebih, entah gambar tipu.

mbhcsf

on the other hand, it's pretty allright to ask anyway.
To question is to grow. So, I have no problem with that. It's the fact that our teacher never stretches our minds into probing a bit further in defining, challenging the concept of "benda hidup" and those ciri - ciri of benda hidup".I think we should encourage people to ask question no matter how silly they might seem. This is what my Prof would say anyway.And look around you, how many lives could have been saved if people would begin to questions anything when they are in doubt? You see卛f a lady, who is smart enough to know that she is diabetic and need to be extra careful in having any invasive procedure don onto her  including any beauty treatment whatever have you, and woulds care to be a little bit critical in her thinking I would probably said that she would anded up comatose now . ( refer : wife org kenamaan comatose after  having some aesthetic procedure done onto her)

so, i could gather from the clause  " which do not use water or does not have carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen as the main elements that builds the organisms or uses elements other than the aforementioned elements in their main metabolic reactions is very VERY VERY unlikely"

basically means that somehow in our rule governed system, the created "living organisms"  have already predetermined biostructure that would somehow designed to comply to all the rules/ principles that governed the universe already.

Beautiful.


You see. It is exactly waht God says in the Quran - in one of those chapters - that every thing has their own measures.


so anyone would like to ask more question???

mbhcsf

MARS is a dead planet.  Planet Marikh tu planet yang dah mati.  There is no molten core or magma inside the planet.  Planet yang hidup macam bumi ni ada magma, pusat bumi, ada gunung berapi, ada oceanic ridge...yang membekalkan semua macam gas untuk atmosphere.  ini yang membolehkan kita hidup.  


oh ..i don't know that you must determine yg sesuatu teras planet ( core ) ada molten magma etc  to define dia planet mati ke tak...

lagi Bro Ib, It's getting more interesting by the day

ibnur

if you study the cycle of benda-benda yanh wujud and hidup on the earth, you will know that for living to survive on a planet is the planet must be 'alive'.

Anyway, if the benda dalam gambar tu alien being dari planet lain, Quran tak pulak menyokong dan Quran jugak tidak membangkang.