Post time 13-2-2015 10:49 AMFrom the mobile phone|Show all posts
Orang yg mempersoalkan hudud jelas sekali gemar berbuat maksiat.
Ada saja pertikaian nak bangkit. Itu tak kene, ini tak kene. Dah bagi tau jelas2 pun nak pertikaikan lagi. Apa kecut sangat dah hati tu takut pada hukum yg tegas? Ni negara Islam. Hormatlah. Warganegara dah bagi pun xreti nak bersyukur. Jangan melampau.
Kalau kata nak jadi zombie tu hang lah tu. Nak sangat. Ni lah dia manusia yang xreti ambik iktibar. Otak hang ni ada masalah ka benci sangat benda baik2. Bukan suruh pancung terus kalau mencuri. Jangan jadi bodoh.
Orang Melayu pun pendatang juga - dari Indonesia semasa Sultan2 Melaka dan Johor berkahwin dgn puteri2 dari Palembang, serta pendatang dari kepulauan Sulu. Tetapi orang India dan China sudah ada di sini sejak abad ke pertama, Buktinya adalah kota2 purba dgn Perak, Kedah, Johor dan Utara Malaysia. Semasa pemerintahan British pun, bukan melayu yg mengusahakan negara ini dari segi Ekonomi dan Sosial selama 500 tahun.
Orang Melayu memerintah berapa tahun? Cuba buka buku sejarah dan kira balik. Islam sampai ke Melaka 1450an dan 60 tahun kemudian (1511), Melaka jatuh kpd Portugis. Kemudian satu persatu kerajaan Melayu lain jatuh ke tangan orang barat dari 1600 - 1700 an dan selama 500 tahun ini, pemerintahan Tanah Melayu dibawah orang barat (Portugis, Belanda dan akhirnya British). Raja2 Melayu jenis tukang makan hasil orang lain je. Hanya sejak 1957 je orang Melayu memerintah dan negara sudah bergolak dgn Indon, bangla, Pakistan dan tak cukup, gorilla dari Africa pun ada. Sana gaduh sini gaduh, kes rogol, bunuh, rompak dan lain2.
Oi kawan - negara ini bukan milik orang Melayu. Nenek moyang kamu pun pendatang juga, faham?
Orang yg mempersoalkan hudud jelas sekali gemar berbuat maksiat.
Kamu tahu apa itu "belly dancing" tak? Orang Melayu kata Tarian Gelek kalau tak salah.
Wanita yg berpakaian ala-bikini dgn loceng hentak berapa banyak akan menari mengoyangkan punggung dan seluruh badan lain. Di Middle East sana, ianya masih popular dan tidak dibuang walaupun Sistem Hudud diadakan.
Jadi kamu masih beranggan bahawa Sistem Hudud akan mencegah maksiat kah? Yang akan mencegah maksiat adalah hati manusia yg dimurnikan, BUKAN sebuah sistem keadilan ABAD KE TUJUH.
LOL , I am not the one who keep on insisting that both handscut off despite lengthy explanation that that is not the case. Now you have beenproven wrong , you do not even have the integrity the apologise but try tochange the issue to me not answering your question. What question? 2 hands cutoff which has been proven to be another bull shit from you. People like youcannot debate in a civil manner because you are just a troll , repeating issuesthat have been explained and refuted.
By truth.8
Whether two or one hands it do not makedifferences. Why I wrote such? Let says for stealing, one hand of chop off…..
So, onehand eating and same hand to wash the after shit (buang air besar)….sound stupid? Godcreated all reason. Why one need to act like God?
Now, yousee why such implementation of hudud do not makes sense.
Maybe youneed to experience …your kids…whentheir hand chop off, for committing crime….than u know the pain how your kidssuffer with one hand….later you realize why not just implemented the normal lawwhich going lock up serve the jail terms…that is logical idea right??
By sam
You stillask such a dumb question? How many times must you be told that hudud does notentail chopping of hands much less 2 hands per your claim. Hudud is the mostextreme of punishment which in most cases not acheiveble as it has stringentconditions that must be met. However you are just too dimwitted to understanddespite being told multiple times even with links that you can read but yourefuse to read such.
