The Koran and the Jews

sonny~~

Originally posted by AGG^^IE at 2004-6-8 11:47 PM:


ur a sore loser. Thats all i can say.

concur  ;)

Originally posted by Debmey at 2004-6-14 09:52 AM:
You mean to say that what the Quran says is not true?

YES, as everything else in it, what the Qur'an says about Bani Israel (the children of Israel) is true.

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O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.

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Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).

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And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."

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Ask the Children of Israel how many clear (Signs) We have sent them. But if any one, after Allah's favour has come to him, substitutes (something else), Allah is strict in punishment.

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Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? they said to a prophet (That was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of Allah." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But Allah Has full knowledge of those who do wrong.

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Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

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On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

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We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

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Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

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Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

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And We made a people, considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride).

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We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.

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And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

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O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.


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And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 14-6-2004 at 10:35 AM ]

And again, this is what the Jews who are not Zionists say:

The founding of the State of Israel is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah (Jewish teaching) which forbid the establishment of any Jewish sovereignty since the destruction of the Temple, and commands Jews to peacefully remain among the nations until G-d Himself redeems the world without any human intervention, at which time all Nations of the world will live together in peace.

Two thousand years ago, at the time of the Temple抯 destruction, the Jewish People were put under oath and forbidden by the Creator:

And as for Debmey's Christian Zionism, this is where it stands (I have to repeat because it obviously hasn't sunk into his head.) ;)

"nothing these days tops for sheer sickness the relationship between the Jews of Israel and the evangelical Christians of the United States, all of whom are collectively known as Zionists.
  
This special relationship, which is behind what is perhaps the most heartless and destructive political philosophy of all time (the policy of pre-emptive war), links Jews and Christians in a downright pathological bond in which the two pretend to be philosophical allies while underneath the surface each is working and praying for the utter destruction of the other group.
  
The Christian evangelicals support Israel because it fits their fixated belief that their messiah will only return if Israel is controlled by the Jews. However, when their messiah returns, they believe he will destroy the entire Jewish population, or at least those who don't instantly accept Christ as their savior. The cynical Jews, on the other hand, don't really care what the Zionist Christians think, because they don't believe in Christ at all and are merely contented by the political and financial support brought to them by a group they consider subhuman, but politically important. This is truly a match made in hell, the forging of a powerful coalition of lunatics who together aim to turn the world into a smoldering cinder merely to fulfill their own mutually exclusive and insane desires."
  

http://www.warfolly.vzz.net/youcantlietogod.html

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 14-6-2004 at 11:12 AM ]

Debmey

The Qur'an in Chapter 5: 20-21 states quite clearly: Moses said to his people: O my people!  Remember the bounty of  God upon you  when  He bestowed  prophets upon you , and  made  you  kings and gave you that which  had not been given to  anyone before you amongst  the nations. O my people!  Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

The  Quran goes on to say why the Israelites were not allowed to enter the land for forty years...but the thrust of my analysis is where Moses says that the Holy Land is that which God has "written" for the Israelites. In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term "written", there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness and immutability. And so we have the Written Torah (unchangeable) and the Oral Torah (which represents change to suit times). And in the Qur'an we have "Written upon you is the fast"--to show that this is something that is decreed, and which none can change.  So the simple fact is then, from a faith-based point of view: If God has "written" Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?


The Qur'an refers to the exiles, but leaves it open for return...saying to the Jews that if they keep their promise to God, then God will keep the divine promise to them. WE may argue that the present state of Israel was not created in the most peaceful means, and that many were displaced--for me, this is not the issue. The issue is that when the Muslims entered that land in the seventh century, they were well aware of its rightful owners, and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the present situation shows the fruits of that action--wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis are being killed on a daily basis.

I also draw your attention to the fact that the medieval exegetes of Qur'an--without any exception known to me--recognized Israel as belonging to the Jews, their birthright given to them. Indeed, two of Islam's most famous exegetes explained "written" from Quran 5:21 thus:


Ibn Kathir (d. 774/1373) said: 揟hat which God has written for you

sonny~~

repaste for comparison purpose plz  ;)

MID-EAST STRIFE:
RE-DISCOVERING THE BIBLE'S FORGOTTEN SOLUTION
By Rev. Ted Pike

The raging conflict in the Middle East sparks two essential questions. First: Do the Jews own Palestine? The answer is yes. Scripture makes it clear that the land of Palestine was given by God to the physical descendants of Abraham. (Gen. 12:7, 13-14-17- 11 Chron. 20:7; Acts 7:5)

Secondly- Do the Jews have the right to occupy Palestine? The answer to this question is no! Scripture states that if Israel rejects Jesus, (Yahweh) who brought them into Canaan, He will expel them from the land. They can never lawfully return until they are obedient to their rejected Messiah.

