What role does a muslim woman take in Islam?

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by neostream at 2004-9-3 11:37 PM:


in real life, there would never be that scenario.
we respect our parents (in laws included)

so that is only in your sick imagination my friend...

life is too precious to think of such th ...

Never happen you say... ... I have a co-worker who relayed to me his story about his sister, which was similar to the scenario i painted earlier. Just  that he didn't say anything about step2 but he did say that she was later divorced by her husband.

Anyway, you are missing the point completely. The point was, what happens when the wife still does not obey/summit to you even after the husband goes to step 3, and beats her? Should he continue to beat her?

Sephiroth

by neostream

Maksudnya : untuk memberi peljaran kepada isteri yang dikhuatirkan pembangkangannya haruslah mula-mula diberi nasihat, bila nasihat tidak bermanfaat barulah dipisahkan dari tempat tidur mereka, bila tidak bermanfaat juga barulah dibolehkan memukul mereka dengan pukulan yang tidak meninggalkan bekas.

Bila cara pertama telah ada manfaatnya janganlah dijalankan cara yang lain dan seterusnya.

part mana yang hang tak paham ni?  

Kalau sudah disuruh pukul, samada tinggal bekas ke tak tinggal bekas tak mustahak. Yg mustahak adalah, wanita boleh dipukul.

Dlm masyarakat Indian, seseorang lelaki yg memukul wanita akan dipandang rendah kerana perbuatan dia.

Dlm masyarakat China, perbuatan memukul wanita adalah sesuatu yg menghinakan dan keluarga si lelaki akan dikatakan tidak mengajar lelaki tersebut dgn "proper manners" (kurang ajar) kerana perbuatan dia.

Dlm kedua2 masyarakat, hanya kanak2 sahaja dibenarkan dipukul kalau bersifat kurang ajar utk mengajarnya. Itu pun kamu lalai. Ini menunjjukan yg masyarakat kamu dan masyarakat kami (Asians) jauh berbeza.

aku dah kahwin 4 tahun dan tak ada pun pukul pukul.

Belum lagi ... tunggulah esok lusa bila kamu sudah muak dgn isteri kamu ataupun berjumpa dgn bakal perempuan simpanan baru. ;)

4 tahun tu masih baru. Di syarikat saya, seorang lelaki yg berkahwin dgn seorang wanita selama 12 tahun dan menpunyai 3 orang anak lelaki buang talak kpd si isteri hanya kerana dia tak setuju dgn cadangan si suami yg anak sulung mereka diperhentikan sekolah utk menbantunya jual burger di warung.

an equal to men...

i think in islam... men are supposed to be guarding and protecting their women... but women have the sam rights to men...

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 3-9-2004 10:17 PM:


Lets take this scenario

Husband don't like his wife's father. Husband goes to work and the wife visits her fathers. Husband dislikes her action.

Step 1. Husband tells wife ...

if that scenario happens to u, what will u do?

neostream

kalau bukan org islam pun ramai wife beater
tak kira bangsa, ugama etc

janji aku tak pernah pukul bini aku

kid

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 3-9-2004 02:10 PM:

Wrong ... not same.

In Indian and Chinese society, if a man cannot perform his duties properly, the women have the right to drag his sorry butt to the court and demand a divorce. In Muslim society, men have full right whether or not to give his wife divorce even if she asked for it.

Sephiroth, before boasting something that you dont know, learn the thing first. You just made false accusation :no: .

In Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

1. The right and duty to obtain education.

2. The right to have their own independent property.

3. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

5. The right to express their opinion and be heard.

6. The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

7. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

8. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him. (pls note that God deeply frowns upon divorce as a solution unless there is hardly any other alternative but it does not mean that men have more right to divorce their wives than women do.)

9. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

10. The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

11. custody of their children after divorce.

12. to refuse any marriage that does not please them

and more...

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by cekpoin at 2004-9-4 10:52 PM:

if that scenario happens to u, what will u do?

You have no right over another human being... Wife have a right to visit her daddy anythime she wishes.
If i dislike my wife from doing something, i would just inform her and if she still does what i dislike then i will just accept it, it her prerogative.

But Quran gave clear instruction to beat your wife if she disobeys you. It is still a crime and very un-manly to beat a women even if you have SOP(Standard Operation Procedure) to follow.

