Gaia Theory - 1960s

Obersliutenant

btw i have good news and i hope this woud make you pleased Seph. i am here to share with you a small video clip about the effort made to green deserts. Scientists did just this in the Dead Sea where NOTHING grows. Hopefully more nations will adapt this technology to re-green deserts in times to come.  Come to imagine if parts of the Sahara is Re-greened and fertile again... i reckon it woud  certainly it bring down world temperatures


http://www.permaculture.org.au/greening.htm

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 23-1-2007 09:12 AM
i dont know if youre still on this topic Seph, but i've watched a trailer on the movie about the sinking of Japan, was just wondering if that movie was also based on scientific facts ..

Btw,  ...

I'm waiting for report of damages of the heavy rain in Johor. They expected to be announced next week. It was estimated that damages around 100 million to 130 million in individual damages should have totalled. I couldn't be surprise if the amount of the damage is more. This not including the amount of funds the Government giving to the people to start their lives back.

Well, I hope the Government of Malaysia sit down and take a deep look at this figure and ask themselves WHETHER OR NOT they are capable giving such amount of funding OR whether the people capable of losing that much money on YEARLY BASIS or not.

Respect Mother Nature. Don't make quick bucks by destroying forests and destroying habitats of animals. :no:

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 23-1-2007 09:24 AM
btw i have good news and i hope this woud make you pleased Seph. i am here to share with you a small video clip about the effort made to green deserts. Scientists did just this in the Dead Sea wh ...

Hmmm ... Actually, instead of trying to make desert green, they could do better things with the desert. Like installing miles upon miles of Solar Cells which could provide cheap electricity poor countries around Shara Desert. That's my opinion anyway. :hmm:

Humans shouldn't simply change an eco-system. Even deserts plays a role in the World System. There's no accidents in God's creations. Deserts are created for a purpose also (like increasing the heat which influence the Gulf Coast). Making use of them to generate electricity to power up poor countries could be more beneficial.

Besides, if the desert becomes green, Humans going to jump in there and start planting stuff for food also.

Obersliutenant

I beg to differ Seph... although deserts play a really important role in the ecosystem but I've read somewhere, that deserts throughout the world are Man-made and are actually expanding due to pollution and poor soil management... Deserts are taking over once fertile landscapes and are growing and expanding at an alarming rate... unless this is stopped, with the rise of tempratures due to global warming we may be seeing more and more forests being turned to dust.  In China, the effect was certainly all the more evident

however so, making use of all sun areas with solar technology is a great idea for poor countries to generate cheap electricity

Growing deserts 'a global problem'

Monday, June 20, 2005; Posted: 10:30 a.m. EDT (14:30 GMT)


The largest area of drylands stretches from the Sahara to China.  
Order Gullac and Many Turkish Deserts
Order tasty Turkish deserts from Hesaplibakkal.com. Free shipping great...
store.hesaplibakkal.com Sails In The Desert Australia
Low rates & fast, easy booking at Orbitz. Photos, maps, reviews, more.
www.orbitz.com Desert Session Music Ringtones
Get real Desert Session complimentary ringtones right to your cell phone.
www.real-phone-tones.com DriWater Is the Future of Water
Find out how we are turning deserts into forests and conserving our most...
www.driwater.com  

ENVIRONMENT

Obersliutenant

Heres another interesting article on desertification and how human hands and greed contributed to its expansion..
    by ken grandlund @ 1:31 am
China. Environmental experts in that country are searching for ways to halt the expansion of two major desert regions in its northern districts, deserts whose expansion of 1500 square miles a year (about the size of Rhode Island) is threatening villages and towns as it makes its way closer to the Chinese capitol of Beijing.


While China has always had desert regions within its borders, the current expansion can be tied to the 1950抯 and the Maoist government抯 Great Leap Forward program that attempted to increase the amount of arable land by diverting rivers in the region and forming reservoirs. Also included in the program was the intentional deforestation and over cultivation of lands in that area.


Now with over one billion people, it is easy to understand why China needed to increase food production, but the solution, while briefly successful, has now created a situation where food production is being hampered and all efforts to stave the growing sand dunes have proved ineffective. Sometimes, you can抰 turn back the clock no matter how hard you try.
[url=][/url]
[url=http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060608/news_1n8desert.html]揥e must find ways to live with nature in some kind of balance,

Obersliutenant

transcript for those who cant open the link ....

