Worshiping the Same or a Different God?

Debmey

More Evidence for the Incoherence and Incompleteness of the Qur抋n


According to the 109th Surah of the Qur抋n, Muhammad and the unbelievers did not worship the same Being:

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6 Pickthall

The problems that this Surah poses should be apparent to anyone familiar with both the Qur抋n and the Islamic traditions.

First problem: Whom exactly is this Surah referring to?

(a) The People of the Book (Jews, Christians, perhaps Sabians)?
(b) The Meccan idolaters?

The Qur抋n itself does not specify whom Muhammad is supposed to address this way.

Second problem: Whether it is option (a) or (b) above, Surah 109 contradicts other passages in the Qur抋n which state that both groups were worshiping the same God as the Muslims.

Passages claiming that group (a) worshiped the same God:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62 Shakir

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). S. 3:64

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46 Pickthall

Passages showing that group (b) also worshiped the same God, even though they worshiped a host of other gods and goddesses along with Allah:

If indeed thou ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law), they will certainly reply, "Allah". How are they then deluded away (from the truth)? Allah enlarges the sustenance (which He gives) to whichever of His servants He pleases; and He (similarly) grants by (strict) measure, (as He pleases): for Allah has full knowledge of all things. And if indeed thou ask them who it is that sends down rain from the sky, and gives life therewith to the earth after its death, they will certainly reply, "Allah!" Say, "Praise be to Allah!" But most of them understand not. S. 29:61-63

The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message? S. 16:35

The pagans in the preceding passage were basically repeating what Allah supposedly said to Muhammad:

If it had been Allah's plan, they would not have taken false gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs. S. 6:107

Finally:

Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): We worship them only that they may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate. S. 39:3

In the above passage we see that the pagans

amorist

We Muslims don't worship Jesus as you do.
We Muslims don't worship the sun or moon as the pagans do.

We do not refer to those among the Jews and others who follow the original scriptures  (such as the Nazarenes) in general as disbelievers, but those who worship other  than God (such as those who worship a son of God) are not among those who follow the scriptures given by God. They follow their own scriptures and are therefore not believers that the Quran refers to.

As the Quran points out,

005.072 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

There is no inconsistency in the Quran. Only Christians try to twist the words around!

Debmey

What do you know about Jews. Jews & Christian only worship YHWH.
The Quran does not distinguish what type of Jews or Christians at all and you are merely using your imagination to desperate escape the obvious contradiction in the Quran.

peace

amorist

Well, if you want to worship Jesus, it's up to you. We will worship the one indivisible, inseparable God just as the Jews worship the one indivisible, inseparable God.

Common sense should tell you that if Muslims say there is only one indivisible, inseparable God and the Jews say the same, and both religions come from descendents of Abraham, then both must be worshipping the same God, the God of Abraham.

Christians, on the other hand, have their own version of God(s) that is different from what the Muslims and Jews believe. Christian's God includes a son of God, something Muslims and Jews will never believe in.

But as the verse says, you can worship what you want. We will worship the one indivisible, inseparable God.

Debmey

Common sense tells me that the Quran clearly contradicted itself and there is no way that amorist can explain it away.

peace

amorist

SFE in denial mode again when he finds that his argument against the Quran is faulty and without basis. Anyway, you can go ahead and worship some other god that has a son. It's your right! The verse you quoted tells me to tell you that.

Debmey

W/o basis? Did you not read? Its in the Quran.
The Quran clearly contradicts itself, sura 109 talks contraray to sura 29 while refering to the same subject. Mo must surely be confused.

Originally posted by amorist at 13-9-2003 10:00 PM:
We Muslims don't worship Jesus as you do.
We Muslims don't worship the sun or moon as the pagans do.

We do not refer to those among the Jews and others who follow the original ...

Pauline christians try to twist the words of the Qur'an around because they cannot get themselves untwisted from their false religion.

They are too deeply trapped in the heresies of paul and Roman paganistic doctrines to be freed from deception.