FaithHealer3

Originally posted by loukas at 2004-9-4 03:07 PM:
an equal to men...

i think in islam... men are supposed to be guarding and protecting their women... but women have the sam rights to men...

In Islam, women don't have the same right as man do... no need to lie, its a fact.

AL-BAQARA
Q2:282
snip.. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember... snip

Sahih Bukhari.
Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.

Originally posted by FaithHealer3 at 2004-9-5 06:12 PM:


In Islam, women don't have the same right as man do... no need to lie, its a fact.

AL-BAQARA
Q2:282
snip.. And call to witness, from among your men, two witness ...

And this is what the bible says about women's rights:


Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

But since FH3 is not a christian and not a Muslim and not anything else (being a  self-confessed agnostic) and we don't know what faith he is a healer of, then he will  agree with neither about women's rights.

CatLady

Selamat sejahtera night ..

Let see...If I can just put it in simple words


Women in Islam will be,

1. Wife, and mother,
and as a friend, a lover and partner..

2. Beaten with stick if refuse s_x with husband, according to Muhammad(saw)
let me see..which hadith or Al quran phrases u take tat form..

from wat I know..If a husband wants the wife..
but the wife deny him without any reason..for example sick, tired, period..(most of it cause of health)..Allah swt akan murka, semua malaikat akan mengutuk wife sehinggalah hubby meredhakannya..

kalau kes..macam mendera wife dengan alasan yang U quote...
tanpa menghiraukan masalah masalah wife...
This part hubby jugak yang salah..sebab deny the problem...
there no such thing as hubby boleh sepak tendang sesuka hati...

Bila kita mengambil petikan hadis or Al Quran..kita kena baca semua ayat dan fahamkan..kita tak boleh ambik satu baris je..tu ayat gantung tu..
That makes people confuse...

3. Allow husband to marry four wives.
I'm not against poligami..mmg hubby di bolehkan untuk berkawin hingga 4 org..
ia adalah untuk mengelakkan dari maksiat..
But bukan dengan sewenang wenang ye..nak nikah
bila baca ayat An nisa ..kena baca sampai hujung..iaitu " kenalah berlaku kepada semuanya..jikalau tidak mampu cukup lah satu"
so..hubby mesti boleh berlaku adil..dr segi emosi, fizikal dan batin.
kalau tak mampu nak wat..tapi nak nikah jugak..anything happen..pihak hubby jugak kena pikul..
Kalau mengikut Nabi Muhammad SAW..baginda hanya menikah kembali bila isterinya Siti khadijah  meninggal dunia..dan hanya bernikah dengan janda kecuali Siti Aishah.

4. Must accept husband word as law in the house
u mean there is no place to say no..?
Even nabi Muhamad SAW discusss with his wifes in any matters..
ask for their opinions and sugesstions...
If the words is wise , their is no doubt for the wife to accept it..
If the words is bad or doubtfull, wife still have the right to deny or discuss...
depends on the situation..

For example:
kes1:
Hubby suruh tutup aurat..wife tak dengar..[so wife bersalah]
kes2:
Hubby suruh pakai skirt pendek untuk bawak ke parti..wife tak mahu [ x salah untuk wife membantah and argue secara baik..kalau tindakan tak elok dilakukan oleh hubby..so hubby bersalah]


5. Can be divorced if husband said so
no doubt about it...divorce words is on the tips of the hubby lips..
so hubby's..think rationally......
But a wife boleh tuntut fasakh bila mereka digantung tidak bertali ..tanpa memberi nafkah ...

6. Ok for husband to have s_x with slave girls
This one is..from zaman arab jahillilah..
ok..this one I wanna make a correction..
slave gal...is as a gal who work in a family .
not given any salary .. just providewith  food and clothing..
and they were bought.and they devoted their life to their owner..

Nowdays ..there are no such things as slave gal..
so it doesnt count if they have s*x with maid ( org gaji)
still jatuh hukum berzina.

