Rakan karibku seorang Kristian

cipOt_cedOt

Originally posted by katak_gemok at 10-1-2007 12:49 PM



Begini, kalu anda tanya Pope Benedict pasal sumber hukum bunuh utk murtad dalam ajaran Kristian, dia akan cakap itu adalah spt yg disampaikan dalam OT melalui ayat Leviticus 24:16, Deutero ...

ihihih... the contradic in bible never been focus by the cristian them self...

what u say about killing of murtad in Islam only happen in term of intrapretation among the muslimabout Islam teaching. at least muslim people in other hadn admit there is a varies of intepretaion of Islam teahing regarding killing the murtad. one side say "NEVER" and other side say "CAN".

so the different is the contradic is happen not in the source level but in the intrapretation of muslim level which are allow in Islam... muslim at least still can refer to the source (which of couse right now they claim they were but they don't...)

nevertheless the contradic in bible happen in the source level and no body in the cristian world ever trying to commit with such contradiction... and that is wrong... when the source level already corrupted wonder how it can affect the intepretation of the teaching...

naz_1969

Originally posted by budakecik at 10-1-2007 01:31 PM


But in Christ, they belive 3 God?:hmm: This isue is mision imposible for a muslim ...

Well the concept of Trinity has been covered by Al-Quran as followed:

"O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master." 4:171

In fact it is no secret that Prophet Muhammad regularly held council with Christian Missionary in Mosque and sometime offering them the Mosque for their Sunday Mass if the discussion drag until Sunday Morning. He is that tolerant. The same cannot be said on today Islam Generation. We rather kill each other and burn Churches.

So much contreversy on Trinity that some churches domination expurged this from their book.

For further reading on Trinity and Islam view to it can be seen at the following:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1139226324090

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by katak_gemok at 10-1-2007 12:57 PM


Jgn cakap pusing2 saya tanya mana ayat quran yg kata hukum bunuh utk murtad dalam Islam. Kalu ada sila turunkan. Kalu tak ada kata tak ada saja.

err cakap pusing pusing

I respect ur source , no comment from me.

first sekali saya nak tanya , anda tahu kan mengikut kepercayaan umat Islam ,  Quran dan Sunnah nabi menjadi panduan kami.

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by naz_1969 at 10-1-2007 01:18 PM
Salam AA ,

I am not sure if CI is the appropriate column to discuss on Islam relationship with other religions.
Nevertheless , I like to offer an opinion from a layman person like me.

In m ...

err i did not interested in discussing "discuss on Islam relationship with other religions"  in this thread.

I am not sure if CI is the appropriate column to discuss on Islam relationship with other religions.
Nevertheless , I like to offer an opinion from a layman person like me.

U r welcome to open new thread. Jangan marah , I will join u there.

Cuma sini saya cuma ingin berkongsi fakta mengenai kesilapan yang dilakukan. Whe shoukl discuss about it solely if possible.

Originally posted by cipOt_cedOt at 10-1-2007 01:40 PM


ihihih... the contradic in bible never been focus by the cristian them self...

what u say about killing of murtad in Islam only happen in term of intrapretation among the muslimabout Islam ...

Put it this way. First and foremost the bible does not claim to be the Verbatim word of God. It was written by tens of authors during the course of 1500 years. It's pretty logical if the Bible contains error or contradiction because it was written by human beings.

Your quran on the other hand, claims to be the Verbatim word of God. If Malay Muslim thinks that your God favour death sentence to apostates then it must be from God himself. Problem is I can't find that in your quran either.

BTW, your God even allowed apostasy (see 4:137). So, before Malay Muslims start to talk about other religion being contradicting with its own teaching, pls take a closer look at your own. :jeling: :jeling:

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by naz_1969 at 10-1-2007 02:04 PM


Well the concept of Trinity has been covered by Al-Quran as followed:

"O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the  ...

agree jangan serang agama lain , spt banyak yang lakukan terhadap islam.