They are not the true followers of Jesus as they have never, and will never practise his teachings and his true God-given Gospel.

They can only make false claims because that is all they can resort to - since their mentor, Paul himself was the source of the same concocted 'declaration'.

They have never been recognized or accepted by Jesus (peace be upon him) and they never will, just like paul was never a disciple of Jesus and never will be.

How can paul be a follower of Jesus after inventing a new covenant which was never prophesied by Jesus?

As long as they believe in the trinity and its fallacy, as long as they believe that Jesus is the 'begotten son of God' and that Jesus the holy prophet of God is 'God', they will only be living in a world full of pretence, fabrication and cunning deceit.

... and anybody following them - was, is and will be living in a world of make belief, divorced totally from the teachings of Jesus, referring only to 'reconditioned' & mistranslations upon mistranslations of false bibles, containing mostly the manipulations and inventions of Roman paganistic monks and paul the heretical falsifier.

So too were those who have departed from this world holding the same convictions  - they too lived in a world of dreams and make belief and have left behind only make-believers and dreamers, to 'pray' for them with make-belief prayers, trusted only by the those who have no other choice but to remain gullible.

Since to get 'untwisted' would cause undreamt-of upheavals,  they can only do one thing - just like that Debmey, that twit, that josh 40 etc etc are doing now in this forum - try their best to distort and falsify God's words of  truth in the Qur'an, to get even -  when the odds are all against them.

Deep in their hearts, they know that they have been duped through all the ages and generations - but they are too bloated and too arrogant to admit their mistake to their trusting, susceptible followers - too proud to  reveal the aberrations of their ancestors of church elders,  priests and popes (for whether they are protestant are catholics, their root is the same - Paul and Rome). It would shake the world and the embarrasment would  cause total trauma.

Living in a fool's paradise, they hope that by some so-called 'miracle', like that  so-called 'apparition' of paul their mentor, they would be spared from disaster.

Fat hopes for them,
for we know that there would be no such miracle, the way that it never happened to paul - for we know that  it was just his invention to get attention and to please  the Roman politicians - for we know that his heart was full of corruption and the only way for him to 'get back' at Jesus  was through his deceptions, abusing Jesus' name throughout the generations.

Satan paul's soul will never rest in peace we know, his invention of  so-called 'Jesus' salvation' which he spread far and wide across the PAGAN nations will only prove him and his followers to be the LOSERS
- just like his defeat and execution, in the hands of  his partners in crime towards God --  the leaders of the then Roman nation.


[ Last edited by KENNKID on 13-9-2003 at 11:50 PM ]

Debmey

Mo was simply trying to appease different people at different times. Thats is the only logic of what was said in the Quran. You will never find such nonsence in the word of God, the Bible.

Notice that Muslims have no answers to what was written so clearly in the Quran.

peace

sonny~~

[quote]Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-13 10:11 PM:
What do you know about Jews. Jews & Christian only worship YHWH.

SONNY:
u're bein deceptive agin ole chap

yahweh is never 2 gods in/as 1 twit twinity god much less 3 gods in/as 1 trinity god.  u can ask any torah abide jews.  they gonna spit at u if u insist yahweh as such.  trust me

thats why the jews demanded the romans to murder jesus in the first place.  they misunderstood his teachings while satanic st. paul is forced to treat jesus as god to appease the romans

nonetheless yahweh is like muslims' allah n unitarians' ONE N ONLY ONE GOD  :bg:

peace


The Quran does not distinguish what type of Jews or Christians at all and you are merely using your imagination to despera ...

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 14-9-2003 at 10:53 AM ]

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-13 09:42 PM:
More Evidence for the Incoherence and Incompleteness of the Qur抋n


According to the 109th Surah of the Qur抋n, Muhammad and the unbelievers did not worship the same Being:

Say: O disbelieve ...

How about we go back to the sources here?  :stp:  Whoever you copied that aricle from obviously did not bother to research what he was talking about.