Yahweh's conditional terms of occupancy are bluntly laid down in Leviticus 26-27,33. "Yet if in spite of this you do not obey me, but act with hostility against me, then I will act with wrathful hostility against you ... You ... I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste."

Deuteronomy 4:25-27 continues: "When you do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God so as to provoke him to anger, I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that you shall surely perish quickly from the land ... You shall not live long on it, but shall be utterly destroyed. And the Lord will scatter you among the nations, where the Lord shall drive you."

And in Deuteronomy 58:63-4- "if you are not careful to observe all the words of this law ... you shall be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. Moreover, the Lord will scatter you among all peoples."

In the Old Testament, when Israel and Judah abandoned Yahweh, both nations were exiled from Palestine: Israel by the Assyrians in 722 B.C., Judah by the Babylonians in 597 B.C.

Only abject repentance entitled a small minority of Judeans, under Ezra and Nehemiah, to return from Babylon and again occupy their land of promise. After the remnant Jews' rejection and crucifixion of Christ, they also were scattered among the nations in fulfillment of God's ancient decree.

Since their expulsion under Titus in 70 A.D., the Jews still have not repented. They have not given Christ the obedience He demands.

Who Has Rights of Occupation? Who, then, are the legitimate occupants of Palestine today? When God exiled Judah under Nebuchadnezzar in 597 B.C. He allowed various mixed people, later called Samaritans, to occupy Judea. Such occupancy was not conditional on righteousness. What was important was that rebellious Jews not occupy the land.

Similarly, when God expelled the Jews from Palestine in 70 A.D. He allowed various peoples eventually known as Palestinian Arabs to occupy the land in lieu of Jewish obedience.

Do the Palestinians own the land? They do not. But they do have divine approval, as did the ancient Samaritans, to become tenants of the land until Israel repents.

Someday, out of great tribulation, a remnant of Jews will give God the obedience He demands. Christ will lead this believing remnant back to the land of their forefathers; they will dwell there lawfully, in peace and safety. This will be the only legitimate return the Jews will make to Palestine since their rejection of Christ 2000 years ago. It will gloriously fulfill hundreds of Old Testament prophecies. (Isa. 4:4, 10:20, 59:20; Hos.14:4; Joel 2:18-20; Zeph. 2:7, 3:11-13) Until that time, God calls heaven and earth to testify that unbelieving Jews must remain dispersed, scattered, "wandering" among the nations (Deut. 4:25-27). And yet, as in ancient Babylon, God encouraged them to build, plant,  marry and take root in the land of their dispersion, and to "seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile." (Jer. 29:4-7)         

The proper role for unbelieving Jews is to dwell scattered among the very safe and prosperous Jewish communities in New York, London, Paris, etc. They are not to wrest Palestine from its divinely approved occupants, thus inciting persecution and hatred against Jews worldwide. This timeless principle of "no obedience, no occupancy" was illustrated in the time of Joshua. (Num. 13:25-33; 14:1-45) God invited the Hebrews to occupy Palestine by faith. Yet when unbelief emerged, He refused to let them in. When the people decided they wanted to penetrate the land anyway, God rejected them, ultimately condemning them to wander and die in the wilderness. Only a new, obedient generation (like the later generation under Ezra and Nehemiah) would be allowed to take root in a land dedicated to obedience.

(delete)

sonny~~

interestin tit for tat i must say
koran said this
bible said that
so the see saw goes
the HARDfact remains did outcast imported jews rape PALESTINE based on koran or bible or torah for that matter?
true jews plz stand up   :hmm:

Debmey

The Qur'an in Chapter 5: 20-21 states quite clearly: Moses said to his people: O my people!  Remember the bounty of  God upon you  when  He bestowed  prophets upon you , and  made  you  kings and gave you that which  had not been given to  anyone before you amongst  the nations. O my people!  Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

The  Quran goes on to say why the Israelites were not allowed to enter the land for forty years...but the thrust of my analysis is where Moses says that the Holy Land is that which God has "written" for the Israelites. In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term "written", there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness and immutability. And so we have the Written Torah (unchangeable) and the Oral Torah (which represents change to suit times). And in the Qur'an we have "Written upon you is the fast"--to show that this is something that is decreed, and which none can change.  So the simple fact is then, from a faith-based point of view: If God has "written" Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?


