Need explanations regarding some of Bible verses

hujanhijau

im just saying that how can you believe in a book that have too many errors..

and you stand by the doctrine that is written in the book, thats why i ask you to prove that the doctrine part of the book is not an error like the rest of the book?

you know, if any document have even one error, that document cannot be use in court, it become a void document..

if you say that the bible still have the authority and the doctrine written there could be use, even with all the errors found in the book, then prove it...

its not my responsibility in the first place

Debmey

I have no problem with copyist errors, just as qurans have copyist errors too, does that mean the quran is invalid and therefore void?

Documents with erros does not necessarily render it invalid my fren, it depends on the error.
If its simple figure that bears no consequence to the overall content of the document or gramatical error, no problem. I think you don't know what you are talking about me fren.

So can any muslim in this whole wide world show that doctrines in the Bible had been changed because of copyist errors?

kompia23

Debmey, the authority and the value of your holy bible is being questioned here.

Bro, i have to strictly disagree with you statement here. I believe i have given the reason of why existence of the variance between the translation versions. But do bear in mind that the original texts have no such flaw. It only occurs in the translations. The authority and value of the Bible should never being questioned here. If you want, you should be more specific in detail saying, NIV Version is not accurate at presenting the original text in certain parts. Simple as that. Not to discredit the whole Holy Bible.

If people find ONE ERROR, HOW can you be so sure that the "doctrine" imbued in it is not the SECOND ERROR?

One err due to different versions does not mean that the entire book is false. What you have proven is just that NIV version needs to be revised to be more accurate in presenting the actual text. No less no more than that. If you see NIV. KJV and the rest of versions, the facts presented in them despite being translated by different group of people are heavily similar to one another, except of course for such rare occassion as you have presented.

Do remember translators are merely men which is not perfect.

There are NO ANSWER FROM YOU, DEBMEY. Even kompia agrees that the difference is a MINUTE ERROR, but still, an error is an error. Errors should NOT be in the Book of God, because it would bring doubt.

Bro, doubt occurs only when you find fault in the principles presented. Not variance in the different version of translations.

Regards.

kompia23

can you prove that the doctrine itself is not an error?

Now bro,

As you know we debate about this, not because the original book has the err, but the err in the translation versions. And these only cover small portions of the passages in the whole translation. If you read NIV, KJV, ASB - you will find all the rest of the passages are in unisom. So, why do think the doctrine would be wrong?

Regards.

[ Last edited by  kompia23 at 5-2-2009 01:52 PM ]

Debmey

Translations are translations sir.

So can you prove that even one single Bible doctrine is corrupted due to copyist errors? Can the whole muslim world show us even one?

kompia23

Well said..

hujanhijau

any error in quran is entirely in the choise of word for translation..
there is no error in the arabic verse..
if you ever read a quran, any quran, the tranlation is side by side with the original arabic verse, if you think theres an error in the translation, take a look what the verse really meant in the original arabic language...hope you understad that

while in the bible, its entirely different..if you say that the error is only translation or copyist error, show me the original verse then..

you know what debmey, any error reflect the writer, even though its only grammatical error, it shows that the writer have poor knowledge in it, if the error is in numbers, it shows that the writer is poor in counting...any error counts

when you found errors in the 'book of god', what would you think? god dont know how to count?
we both say that God is alknowing, perfect, almighty... whats about these error then?

Debmey

Truth is, there are lots of errors in the quran, both internal and extrenal.
But I won't say the quran is in error over copyists errors.

hujanhijau

i already told you that in middle east language (hebrew, arabic, greek etc.) theres no capital letter system like in english language right?

Exodus 7
1.And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

John 1
1.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

why does the word god for moses is written in small g and capital 'g' for the word (which you say jesus)? unless your trying to convince others that jesus is 'god'..
although in the middle east language they were both called 'god'

kompia23

This is a good website if you want to see the verse in its original language hebrew... http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_ ... m=2&getverse=Go

any error in quran is entirely in the choise of word for translation..
there is no error in the arabic verse..

Same with the Christian book. The translation is in err but not the original text.

when you found errors in the 'book of god', what would you think? god dont know how to count? we both say that God is alknowing, perfect, almighty... whats about these error then?

Translation is man made. Original book is by God which is without err.

Regards

Debmey

Originally posted by hujanhijau at 5-2-2009 02:42 PM
i already told you that in middle east language (hebrew, arabic, greek etc.) theres no capital letter system like in english language right?

Exodus 7
1.And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I ha ...

And I already told you, the capital was added on emphasis based on the context.

Can any musli tell me how any Christian doctrine had been corrupted based on copyists errors? Cannot answer?

hujanhijau

it was based on the translator believes, not the context..

hujanhijau

it was based on the translator beliefs, not the context..

Debmey

The translator based his belief on context.
I think you muslism are stuck already even in attacking the Bible.
And you still cannot answer me simple question.Can any muslim tell me how any Christian doctrine had been corrupted based on copyists errors? Cannot answer?


cheers

gunblade712

debmey, it is not whether the Christian's doctrine is corrupted or not.

It is the fact that you claimed that the Bible is the Word of God and it is suppose to be free from even ONE error.

If there is only ONE error, then it's divinity is already lost, or you would have to tell me WHY does God makes mistakes?

How can you believe 100% it is from God when it is proven to have mistakes?

Now you all tell me that "the original scripture doesn't contain mistakes, it's the translation problem".

Firstly, the problem I've told you all here is not a mere "translation" problem (in which the choices of words given) but the problem of FACTS given by the book.

Secondly, you all claimed that whatever you hold on to is THE BIBLE, even though debmey might be holding on to the KJV, kompia his holding the NIV, and one Indonesian is holding the Indonesian version of the Bible.

We, the Muslim, have never claimed that an English translation of the Quran IS THE QURAN. we say that it's the TRANSLATION of the Quran and in order to fully understand the book, u need to learn in it's original form. THAT is why we NEVER say that the English translation is THE QURAN.

Thirdly, kompia, nearly ALL of the websites that you gave me told me that the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE IS LOST and you are relying on a copy's copy. How can you be so sure that the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE is none-corrupted when it is lost in the first place?

We can also see that the human hands have tampered with the book. If both of you and debmey claimed that the original is uncorrupted, then what does the original scripture say on 2 Chronicles 2:22 ? Did it say 42 or 22?

If debmey wanna say that he can accept mistakes in the bible and STILL beliefs that the doctrine imbued is error-free, then it is his privilege.

hujanhijau

thanks for the site..but its not complete..
i use this site  http://scripturetext.com

and they really use the same word in exodus 7:1 and john 1:1
you can check it yourself

אלהים

hujanhijau

cant you see whats happening?
the divinity of jesus is the christian beliefs, it is the core of christianity..

christians put the capital letter to suit their beliefs, that is clearly a wrong translation, it is a translation error which change the fact that jesus was not god, it effect the christian doctrine directly, christian actually made their own doctrine..

cant you even think?

Debmey

You see, you strayed from one thing to another because your argument cannot hold water.
In fact, what you just wrote clearly shows you have never read the Bible before.

gunblade712

the arguments remains, debmey.

it is proven that the bible's trust-value is in question.

it is not acceptable to us Muslims to have even a minute error in the Book of God.

You're "counter-argument" on the Quran has also been answered by me.

There is NO ERROR in the Quran.

Debmey

You muslims have your own standards that we Christians don't bother.

But even then, the standards that you tried to impose on the Bible, you passed off even worst because the quran contains lots of internal and external logical errors which is infinitely worst.

peace