Kita just sekadar berkongsi fakta betul , tapi klu sharing correct info dikatakan menyerang , I have nothing to say

paler kembang

Di antara
Topik yg ada c & p (300%)
v/s
topik yg bikin sendiri tanpa c & p (topik di sini)

yang mana satu boleh dipercayaan akan peristiwa kejadiannya?

Anak_Nogori

Kan dah kata.

Fitnah tu kalau orang lain..kalau sendiri tu berita benar.

Haram tu kalau orang lain..kalau sendiri tu halal.

Kafir tu kalau orang lain..kalau sendiri tu isle.

Pejuang isle kununnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

Maknanya tuhan anda sundri pon tidak suruh hukum bunuh utk murtad dalam quran. Jadi hukum bunuh murtad hanya dicedok dari amalan Muhd.

Ok. Sila bawa turun hadis yg ada cerita tentang berapa banyak apostates yg Muhd sudah bunuh masa zaman dia sekiranya benar2 zaman Muhd ada hukum bunuh utk apostates.

Bukankah anda sundri bener2 ingin kongsi fakta betul dgn org lain spt #126.

[ Last edited by  katak_gemok at 10-1-2007 02:20 PM ]

petola

Originally posted by cipOt_cedOt at 10-1-2007 01:40 PM


ihihih... the contradic in bible never been focus by the cristian them self...

what u say about killing of murtad in Islam only happen in term of intrapretation among the muslimabout Islam ...

come to think of it kan cipot, orang boleh kata cenggini:

source stable/reliable but --> many/different interpretations.

source not stable/ not reliable --> many/different enterpretatios.

hasil drp kedua2nya sama juga... ie many/different interpretations.

apa agaknya effect drp keadaan itu?

dalam terang biasanya tak sesatlah
dalam gelap pula biasanya sesat

tetapi ada tak keadaan dalam terang pun boleh sesat dan dalam gelap tak semestinya boleh sesat?

truly

hehehe :lol

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by katak_gemok at 10-1-2007 02:18 PM
Maknanya tuhan anda sundri pon tidak suruh hukum bunuh utk murtad dalam quran. Jadi hukum bunuh murtad hanya dicedok dari amalan Muhd.

Ok. Sila bawa turun hadis yg ada cerita tentang berapa ba ...

Tuhan tak suruh? Dan cuma amalan Muhd. Errrr Muhammad SAW pesuruh Allah , menurut kepercayaan umat Islam , segala perbuatan Muhammad adalah benar belaka.

Errrrrrr anda tanya ada ke ayat Quran atau Hadis yang mengatakan sedemikian?. Atau anda mengharap ayat dalam Quran wujud spt ayat dalam bible yang mengatakan bunuh semua tak kira sesiapa (kira baby pun kena bunuh ) just kerana idol?

Quran mengenai Murtad

• "But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers." 3:90-91

• "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way." 4:137

• "A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back... " 3:72

• "Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter... Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish." 16:106-109

Hadis mengenai Murtad

• "Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17

• Narrated 'Ikrima: 'Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" 4:52:260

• The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn 'Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverters from Islam (apostates) to repent. Allah said:

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by paler kembang at 10-1-2007 02:13 PM
Di antara
Topik yg ada c & p (300%)
v/s
topik yg bikin sendiri tanpa c & p (topik di sini)

yang mana satu boleh dipercayaan akan peristiwa kejadiannya?

dua dua jangan percaya buta buta , especially klu ada terbukti fitnah.

Orang bodoh percaya lagi kepada cerita yang terbukti fitnah

[ Last edited by  anti_aktivis at 10-1-2007 02:34 PM ]

From the quran above verses, it seems to me that your God does not advocate death or any worldly punishment for apostasy. Jika hukum bunuh murtad adalah sebegitu significant masakan tuhan anda boleh tak cerita dalam quran?? Malah tuhan anda pon hanya tak ampun org masuk jadi islam dan kemudian murtad berulang kali. Tidak pula sampai suruh sabit kepala pula.