The Qur'an refers to the exiles, but leaves it open for return...saying to the Jews that if they keep their promise to God, then God will keep the divine promise to them. WE may argue that the present state of Israel was not created in the most peaceful means, and that many were displaced--for me, this is not the issue. The issue is that when the Muslims entered that land in the seventh century, they were well aware of its rightful owners, and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the present situation shows the fruits of that action--wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis are being killed on a daily basis.

I also draw your attention to the fact that the medieval exegetes of Qur'an--without any exception known to me--recognized Israel as belonging to the Jews, their birthright given to them. Indeed, two of Islam's most famous exegetes explained "written" from Quran 5:21 thus:


Ibn Kathir (d. 774/1373) said: 揟hat which God has written for you

sonny~~

those judaism jews who follow the koran plz stand up  :hmm:

The term Allah had not even come into existence back then.

That is probably because Moses spoke not Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic, he spoke the language that was spoken by the people in Egypt in his era.  The Old testament was orignally written in various languages ie Aramaic or Hebrew then translated to Greek then English.  Jesus spoke Aramaic.  Aramaic and Arabic are semitic languages thus if you read the Aramaic bible, you will the word "Ilah" (Aramaic) for God and in Arabic bible the word Allah for God.  http://www.aramaic.org
http://www.albushra.org/varia/allah.htm

Koran comes into existence hundreds of years from Christ and thousands of years of the Torah. Diaspora was prophesied long long before Koran.

That's right.  The diaspora was a sort of punishment for the Jews for being the chosen people and yet disobeying God's commandments.  Jeroboam and the golden calf, Rehoboam, Ahad and Jezebel etc stories from Elijah and Ezra and denying prophets sent to them.  The rulers of Israel did evil and the last one being Hosea until the Assyrians conquered them.   Jewish leaders are doomed to be evil to their people and neighbours despite God commanding them to keep to His commandments and do no evil.

The Arabs lost their land. Not the other way round. Yes Israel had been demanding peace commitment from its Arab neighoburs via negotiation before withdrawal for 37 years.

The Arabs lost WB and Gaza during the six days war.  The UN has asked those lands to be returned which Israel agreed but has not observed until today.  The Arabs in Palestine are not just Muslims, there are 2-3% of Arab Christians who are in the same boat as their Muslim brothers just because they are Arabs.
www.albushra.org a website by a Jerusalem Arab priest.

Debmey

What that site didn't tell yu is that Muslims do not want to recognise a Jewsih state and wanted the whole of Israel destroyed and it also did not tell yu that the so called Palestinians today never existed until the 60s.

Lilrosie,

Welcome aboard. Not bad for a first post. Keep up contributing to Cari.

The diaspora had been prophesied and laid out as stated in the Deuteronomy. Foreign legions would return the Jews back to Israel had been fulfilled.

Israel was proclaimed as a result of massive Arab hostility and persecution. Arabs refuse to share. They lost WB & Gaza as a result of their aggression. Israel made it a negotiation chip in accordance with UN Resolutions which clearly stated they are not to unilaterally withdraw without peace commitment from its neighbours. In this regard, Arab states renounce military campaign however sponsored terrorism. Israel regard this as non-peace approach and thus appealing for total eradication of terrorism for 37 years. US Roadmap requires only 1 criteria be met that is disband terrorist factions & clamdown militants. This, they have not commit. Israel had done its part as always and as usual.

Christians in Palestine are diminishing. Bethlehem is the stronghold of Christian population but not anymore. It is declining and fast going extinct under PA rule.

Hi Adm,

Thank you for the welcome note.  

What that site didn't tell yu is that Muslims do not want to recognise a Jewsih state

No body said that.  Actually, Arafat himself has publically recognised the state of Israel.  The Palestinians know that it is no use to cry over spilt milk, what they want is a state of their own which was proposed in the peace process being the West Bank and Gaza (land for peace).  Unfortunately, Israel keep building the illegal settlements in these areas and have been giving money as encouragement to the settlers to settle there.

it also did not tell yu that the so called Palestinians today never existed until the 60s.