Tafsir Surah al Kafirun:  Ibn Kathir  (www.tafsir.com)
The Declaration of Innocence from Shirk

This Surah is the Surah of disavowal from the deeds of the idolators. It commands a complete disavowal of that. Allah's statement,

[قُلْ يأَيُّهَا الْكَـفِرُونَ ]

(Say: "O disbelievers!'') includes every disbeliever on the face of the earth, however, this statement is particularly directed towards the disbelievers of the Quraysh. It has been said that in their ignorance they invited the Messenger of Allah to worship their idols for a year and they would (in turn) worship his God for a year. Therefore, Allah revealed this Surah and in it He commanded His Messenger to disavow himself from their religion completely. Allah said,

[لاَ أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ ]

(I worship not that which you worship.) meaning, statues and rival gods.

[وَلاَ أَنتُمْ عَـبِدُونَ مَآ أَعْبُدُ ]

(Nor will you worship whom I worship.) and He is Allah Alone, Who has no partner. So the word Ma (what) here means Man (who). Then Allah says,

[وَلاَ أَنَآ عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ وَلاَ أَنتُمْ عَـبِدُونَ مَآ أَعْبُدُ ]

(And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship whom I worship.) meaning, `I do not worship according to your worship, which means that I do not go along with it or follow it. I only worship Allah in the manner in which He loves and is pleased with.' Thus, Allah says,


[وَلاَ أَنتُمْ عَـبِدُونَ مَآ أَعْبُدُ ]

(Nor will you worship whom I worship.) meaning, `you do not follow the commands of Allah and His Legislation in His worship. Rather, you have invented something out of the promptings of your own souls.' This is as Allah says,


[إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَمَا تَهْوَى الاٌّنفُسُ وَلَقَدْ جَآءَهُم مِّن رَّبِّهِمُ الْهُدَى]

(They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the guidance from their Lord!) (53:23) Therefore, the disavowal is from all of what they are involved. For certainly the worshipper must have a god whom he worships and set acts of worship that he follows to get to him. So the Messenger and his followers worship Allah according to what He has legislated. This is why the statement of Islam is "There is no God worthy of being worshipped except Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.'' This means that there is no (true) object of worship except Allah and there is no path to Him (i.e., way of worshipping Him) other than that which the Messenger came with. The idolators worship other than Allah, with acts of worship that Allah has not allowed. This is why the Messenger said to them,


[لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِىَ دِينِ ]

(To you be your religion, and to me my religion.) This is similar to Allah's statement,

[وَإِن كَذَّبُوكَ فَقُل لِّى عَمَلِى وَلَكُمْ عَمَلُكُمْ أَنتُمْ بَرِيئُونَ مِمَّآ أَعْمَلُ وَأَنَاْ بَرِىءٌ مِّمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ ]

(And if they belie you, say: "For me are my deeds and for you are your deeds! You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do!'') (10:41) and He said,

[لَنَآ أَعْمَـلُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَـلُكُمْ]

(To us our deeds, and to you your deeds.) (28:55) Al-Bukhari said, "It has been said,

[لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ]

(To you be your religion.) means disbelief.

[وَلِىَ دِينِ]


(and to me my religion.) means, Islam.


[ Last edited by The_Criteria on 14-9-2003 at 11:41 PM ]

Debmey

Hahahahahahaha.............. looks like Criteria did not even read the first article on this thread before he cuts and paste.

peace

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-15 03:16 AM:
Hahahahahahaha.............. looks like Criteria did not even read the first article on this thread before he cuts and paste.

peace

1)  I read the original.  It is misleading and someone who knew nothing about nothing authored it.  

2)  I answered the question of who it was refering to in my post.

3)  You should know what tafsir is if you have been "studying" islam for four years.

4)  In either case to the who.  The pagans worshipped Allah with idol intermediaries.  The verse was sent down to let them know that the Muslims would not place a "middle man" between themselves and Allah.  