Dear night...

kalau nak explain detail..terlalu panjang.
Sebenarnya, tak susah menjadi wanita muslim..
seorang wanita muslim yang sejati..mesti tau pahala dan dosa..
yang perlu diikuti dan dielakkan...
Ia akan jadik susah..bila timbul ketidak fahaman..dan ditambah lagik dengan ideologi ideolagi yang bermacam macam...
Taraf wanita dalam islam adalah tinggi...yang merendahkannya ialah manusia itu sendiri..

neostream

CatLady terima kasih.

aku nak tunggu jawapan apa lagi depa nak merepek sini...

Sephiroth

by loukas

i think in islam... men are supposed to be guarding and protecting their women... but women have the sam rights to men...  

Do women have the right to divorce her husband? No ... men do. So they do not have the same rights.

Sephiroth

by kid

Sephiroth, before boasting something that you dont know, learn the thing first. You just made false accusation  .  

When you talk, you qoute from your fairy tale books - Al Quran and Hadith. When I speak, I qoute from everyday happening in your society. One deals with fairy tale and another deals with facts.


In Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

Rights, heh? Let's see ...


1. The right and duty to obtain education.

Yet there is a law which states that Women cannot leave the house without a male escourt. How are they going to get proper education if they were escourted everywhere?

2. The right to have their own independent property.

Which usually goes to her husband upon marriage just like what happened to Muhammad's first wife. Who handle the business after their marriage? Khatijah? Nope, Muhammad.

3. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

The word here is need to. Most men will not allow their wives to leave the house because in Islam, women are not allow to leave the house without a male escourt.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

Meaning?

5. The right to express their opinion and be heard.

Yet in nations like Pakistan, Afghan and Africa, women are still fighting to get the right to vote. ;)

6. The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

Which contradicts with no. 3. When there is not enough provision from the husband, she will ask him to allow her to work. He will take it as an insult that he is not providing enough provision and beats the crap out of her.

7. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

Most fathers will negotiate the marriage terms which is why such things as Honor Killing happens where a father afraid that his daughter is spoilt before marriage and kills her.

8. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him. (pls note that God deeply frowns upon divorce as a solution unless there is hardly any other alternative but it does not mean that men have more right to divorce their wives than women do.)

Women's right is to ASK divorce. Men's right is to GIVE or NOT TO GIVE. The women are Men's personal belongings, just like the cows and sheeps; it is HIS decision whether he want to throw it away or not.

9. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

Maybe ... never heard about this before.

10. The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

;) No comment. I have never slept with any Muslim (or any others for a long time for that matter) to comment about this. Only one who could say they did have satisfaction is the women themselves.

11. custody of their children after divorce.

Women do have the custody of the children, at least I have seen cases of such. I will accept.

12. to refuse any marriage that does not please them

And get killed in the process by the man she refused OR get killed later in a honor killing when a man (her husband or the male family members or even her own father) suspect she have an affair with someone else. ;)

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-9-6 08:37 AM:
by kid

Sephiroth, before boasting something that you dont know, learn the thing first. You just made false accusation  .  

When you talk, you qoute from your fairy tale books - Al Qur ...

Seph..you have been very nasty towards Islam and Muslims in this forum. You have on many occasions butt in and ridiculed Islam when most of the time the debate is between Muslims and Christians, especially. For no rhyme or reason you have come in and intervened and  injected your poison and unleashed your vent up anger towards Islam & Muslims. However, you are free to do so since this is an open forum...but sometimes we cannot help but wonder....are you and the faith that you hold 'qualified' enough to challenge Islam?  

We have very seldom attacked or ridiculed Hinduism.  The quotes and url below is not done to spite or to challenge Hindusim because there is nothing to challenge ..... but to wake you up from your dream so that you will face reality.

;)Also, you can click "previous chapters" and "next chapter" to get really awake. And pls click the "table of contents" - you can see that it is written by Hindus themselves.

Regarding the religion referred to as `Hinduism', JAWAHARLAL NEHRU said in his "THE DISCOVERY OF INDIA" (Page 37):

"HINDUISM as a faith is vague, amorphous, many sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other."
________________________________________

DR. LAKSHMI'S ADVICE TO BRAHMIN WOMEN

Dr. Lakshmi, a well known gynaecologist and social worker from Delhi, and who herself is a Brahmin (and married to the age of 37), suggests that Brahmin women should come out of their shells and act their own since she claims that their corroded thoughts won't save them at all.