Meaning what?Are you saying if a person does hardcore crime which repeating crime…than hududof chopping off the hands or hand?? Whetherone or two…no differences….
The problemis with peoples ……peoples will manipulate law , regardless hudud or modern law..
Will postin below why
By sam:
You arejust repeating the same silly argument that 2 hands are chopped , thereforecannot 'basuh berak'.
By truth.8
Yes yesyes….same hand eating same hand basuh berak..hahahhaha silly....
By sam:
LOL , allyou have are 2 videos from an islamophobe and you believe it hook , line andsinker. That is why I stated that you are just a dimwitted troll. There arenumerous scholarship on this issue but you choose a bigot christian video toargue your case. In short you are just a christian bigot with a shallowunderstanding of almost everything. Do you know that religious leaders inSomalia have already condemn Al Shabab to be extremist?LOL , you don't know because you are just a from in the well.
=====================================
By truth.8
Islamophobe?That is your problem…I can send numerous youtube…of course you will be in denial …as usual..
By sam:
Wow! This again shows your less than average intelligence.Majority of Malaysians are muslims, So far there is no compliance to Hudud.Again I ask : what has Hudud got to do with Afghanistan or Iran? Can you atleast try to appear intelligent.
By truth.8
They havehudud law over there….yet is in state of poverty….if kafir were to be there….thecountry will flourished just like here……The chinese build the economy and themalay admin it…do you think the malayable to build economy power alone? You judge urself lah….of course I seentoo many political from malay ..onerecent case on saiful jubo and liwat …probablygood on that?? Yet you peoples want talk big about hudud when the malays herecould not handle the political …slander and etc…do you think hudud work? It will be disaster….will be manipulated bypeoples….just happening now…iklan bilis kena tangkap rasuah…where is the ikanjerung?? They even can manipulate the hudud ..u got my point…thatwill be great danger in islam…
Why I Do Not Agree With Hudud In Malaysia For a rewritten and revised version of this article, read here: http://buff.ly/1hBVxd6
“Kalau kita cakap kita tidak boleh melaksanakan Hudud kerana ia tidak sesuai, ia merupakan syirik besar dan kita akan dicampakkan ke dalam neraka.” Translation: “If we say Hudud law is not suitable in Malaysia, we are committing shirk and we will be thrown into Hell.”
Those were the words that made me cringe in the lecture hall during my 3 hour Islamic Studies class. It appalled me to know that some lecturers don’t teach you how to think, but rather, they teach what to think. With no explanation, no nothing, the ustaz that lectured the class just went on to tell everyone that if we don’t think Hudud can be applied to Malaysia, they were meant for Hellfire for sure. He didn’t even bother to understand why people did not agree to it. He merely just said whoever does not agree is “our enemy”.
As usual, people result to fear-mongering to get others on their side. I wonder when will they ever notice that the way they preach creates more apathy against Islam and fear of God within Muslims, instead of acceptance of Islam and love for God. I mean, how many of us can truly say we are doing something because we love God and not because we are afraid of Hell? Wallahualam.
See, a lot of Malaysians, especially the conservative Muslims, misunderstand when some Muslims disagree with the implementation of Hudud law in Malaysia. They think that we disagree with it, or even worse, disbelieve in God’s divinity. Most of the time, however, this is not the case. A lot of Muslims (me included) disagree with the implementation of Hudud law, not the law itself, because we don’t trust people, not because we don’t trust in Islam. We disagree in fear that God’s divine law will be manipulated by the evil, unjust, corrupted and tyrannical to achieve their own selfish agendas. We disagree in fear that it will taint the justice that it was supposed to serve. When a divine law is being handled by petty human beings like ourselves, injustice is bound to happen.
Many in favour of the implementation of the law will argue saying “It’s God’s law. We have to do it no matter what. It is the right thing to do and God will eventually show the way.” The simplest way to test this hypothesis is to look at other Muslim countries that abide by the Islamic criminal jurispudence and ask yourself, “How do they treat their women, children and minorities? Are they treated justly and fairly?” You’d find the answer to be a resounding “No”. Despite their status as an Islamic country, many states that implement Hudud law are listed some of the most corrupt states in the world. If this is not enough to show you the damage that can be done by implementing the law, I don’t know what will.