The process is extremely simple Greening the Desert

Friday, 15 November  2002

They laughed at him and said it couldn't be done. Nothing could be grown in that salt laden dustbowl. But Geoff and Sindhu Lawton had other ideas. They travel the world teaching others how to repair trashed environments that are beyond hope of becoming productive.
In this story, Geoff talks about re-greening the deserts of Jordan. By applying the principles of permaculture, they managed to salvage a heavily salted environment and turn it into a green oasis.
Geoff and Sindhu live and teach at their farm near The Channon, a small community not far from Lismore. Geoff boasts that despite not having a police station or church, The Channon has some of the most tolerant and friendly people in Australia.
Click here for a Flash presentation of the story. [duration 5.18 minutes] (this requires the Macromedia Flash 6.0 plug-in. If your browser does not already have this plug in it will ask you to download it.)


Transcript
Geoff Lawton
So we went in and had a look and we thought 揙h, no!

Sephiroth

You can fix all the world抯 problems, in a garden. You can solve them all in a garden. You can solve all your pollution problems, and all your supply line needs in a garden.

I'm sorry to say this but I'm not supportive of that "greening the desert" project. To me, that is not why Gaia Theory was estabilished for.

Like what the Environmentalist from China have said :
[Qoute]
揥e must find ways to live with nature in some kind of balance,

Obersliutenant

you have a good point, but how are we going to stop the enlargening and expansion of deserts due to human's destructive habits ?

as a matter of fact, Israel started their own Aforesteration project decades ago, way back in 1964, woud like to hear your P.o.v regarding that ...

[ Last edited by  Obersliutenant at 26-1-2007 09:26 AM ]

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 26-1-2007 09:24 AM
you have a good point, but how are we going to stop the enlargening and expansion of deserts due to human's destructive habits ?

as a matter of fact, Israel started their own Aforesteration p ...

IF you know that the desert is expanding due to Human's Habit, then GO and CHANGE HUMAN HABIT. That should be the logical approach.

You know the problem BUT you suggest different and useless approach, for what? As long as Human Habit remains the same, you could know that the desert could continue to expand. So what is the use of wasting millions of dollars fixing the problem when you can prevent it by reeducating the Humans?

Humans nowadays are Eco-Conscious, compare to 1960s. They begins to see the Nature for what it truly is (in most countries anyway) but there are governments in the World who continued to make short-term profit by ignoring the long term effect.

Let not say about USA or China. Malaysia itself is one example of this. Many of the people here have become Environment-friendly people YET the Government continue to allow Logging, levelling up hills and building condos and such. When we ask WHY, they make excuse that it is "Development". Many of the officials in the Government itself have taken bribes to undermine the Laws and Punishment of the Offense itself is LAUGHABLE and INSULT THE COMMON SENSE.

Now, I hope the Government (of Malaysia) could shut up now and take a GOOD LOOK at Johor and the devastation they have caused. They should learn NOT TO PLAY FOOL WITH MOTHER. Because Mother Nature DO NOT NEED HUMANS. "She" could exist without them as "She" did before.

Obersliutenant

Quote : IF you know that the desert is expanding due to Human's Habit, then GO and CHANGE HUMAN HABIT. That should be the logical approach.

You know the problem BUT you suggest different and useless approach, for what? As long as Human Habit remains the same, you could know that the desert could continue to expand. So what is the use of wasting millions of dollars fixing the problem when you can prevent it by reeducating the Humans?

Well said Sephiroth,  im with you on this Gaia Theory however, people( in their natural state of mind) Woud change their behaviour by noticing something extraordinary.   This Technology is certainly changing their state of mind by realising that things CAN be done to stop and reverse desertification otherwise many woud remain demotivated with whatever to do next. For example the Jordanians who were using high pollutant toxic chemicals and synthetic fertilliser before the Australian dude helped them fix their soil. Yes originally people thought it was impossible, but they were proven wrong now yuh? whatever this guy did in Jordan have certainly changed the mindset of the people there. Sometimes you need a really strong trigger to break through certain mindsets otherwise people wont change .

You were certainly right about  Malaysia, too bad our government is just too nonchalant of the real problem behind  the Johore Floods. In Malaysia as you coud see , everything is just too bullet riddled with corruption...