Dr. Lakshmi again claims that most of the women who get married after 25 are not virgins. (Most Brahmin women do not get married until they are 30). For this long delay the Brahmin male is responsible for finally getting a SECOND HAND SPOUSE. She challenges that abstention from sexual activity is against the nature of the human physical body. She also says that it is the responsibility of the society to get them married quickly as in other religions.

She says that if you are a Hindu woman you cannot love anyone you like and you cannot marry anyone whom you choose. Your birth sign (stars) should match your mate's birth sign. In addition you should meet the unbearable dowry demand.  



This is the url:

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/politics/awake/awake6.html

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 6-9-2004 at 11:29 AM ]

Inequity and degradation of women are sanctified in the Hindu religion. Manu Smriti says:

" Never trust a woman.
Never sit alone with a woman even if it may be your mother, she may tempt you.
Do not sit alone with your daughter, she may tempt you.
Do not sit alone with your sister, she may tempt you.

Again the same Manu Smriti continues:

"Na stree swadantriya marhathi".
"No liberty for women in society".

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

Seph..you have been very nasty towards Islam and Muslims in this forum. You have on many occasions butt in and ridiculed Islam when most of the time the debate is between Muslims and Christians, especially. For no rhyme or reason you have come in and intervened and  injected your poison and unleashed your vent up anger towards Islam & Muslims. However, you are free to do so since this is an open forum...but sometimes we cannot help but wonder....are you and the faith that you hold 'qualified' enough to challenge Islam?   

What is there to challenge Islam about? As far as I know, Islam is not a true religion, Muslims are never a true followers of anything and you people probably not finished reading your own holy book or even those who have, you not capable understanding it thoroughly.

As far as I know, you people are blind rats following another blind rats. You don't know your religion but forced to follow it by your society, parents, your Mullah and such. What qualification do you have to face me? ;)

We have very seldom attacked or ridiculed Hinduism.  The quotes and url below is not done to spite or to challenge Hindusim because there is nothing to challenge ..... but to wake you up from your dream so that you will face reality.

Reality is this ... Islam is NOT words of God nor religion of God. That is facts.

ALL Religions and teaching which comes from God through Man have ONE characteristics in common - It promotes a Proper Life in this world and it do not burden Man with thoughts of Afterlife.

Islam burdens its followers with thoughts of Hell and Afterlife to the point of that they do not bother about living a proper life. That is why so many of your race willing to jihad and commit suicide in order to get into Paradise.

I'm awake ... are You awake?

Also, you can click "previous chapters" and "next chapter" to get really awake. And pls click the "table of contents" - you can see that it is written by Hindus themselves.

What I know is in my heart. I trust God and God alone. If He choose to teach me something, He will do so whatever way He pleases. Words and propaganda of Muslims disguise as Hindus means nothing to me.

Regarding the religion referred to as `Hinduism', JAWAHARLAL NEHRU said in his "THE DISCOVERY OF INDIA" (Page 37):  

"HINDUISM as a faith is vague, amorphous, many sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other."

Who is Jawaharlal Nehru? A politician who backstabbed Mahatma Gandhi and responsible for spilitting India into 3 parts - India, Pakistan and Bangladesh just to kiss Muslim's sorry butt.

It seems the history is about to repeat itself with Manmohan Singh ...


She says that if you are a Hindu woman you cannot love anyone you like and you cannot marry anyone whom you choose. Your birth sign (stars) should match your mate's birth sign. In addition you should meet the unbearable dowry demand.   

So? You believe what some rich broad talk about dowry and caste? She probably loved some idiot but force to marry some brahmin fellow because she didn't have a freaking consciousness to say no.

Dowry, like Caste is personal problem. If someone says he does not care, he do not need to care. I have attended plenty of Hindu weddings and in some occassions, actually did some work like present in ceremonies. There is no issue of Dowries or Caste as far as I know in Malaysia.

As for stars ... that is true. Hindus believe that the rights stars must be present. If it does not tally, then proper ceremonies to plead the Gods will be conducted for better marriage. I bet your "Hindu" friend forget to tell you about that.


by KENNKID

Inequity and degradation of women are sanctified in the Hindu religion. Manu Smriti says:

" Never trust a woman.
Never sit alone with a woman even if it may be your mother, she may tempt you.
Do not sit alone with your daughter, she may tempt you.
Do not sit alone with your sister, she may tempt you.