The state of Israel existed after they self claimed independence when the UN partitioned Palestine into Jews and Arab state.  The reason the Arabs rejected the plan was because at that time the Jewish people were only a minority living in about 6-7% in the whole Palestine.  With the partition the Jews were given more than 50% than required, that means the Arabs already living in the area given to the Jews have to either live there or move out.  Of course, Palmach, Haganah, Irgun, the Stern gang have decided the Arabs move out.

If the Palestine have only existed in the 60s, then the British Mandate Balfour Declaration dated in 1917, the San Remo agreement 1920 and the British White Paper 1922 have been all using a name of a country that was non-existent when they became symphatetic to the Jews and let them migrate to this mid east place.

Christians in Palestine are diminishing. Bethlehem is the stronghold of Christian population but not anymore. It is declining and fast going extinct under PA rule.

Actually, you are mistaken.  Israel sees Arabs as Arabs no matter if they are Muslims or Christians, or Bahai or Zorostians.  The Arab Christians are being lumped into the Arab Palestines and as a result they get the same mistreatment.  The founder of PFLP was an Arab Christian, George Habash, the Palestinian movement opposed to political settlement with Israel.

With Israel occupying Jerusalem and Betlehem, Arab Christians are prevented to go to these holy places for praying by the IDF.

Little Rosie - you're not Debbie are you?

you post like debbie.

Debmey

No body said that.  Actually, Arafat himself has publically recognised the state of Israel.  The Palestinians know that it is no use to cry over spilt milk, what they want is a state of their own which was proposed in the peace process being the West Bank and Gaza (land for peace).  Unfortunately, Israel keep building the illegal settlements in these areas and have been giving money as encouragement to the settlers to settle there.

Really? So why is the PA manifesto still claiming the whole of Israel?

Lilrosie,

Arafat himself has publically recognised the state of Israel

His recognition of The State of Israel as a precondition to kickstart the process of Oslo Accords was jeopardised by his walking out of Camp David and started the Intifada. He was chided by Prince Bandar and Jordanian King as they questions whether Arafat's role is helping the Palestinian people. Ehud Barak offered almost all of the territories. Prince Bandar blamed it entirely on Arafat. Arafat still has not recognise Israel.

Haganah, Irgun, the Stern gang have decided the Arabs move out

These groups started out by defending Jewish settlements against Arab attacks. Haganah failed to prevent slaughters in Safed & Hebron. Haganah split and Irgun was formed in defiance of Haganah's restraint policy. Later saw Irgun split out and Stern Gang was founded to continue reprisals against Arabs & force British to change its policy of an ideally mixed nation of Jews & Arabs.

If the Palestine have only existed in the 60s...

I think you've mistaken Debmey's point. There were no Palestinians as an identifiable entity/race until Jordan & Egypt relinquished control of these areas. The area was populated by Jews & Arabs before the arrival of immigrant Jews(brought in) and immigrant Arabs(illegal immigrants).

With Israel occupying Jerusalem and Betlehem...

Bethlehem is under PA control.

Arab Christians are prevented to go to these holy places for praying by the IDF

It was only under Israeli law that people of all religions are free to worship any religion they wish in public. Before 1967, Jews were not allowed up Temple Mount which is the holiest place in Judaism where Arabs used to urinate on the Western Wall. It was since the start of intifada worshippers from occupied territory were prevented from visiting on the ground of public safety.

Debmey

The state of Israel existed after they self claimed independence when the UN partitioned Palestine into Jews and Arab state.  The reason the Arabs rejected the plan was because at that time the Jewish people were only a minority living in about 6-7% in the whole Palestine.  With the partition the Jews were given more than 50% than required, that means the Arabs already living in the area given to the Jews have to either live there or move out.  Of course, Palmach, Haganah, Irgun, the Stern gang have decided the Arabs move out.

The state of Israel existed three thousand years ago.
Many of the Arab were living illegally on Jewish land back in the 40s. The Jews have the title rights to those land, thats why they were accorded to Israel by the UN.  

If the Palestine have only existed in the 60s, then the British Mandate Balfour Declaration dated in 1917, the San Remo agreement 1920 and the British White Paper 1922 have been all using a name of a country that was non-existent when they became symphatetic to the Jews and let them migrate to this mid east place.

The word Palestine was name as a region, not a state.