[ Last edited by  Obersliutenant at 26-1-2007 09:55 AM ]

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 26-1-2007 09:50 AM
Quote : IF you know that the desert is expanding due to Human's Habit, then GO and CHANGE HUMAN HABIT. That should be the logical approach.

You know the problem BUT you suggest different and u ...

Sorry, there is definately difference in our opinion in this matter. You are still think of solution to fix the problem, while I speak of preventation.

ONLY when people have stopped logging, deforestation, massive use of fossil fuel, contaimination of toxic waste etc, then we can do something about solving the problems we had caused.

Right now, even if those two have some how made the desert green, it will be USELESS. Somewhere, in another part of the World, a new desert is forming due to deforestation. And when this fellow rush there to save it, another desert will pop up elsewhere.

Mother Nature have "her" own ways of correcting this sort of problems - and the solutions "she" cooked up is what you have seen now in form of Hurricanes, Typhoons, flash floods and desert-expanding. This is necessary to "eliminate" as much problem "she" faces by eliminating as much "agents of destruction" as possible - and in this case, it is humans.

You may think this is fictional, something out of FF7 game of the Planet taking revenge but fact remains that the weather and global conditions are worsening as the year progresses. Soon, the Planet doesn't need humans anymore and new species could take over, the same way Mammals have taken over the domination over Reptiles.

Humans ... thread carefully. :hmm:

Obersliutenant

but certainly you too believe that countries should support the Kyoto Protocol now wouldnt you ? Kyoto certainly is a solution to solve gas emissions ... your proposal for solar energy was an excellent choice and it is certainly a solution , an alternative to the problem of a trend using pollutants... developed countries are using bio diesel for an alternative fuel source, those efforts are certainly too a solution ... and howabout ' green technology ? cars that produce 0% harmful gas emissions, certainly these are solutions that we should support in hope of a green revolution in times to come.

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 26-1-2007 12:06 PM
but certainly you too believe that countries should support the Kyoto Protocol now wouldnt you ? Kyoto certainly is a solution to solve gas emissions ... your proposal for solar energy was an exc ...

Don't just make solutions; study the impact of the solutions which have been proposed as well.

The best solution MUST be acceptable for both Humans AND other lifeforms. We can manipulate the Nature but it must be in a way that other lifeforms do not have to suffer for our needs.

Using the vast deserts to generate solar energy (which I'm surprise why no one thought about it) could be an excellent way for poor countries like in Africa to generate power. Animals in the desert which evolved to live there doesn't affected much by it, unless you're talking about them using this places as shades during daytime.

Also, the needs of maintenance and control over this Solar Generators could generate much needed work for Africans. The energy produced here could cut the needs for the poor in this regions to cut down trees for fuel. And cheap energy could mean that UN could introduce better farming methods like greenhouses, modern equipments etc to this poor people. In short time and with use of Human Imagination, things they could do is incredible and the sad episodes like the 1980 World Hunger wouldn't need to repeat again. And all this with less impact on the Environment as possible.

Also, I wonder WHY Humans have not developed Coastal Cities yet (like those underwater cities in Phantom Menace). The power of the wind and water could provide them with energy to run cities and they could even use Nuclear power in a control manner to produce energy. Once again, with less impact on Environments as possible.

Businesses still can nurture through Eco-Tourism. Modern facilities which produce herbs and such materials could be established in each country, promoting Herbal Medicine which cut down the needs of drugs.

In short, Humans must evolve forward in mentality. They should find ways to LIVE with NATURE. Right now, they have mentality of wanting to Dominate everything. This is a Foolish Mentality.

Obersliutenant

If youre the first to come up with solar reactors then thats excellent.. generating power through sunlight can also be made as an economic source for the African Nations with Saharan climates. But ahermm... farming methods Seph woud mean improving the soil fertility as most green houses are better situated for cold cimates because they function to generate heat+humidity.  well you coud write your ideas to a newspaper , or a magazine column, im sure alot of people woud like to know about it ..(:

I've read sth in National Geographic before claiming that the sea woud be an alternative farming area in the future... given to the fact some fish species and Kelp are being farmed and harvested... what do you think ?