Again the same Manu Smriti continues:

"Na stree swadantriya marhathi".
"No liberty for women in society".  

Why don't you give the whole site where you get this information from?

Originally posted by Sephiroth at 2004-9-6 11:52 AM:


Why don't you give the whole site where you get this information from?

???:stp: Didn't I already give you? The paragraph in green above?

Also, you can click "previous chapters" and "next chapter" to get really awake. And pls click the "table of contents" - you can see that it is written by Hindus themselves.

Anyway, here it is again...with pleasure.

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/politics/awake/awake.html

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 6-9-2004 at 12:08 PM ]

When I speak, I qoute from everyday happening in your society. One deals with fairy tale and another deals with facts.

Yet there is a law which states that Women cannot leave the house without a male escourt. How are they going to get proper education if they were escourted everywhere?

And yet, women has become Prime Ministers, ministers and governors in many countries.

Which usually goes to her husband upon marriage just like what happened to Muhammad's first wife. Who handle the business after their marriage? Khatijah? Nope, Muhammad.

Khadijah had no male heir to look after her business and had been looking for an "agent" to carry the business for her.  She had heard of the trustworthy Mohammad and decided to employ him.  Khadijah was a wealthy woman and she was very impressed with Mohammad's conduct ie honesty and later proposed to him.

The word here is need to. Most men will not allow their wives to leave the house because in Islam, women are not allow to leave the house without a male escourt.

And yet, most Muslim women are earning their own money, some even hold higher position than their spouses.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

Meaning?

Meaning here is that if a man or a woman do good deeds, they will get the same amount of "reward", no less or more than one another.  The same thing goes if they individually commit sin, punished the same amount, no less and no more just because one is male and the other is female.

Yet in nations like Pakistan, Afghan and Africa, women are still fighting to get the right to vote

.

Didn't you say that you quote from the everyday happenings, not from the "fairy tale" book?

Which contradicts with no. 3. When there is not enough provision from the husband, she will ask him to allow her to work. He will take it as an insult that he is not providing enough provision and beats the crap out of her.

See above.  It also happens in western society, but of course, there in western society, they dont call it "religous", they call it "abuse".

Most fathers will negotiate the marriage terms which is why such things as Honor Killing happens where a father afraid that his daughter is spoilt before marriage and kills her.

Honor killing is tribal.  You dont need to wait it in a muslim society, it also happens in Hindu and the Sikh communities as well.  It also happens in western society, but of course, there are two sets of law here, in western society, they dont call it honor killing, they call it spouse abuse.

Women's right is to ASK divorce. Men's right is to GIVE or NOT TO GIVE. The women are Men's personal belongings, just like the cows and sheeps; it is HIS decision whether he want to throw it away or not.

Untrue.

to refuse any marriage that does not please them

And get killed in the process by the man she refused OR get killed later in a honor killing when a man (her husband or the male family members or even her own father) suspect she have an affair with someone else.

Again, tribal law.  It does not only happen in Muslim community but also in Indian, Sikh, asian and western communities.

Put it this way, I give you an example, In the Guru Grand Sahib, the Sikh holy book says, the Sikh should not cut their hair, should not smoke, should not drink, should wear the Kara etc, and yet you see some Sikh have short hair, smoke and drink, do not wear the Kara etc, would you say the book is wrong or the person is wrong?

Sephiroth

by KENNKID

??? Didn't I already give you? The paragraph in green above?  

Sorry ... overlooked.

Anyway, here it is again...with pleasure.

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/politics/awake/awake.html

Hmph ... Muslims propaganda again. ;)

Dalits are considered people who are low caste and they are been recruited into Muslims community since 1980s. It is no big deal to find a few traitors to India within the community.

BY SEPHIROTH

Hmph ... Muslims propaganda again.

- what else can you say?...Its all written by Hindus, anyway

Dalits are considered people who are low caste and they are been recruited into Muslims community since 1980s. It is no big deal to find a few traitors to India within the community...

There you go. Now you come to the real crux of your whole belief - that human beings are divided into castes ~ low, medium and high. Traitors to India? How absurd.