Despite Islam being the first religion to grant women and children rights and the oft-quoted statement “We are all equal in the eyes of God”, modern-day interpretations has been made in such a way that depicts men as more superior than women. With this fact in mind, it is important to note that Hudud law will most probably be used to favour men. This in itself is a contradiction to Hudud law and Islam’s aim for a just and equal society and has been revealed by the way many Islamic states run their country. Islam has been long misunderstood as a misogynistic and oppressive religion, thus enforcing a law that can easily be subjected to manipulation will only strengthen the stigma people have against Muslims.
A few months ago, I watched The Stoning Of Soraya M. This movie is a perfect depiction of how Hudud law has been used and manipulated for someone’s own selfishness and greed, and is based on a true story.
Ali, Soraya’s husband, concocted a lie against her, blaming her for infidelity. His purpose was to rid of his “inconvenient wife” just so that he can marry a 14-year-old girl who was the daughter of a rich doctor. He managed to get 3 people to play along with him, thus fulfilling the 4 witnesses rule needed to stone someone for infidelity. A particular line in the movie that has been stuck on my mind since, “When a woman accuses her husband of infidelity, she has to prove his guilt. When a man accuses his wife of infidelity, she has to prove her innocence.” This movie covers more than just Hudud law. It shows many more injustices practiced in Islamic states. But a post about this movie will be saved for a later time.
During the time of the Prophet, the harsh punishments of Hudud law were meant to deter people from committing crimes. But in this modern world, it can be seen as means to achieve selfish agendas. Back then, we had the Prophet to ensure justice was served, to supervise. But now? Malaysia is as corrupted as it is already with our current judiciary system, and people still want to implement a code of law that will most probably be manipulated and can cause more harm than we already have? And to top it all off, because Hudud law is a religious law, it “cannot be questioned” and thus, whatever the judge says, goes. No matter how unfair it may seem.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.
I trust in Islam. I don’t trust in people. EDIT: Someone just told me, “Only those who did wrong should be afraid (of the harsh punishments).” This is not about those who did wrong anymore, but those who will be wronged. Soraya Manutchehri was an innocent and loyal housewife, but she was still stoned. It’s about wanting a safer environment for all. Soraya is only one of the many people stoned for the crimes they did not commit. It is important to note that rape statistics in Saudi Arabia, known as one of the most conservative Islamic states in the world, is also one of the highest. This is because many of the rape victims who report to the authorities are charged instead of their perpetrator, and are punished for illicit sex. EDIT2: “As true believers, we have to make sure Hudud law happens. To those who were wronged, God will give justice to the innocent. Maybe not now, but he will.” Are we going to use this reason to stop poverty as well? As long as we have a voice, I believe in standing up for justice. Are we just going to let injustices happen, and just observe by the sidelines? Yes, God will always give justice to the innocent, but this does not mean we should not do anything. EDIT3: “If someone is wrongly judged, that is the judge’s fault, not Hudud’s fault.” Yes, of course it is not Hudud’s fault. But that is enough to see the harm that misusing Hudud law can cause. Will you be able to redeem the wrongly accused once their arms have been cut off, or even worse, stoned to death? I had hoped that the unjust deaths that had been carried out under Hudud law would be a lesson to us all. EDIT4: I’ve had people tell me that the only reason why I do not agree with the implementation of Hudud law is because I have “trust issues”, and then they go ahead and tell me that all laws can be manipulated. I would like to rewind them to what I have written above:
Malaysia is as corrupted as it is already with our current judiciary system, and people still want to implement a code of law that will most probably be manipulated and can cause more harm than we already have? And to top it all off, because Hudud law is a religious law, it “cannot be questioned” and thus, whatever the judge says, goes. No matter how unfair it may seem.
It may sound like having trust issues to you, but it’s just me being cautious. Yes, all laws can be manipulated and our judiciary isn’t as transparent as we’d like, but it does not take much to realize that Hudud law, due to its religious backing, is subjected to more harmful manipulation. This is evident in Middle Eastern countries. Please refer to EDIT3.
the above article taken from :
skg memang lah mulut sedap ckp....bila kafir macam cina dan lain keluar...lu ingat boleh membangunkan ekonomi?? sedangkan Tun sendir sudah ckp melayu memperlukan tongkat...British sendiri ada ckp..melayu malas....
ckp pakai otak ...jgn sedap mulut tanpa akal fikiran...