004.137
YUSUFALI: Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.

PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

Cerita hadis ini pon hanya diceritakan dari mulut orang. Bukan first hand account pon. Siapa pon boleh tulis dan dispute. Bukannya dtg dari tuhan anda sundri. Manusia yg tulis. Macam bible juga, banyak authors...

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by katak_gemok at 10-1-2007 02:53 PM
From the quran above verses, it seems to me that your God does not advocate death or any worldly punishment for apostasy. Jika hukum bunuh murtad adalah sebegitu significant masakan tuhan anda bo ...

Minta maaf , anda tak baca posting saya kut?

Tuhan tak suruh? Dan cuma amalan Muhd. Errrr Muhammad SAW pesuruh Allah , menurut kepercayaan umat Islam , segala perbuatan Muhammad adalah benar belaka.

Errrrrrr anda tanya ada ke ayat Quran atau Hadis yang mengatakan sedemikian?. Atau anda mengharap ayat dalam Quran wujud spt ayat dalam bible yang mengatakan bunuh semua tak kira sesiapa (kira baby pun kena bunuh ) just kerana idol?

Quran mengenai Murtad

• "But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers." 3:90-91

• "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way." 4:137

• "A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back... " 3:72

• "Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter... Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish." 16:106-109

Hadis mengenai Murtad

• "Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17

• Narrated 'Ikrima: 'Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" 4:52:260

• The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn 'Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverters from Islam (apostates) to repent. Allah said:

anti_aktivis

Or mungkin anda berharap dalam Quran ada ayat spt dibawah

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13

13
"If, in any of the cities which the LORD, your God, gives you to dwell in, you hear it said
14
that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known,
15
you must inquire carefully into the matter and investigate it thoroughly. If you find that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in your midst,
16
you shall put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, dooming the city and all life that is in it, even its cattle, to the sword.

[ Last edited by  anti_aktivis at 10-1-2007 03:09 PM ]

budakecik

Originally posted by anti_aktivis at 10-1-2007 02:55 PM



Minta maaf , anda tak baca posting saya kut?

Tuhan tak suruh? Dan cuma amalan Muhd. Errrr Muhammad SAW pesuruh Allah , menurut kepercayaan umat Islam , segala perbuatan Muhammad adalah ...

Hukum MURTAD bagi sesiapa yang keluar dari agama Islam adalah dihukum bunuh. Kerana agama Islam adalah agama yang SUCI. Jadi pada mereka yang menganut agama Islam adalah dianggap sebagai bersuci. Dan hukumannya jika mereka keluar adalah dianggap sebagai TIDAK suci.

Tetapi TIDAK pada agama yang lain selain dari Islam. Agama yang TIDAK SUCI pada penganut agama Islam. Bila2 masa boleh keluar masuk. Sebab itu tiada islah hukuman bunuh. Cuma bagi yang MURTAD bagi agama Islam sahaja uyang dikenakan hukuman bunuh.

Sejarah membuktikan dalam kes Saidina Abu Bakar memerangi mereka yang enggan membayar ZAKAT. Kerana zakat itu adalah kewajipan dalam Islam. Jika enggan membayar zakat hendak diperangi apatah lagik jika terkeluar dari agama Islam?

naz_1969

Originally posted by anti_aktivis at 10-1-2007 03:08 PM
Or mungkin anda berharap dalam Quran ada ayat spt dibawah

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13

Suddenly all the religion does look the same when comes to the issue on Apostasy rite?. How coincidence. To save all the trouble maybe God should not download the Law , Taurat , Injil and Al-Quran. Only those who can think ,will get the benefits out of it. The rest just like to kill each other.

anti_aktivis

Originally posted by naz_1969 at 10-1-2007 03:12 PM


Suddenly all the religion does look the same when comes to the issue on Apostasy rite?. How coincidence. To save all the trouble maybe God should not download the Law , Taurat , Injil and Al ...