5)  Revelations are the basis and vital foundation of a religion.  You must have it explained further after you accept the message.  Some things are not mentioned in the Qur'an itself.  i.e.  the steps in making wudhu, however, islam has been completed in our glorious prophet.  Tafsir is explanation by those with knowledge.  Do christians not have scholars and knowledgable people to help explain the message of christianity?  Are there not schools and the such?  Don't be a hypocrite.  

6) How are going to cut and paste someone article and then accuse me a cutting and pasting.  It's tafsir, it is not as though I cut and paste someone else's work.  You haven't posted many "original" articles since you were sfe.

Debmey

But the problem is, the Quran itself never diffrentiates between Christians, you have to add your own interpretation to make sense of the Quran. Surely Quran can therefore be divine.

If you believe that God is  the One, the  Creator, the omnipresent, the omnipotent and not the begotten son and not the Prophet Jesus falsely regarded as the Creator, then we are the same. If not, then your God is just an invention and an invention is not God.

The problems that this Surah poses should be apparent to anyone familiar with both the Qur抋n and the Islamic traditions.

(((Actually, there is no "problems".  Idiots who try to make something from nothing, who have not studied 4 months of Islam, let alone four years, don't understand what they are talking about)))
First problem: Whom exactly is this Surah referring to?

(((This Surah is the Surah of disavowal from the deeds of the idolators. It commands a complete disavowal of that. Allah's statement,

[قُلْ يأَيُّهَا الْكَـفِرُونَ ]

(Say: "O disbelievers!'') includes every disbeliever on the face of the earth, however, this statement is particularly directed towards the disbelievers of the Quraysh. It has been said that in their ignorance they invited the Messenger of Allah to worship their idols for a year and they would (in turn) worship his God for a year. Therefore, Allah revealed this Surah and in it He commanded His Messenger to disavow himself from their religion completely.)))

The Qur抋n itself does not specify whom Muhammad is supposed to address this way.

Second problem: Whether it is option (a) or (b) above, Surah 109 contradicts other passages in the Qur抋n which state that both groups were worshiping the same God as the Muslims.

(((However, christians and pagans worship someone or something else to get to God.)))

Passages claiming that group (a) worshiped the same God:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62 Shakir

(((This verse is quoted out of text.  These are the Jews, Christians, and Sabians who maintained the purity in their monotheism.  i.e.  unitarian christians who denied Allah as having partners.  This verse is referring to some other than the people being referred to in surah 109)))

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). S. 3:64

(((Again, quoted out of text.  Basically, I think this verse is saying "look, you and I both know God is one he needs no partner, and that we should not worship anyone else...."  This was Muhammad's (pbuh) invitation to Christians.)))

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46 Pickthall

(((Again, quoted out of text.  This again was an invitation.  It was instructions not to argue foolishly and about irrelevant issues.)))

Passages showing that group (b) also worshiped the same God, ***even though they worshiped a host of other gods and goddesses along with Allah:***

(((The idiot answered his statement in the very same statement he posted.  You actually follow this idiot's word Deb?  That's funny.  What does that make you?)))

Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): We worship them only that they may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate. S. 39:3

(((Allah is shunning these acts and these are the types of people being referred to in surah 109)))

In the above passage we see that the pagans

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-15 10:54 AM:
But the problem is, the Quran itself never diffrentiates between Christians, you have to add your own interpretation to make sense of the Quran. Surely Quran can therefore be divine.

then make one like it:stp:

Debmey

Make one contradiction like the Quran does and see which is more ridiculous?

AceHand

Originally posted by Debmey at 14-9-2003 00:37
Mo was simply trying to appease different people at different times. Thats is the only logic of what was said in the Quran. You will never find such nonsence in the word of God, the Bible.

Not ...

*tut* asked you to audit the following post,click following url to view the post:
http://forum3.cari.com.my/viewth ... p;page=1#pid1083609
His/Her Reason: he disrespect our prophet..he says Mo

Jizzz... Klong! Klong!

Sephiroth

We don't worship the same God as Muslims do - FULL STOP. I don't see why anyone needs to debate with this question anymore.

And who are the Sabians? First time I'm hearing about them.