“Kalau kita cakap kita tidak boleh melaksanakan Hudud kerana ia tidak sesuai, ia merupakan syirik besar dan kita akan dicampakkan ke dalam neraka.”
Translation: “If we say Hudud law is not suitable in Malaysia, we are committing shirk and we will be thrown into Hell.”
Those were the words that made me cringe in the lecture hall during my 3 hour Islamic Studies class. It appalled me to know that some lecturers don’t teach you how to think, but rather, they teach what to think. With no explanation, no nothing, the ustaz that lectured the class just went on to tell everyone that if we don’t think Hudud can be applied to Malaysia, they were meant for Hellfire for sure. He didn’t even bother to understand why people did not agree to it. He merely just said whoever does not agree is “our enemy”.
As usual, people result to fear-mongering to get others on their side. I wonder when will they ever notice that the way they preach creates more apathy against Islam and fear of God within Muslims, instead of acceptance of Islam and love for God. I mean, how many of us can truly say we are doing something because we love God and not because we are afraid of Hell? Wallahualam.
See, a lot of Malaysians, especially the conservative Muslims, misunderstand when some Muslims disagree with the implementation of Hudud law in Malaysia. They think that we disagree with it, or even worse, disbelieve in God’s divinity. Most of the time, however, this is not the case. A lot of Muslims (me included) disagree with the implementation of Hudud law, not the law itself, because we don’t trust people, not because we don’t trust in Islam. We disagree in fear that God’s divine law will be manipulated by the evil, unjust, corrupted and tyrannical to achieve their own selfish agendas. We disagree in fear that it will taint the justice that it was supposed to serve. When a divine law is being handled by petty human beings like ourselves, injustice is bound to happen.
Many in favour of the implementation of the law will argue saying “It’s God’s law. We have to do it no matter what. It is the right thing to do and God will eventually show the way.” The simplest way to test this hypothesis is to look at other Muslim countries that abide by the Islamic criminal jurispudence and ask yourself, “How do they treat their women, children and minorities? Are they treated justly and fairly?” You’d find the answer to be a resounding “No”. Despite their status as an Islamic country, many states that implement Hudud law are listed some of the most corrupt states in the world. If this is not enough to show you the damage that can be done by implementing the law, I don’t know what will.
Despite Islam being the first religion to grant women and children rights and the oft-quoted statement “We are all equal in the eyes of God”, modern-day interpretations has been made in such a way that depicts men as more superior than women. With this fact in mind, it is important to note that Hudud law will most probably be used to favour men. This in itself is a contradiction to Hudud law and Islam’s aim for a just and equal society and has been revealed by the way many Islamic states run their country. Islam has been long misunderstood as a misogynistic and oppressive religion, thus enforcing a law that can easily be subjected to manipulation will only strengthen the stigma people have against Muslims.
A few months ago, I watched The Stoning Of Soraya M. This movie is a perfect depiction of how Hudud law has been used and manipulated for someone’s own selfishness and greed, and is based on a true story.
Ali, Soraya’s husband, concocted a lie against her, blaming her for infidelity. His purpose was to rid of his “inconvenient wife” just so that he can marry a 14-year-old girl who was the daughter of a rich doctor. He managed to get 3 people to play along with him, thus fulfilling the 4 witnesses rule needed to stone someone for infidelity. A particular line in the movie that has been stuck on my mind since, “When a woman accuses her husband of infidelity, she has to prove his guilt. When a man accuses his wife of infidelity, she has to prove her innocence.” This movie covers more than just Hudud law. It shows many more injustices practiced in Islamic states. But a post about this movie will be saved for a later time.
During the time of the Prophet, the harsh punishments of Hudud law were meant to deter people from committing crimes. But in this modern world, it can be seen as means to achieve selfish agendas. Back then, we had the Prophet to ensure justice was served, to supervise. But now? Malaysia is as corrupted as it is already with our current judiciary system, and people still want to implement a code of law that will most probably be manipulated and can cause more harm than we already have? And to top it all off, because Hudud law is a religious law, it “cannot be questioned” and thus, whatever the judge says, goes. No matter how unfair it may seem.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.