God should not download the Law , Taurat , Injil and Al-Quran. Only those who can think ,will get the benefits out of it. The rest just like to kill each other.

without law , not much different between us and animal. Kiki.

budakecik

Karena itulah para Fuqaha, bersepakat untuk memberikan hukuman pada orang yang murtad, meskipun mereka berbeda pendapat tentang batasan hukumannya. Adapun jumhur berpendapat mereka harus dibunuh, dan inilah pendapatnya madzahib empat, bahkan delapan imam.
Selain itu ada beberapa hadits shahih dari sejumlah sahabat, antara lain dari Ibnu Abbas, Abu Musa, Mu'adz, Ali. Utsman, Ibnu Mastud, Aisyah, Anas, Abu Hurairah, dan Mubawiyah bin Haidah RA.
Dalam haditsnya Ibnu Abbas RA dikatakan:

"Barangsiapa menukar mengganti agamanya maka bunuhlah ia." (HR. Al Jamaah kecuali Muslim)

Dalam haditsnya Ibnu Mas'ud dikatakan:

"Tidak halal darah seorang Muslim yang bersaksi bahwa tiada ilah selain Allah dan sesungguhnya aku adalah utusan Allah, kecuali (halal) dengan salah satu dari tiga: jiwa manusia dibalas dengan jiwa pula, duda yang bezina, orang yang meninggalkan agamanya dan orang yang berpisah dari jama 'ah." (HR. Al Jamaah)

Dalam riwayat lain disebutkan sebagai berikut:

"Seseorang yang kafir setelah Islam, atau berzina setelah menikah, atau membunuh jiwa yang tidak bersalah." (HR. Tirmidzi, Nasa'i dan Ibnu Majah)

Al 'Allamah Ibnu Rajab mengatakan: Hukuman bunuh untuk keseluruhan dari tiga hal tersebut itu telah menjadi konsensus kaum Muslimin.³⁾

Sahabat Ali RA pernah melaksanakan hukuman murtad kepada suatu kaum yang mengakui ketuhanannya, maka beliau membakar mereka dengan api. Yakni setelah mereka diperintah untuk bertaubat, tetapi mereka menolak, maka Ali RA melemparkan mereka ke dalam api.

Ibnu Abbas RA dalam hadits lain menolak hukum tersebut:
"Janganlah kamu sekalian menyiksa (menghukum) dengan siksa Allah (yaitu membakar)" dan Ibnu Abbas berpendapat bakwa yang wajib mereka itu dibunuh, bukan dibakar, maka khilaf (perselisihan) Ibnu Abbas di sini adalah dalam wasilah (sarana) bukan masalah mabda' (prinsip)."

Demikian juga Abu Musa dan Mu'adz pernah melaksanakan hukuman dengan membunuh terhadap orang Yahudi di Yaman yang Islam kemudian murtad, Mu'adz mengatakan, "Ini adalah hukuman Allah dan Rasul-Nya." (Muttafaqun 'Alaih).

Abdur Razzaq pernah meriwayatkan bahwa sesungguhnya Ibnu Mas'ud pernah menangkap suatu kaum yang murtad dari Islam yaitu dari penduduk Iraq' maka Ibnu Mas'ud berkirim surat kepada Umar untuk memberi tahu tentang mereka' dan Umar membalas suratnya dengan mengatakan:

"Tawarkan kepada mereka agama yang haq (benar) dan bersaksi bahwa tidak ada Tuhan selain Allah, apabila mereka menerimanya maka lepaskanlah. Tetapi jika mereka tidak mau menerima maka bunuhlah mereka."Akhirnya sebagian dan mereka ada yang menerima, lalu dilepaskan, tetapi sebagian yang lainnnya tidak menerima, lalu dibunuh." (HR.Abdur Razzaq dalam kitab Mushannifnya)

Diriwayatkan dari Abi Amr Asy-Syaibani bahwa sesungguhnya Mustaurid Al 'Ajli telah masuk agama Nasrani setelah ia Islam, maka 'Utbah bin Firqid mengirimkannya kepada Ali, lalu Ali RA meminta kepadanya agar bertaubat, tetapi ia menolak maka Ali RA membunuhnya (diriwayatkan oleh Abdur Razzaq).