Sephiroth

Originally posted by Obersliutenant at 26-1-2007 02:13 PM
If youre the first to come up with solar reactors then thats excellent.. generating power through sunlight can also be made as an economic source for the African Nations with Saharan climates. Bu ...

Kelp I can understand, but let not kill fish, shall we?

Japanese already doing kelp farming, I think. Hell ... they are producing Seaweed-based food (which I must say ... I don't like them much ). Finding alternative methods for farming will be required in the future if they want to keep the World Hunger to a limit.

Humans can built cities on the edge of the shores, taking advantage of the tides and winds for power. As long as we don't see a large scale, industrial areas which requires large amount of energy, I think the energy which this forces produce should be adequate enough for dwelling and small scale farming. :hmm:

Africa doesn't need Solar reactors. They need fuel to power their homes and small scale farming communities. As long as this could be made available, I think Humans couldn't have to see the sad events like the World Hunger.

This is where Science and Technology should be pointed to - for beneficts of Human kind (and improving Nature in the long run), NOT making stupid weapons which can cross one nation and to another. Feeding people and children in needs are more important than to make war in name of some god no one meet.

Obersliutenant

Renewable surf energy; Wave farm to harvest electricity from sea swells [photos]
Hydro press release
By David Burke
May 21, 2005


Hydro's [web site] investment in Scots start-up Ocean Power Delivery caught a commercial wave this week by signing an order with Portuguese energy company Enersis to build the worlds first commercial wave farm to harvest electricity from sea swells.

Located some five kilometers off Portugal抯 northern coast, near P髒oa de Varzim, the EUR 8 million project will use three OPD-developed Pelamis P-750 wave power generation units, capable of producing some 2.25MW. Planned for completion in 2006, the farm will initially supply some 1,500 Portuguese households with electricity - and displace more than 6,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions that would otherwise be produced by conventional hydrocarbon-fuelled power plants.

ENERGY EMERGING: Pelamis wave energy converters rock with the sea (up, down and side-to-side) pumping high-pressure fluid to hydraulic motors that drive electrical generators which produce power fed down umbilical cables to a single subsea cable to shore, where it is tied into the land-based power grid.

A letter of intent has also been issued to order a further 30 Pelamis machines (for a total 20MW) before the end of 2006, subject to satisfactory performance of the initial project phase. If all goes well, many additional sites producing up to a total several hundred MW could be developed along the coast.

Pelamis in Portugal

"This is a major achievement by OPD who have moved from having a seventh-scale model when we invested three years ago to being the leading company in wave energy today, with Pelamis the only concept recognized by EPRI, the US Electric Power Research Institute," says Richard Erskine, head of Technology Ventures in Hydro.

OPD is also in active discussion with Scottish Power, which has announced its interest in installing a wave farm in the UK.

Pelamis in Portugal

The project is being supplied by Ocean Power Delivery

chiKenliTeL

tu kapal selam ke? ~~

Sephiroth

Located some five kilometers off Portugal抯 northern coast, near P髒oa de Varzim, the EUR 8 million project will use three OPD-developed Pelamis P-750 wave power generation units, capable of producing some 2.25MW. Planned for completion in 2006, the farm will initially supply some 1,500 Portuguese households with electricity - and displace more than 6,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions that would otherwise be produced by conventional hydrocarbon-fuelled power plants.  

Hmm ... Good news, indeed. With more and more nations turning their intention toward Nature to provide them for energy, we can get the Environmental problem to a level.

Sephiroth

Source : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_on_sc/france_climate_change

[Qoute]
By SETH BORENSTEIN 20 minutes ago


PARIS - The world's leading climate scientists said global warming has begun, is "very likely" caused by man, and will be unstoppable for centuries, according to a report obtained Friday by The Associated Press.
The scientists

Sephiroth

Sigh ... More "good news"

Source : http://thestar.com.my/news/story ... =nation&focus=1

[Qoute]
Now drought threat looms

By ROYCE CHEAH

PETALING JAYA: Malaysians have barely recovered from the recent floods and the authorities are now warning the people to brace themselves for a possible drought.

With the expected prolonged hot and dry weather, the country is also on high alert for peat and bush fire, with Muadzam and Tebu Hitam in Pahang, and Batang Berjuntai in Selangor, identified as potential hot spots.
[/Qoute]