I trust in Islam. I don’t trust in people.
EDIT: Someone just told me, “Only those who did wrong should be afraid (of the harsh punishments).” This is not about those who did wrong anymore, but those who will be wronged. Soraya Manutchehri was an innocent and loyal housewife, but she was still stoned. It’s about wanting a safer environment for all. Soraya is only one of the many people stoned for the crimes they did not commit. It is important to note that rape statistics in Saudi Arabia, known as one of the most conservative Islamic states in the world, is also one of the highest. This is because many of the rape victims who report to the authorities are charged instead of their perpetrator, and are punished for illicit sex.
EDIT2: “As true believers, we have to make sure Hudud law happens. To those who were wronged, God will give justice to the innocent. Maybe not now, but he will.” Are we going to use this reason to stop poverty as well? As long as we have a voice, I believe in standing up for justice. Are we just going to let injustices happen, and just observe by the sidelines? Yes, God will always give justice to the innocent, but this does not mean we should not do anything.
EDIT3: “If someone is wrongly judged, that is the judge’s fault, not Hudud’s fault.” Yes, of course it is not Hudud’s fault. But that is enough to see the harm that misusing Hudud law can cause. Will you be able to redeem the wrongly accused once their arms have been cut off, or even worse, stoned to death? I had hoped that the unjust deaths that had been carried out under Hudud law would be a lesson to us all.
EDIT4: I’ve had people tell me that the only reason why I do not agree with the implementation of Hudud law is because I have “trust issues”, and then they go ahead and tell me that all laws can be manipulated. I would like to rewind them to what I have written above:
Malaysia is as corrupted as it is already with our current judiciary system, and people still want to implement a code of law that will most probably be manipulated and can cause more harm than we already have? And to top it all off, because Hudud law is a religious law, it “cannot be questioned” and thus, whatever the judge says, goes. No matter how unfair it may seem.
It may sound like having trust issues to you, but it’s just me being cautious. Yes, all laws can be manipulated and our judiciary isn’t as transparent as we’d like, but it does not take much to realize that Hudud law, due to its religious backing, is subjected to more harmful manipulation. This is evident in Middle Eastern countries. Please refer to EDIT3.
Whether two or one hands it do not makedifferences. Why I wrote such? Let says for stealing, one hand of chop off…..
So, onehand eating and same hand to wash the after shit (buang air besar)….sound stupid? Godcreated all reason. Why one need to act like God?
Now, yousee why such implementation of hudud do not makes sense.
Maybe youneed to experience …your kids…whentheir hand chop off, for committing crime….than u know the pain how your kidssuffer with one hand….later you realize why not just implemented the normal lawwhich going lock up serve the jail terms…that is logical idea right??
LOL , it makes a huge difference if 1 hand been amputated instead of 2. The person at the very least has an operational hand to get things done. Your argument is an argument of a person with no intelligence. You have a problem that a person 'makan' and 'basuh berak' with the same hand. The said person needs to adapt to his current circumstance. Too bad for him. Why did he steal in the first place knowing the penalty if convicted. In other words you are tolerant and in support of a thief who goes on stealing , case in point being a repeated offender. Then you have a problem with yourself.
Meaning what?Are you saying if a person does hardcore crime which repeating crime…than hududof chopping off the hands or hand?? Whetherone or two…no differences….
The problemis with peoples ……peoples will manipulate law , regardless hudud or modern law..
A person who has his hand amputated would not dare to repeat the same crime. He knows that if convicted , his other hand would go. Can you provide your rationale that whether 1 or 2 hands being amputated makes no difference? As far as I can see , it makes a huge difference. LOL , if people manipulate the law , does it matter which law it is? This is then not about Hudud but the law being manipulated. It already a different argument of the manipulation of the law. What has it got to do with Hudud?
Yes yesyes….same hand eating same hand basuh berak..hahahhaha silly....
Too bad for the person , he needs to adapt. LOL , this is such a silly argument , no Hudud because the person 'makan' and 'basuh berak' with the same hand. Err , what is the use of having soap and water to wash his hand? You don't clean your hand after 'basuh berak'? That explains it , doesn't it.
Islamophobe?That is your problem…I can send numerous youtube…of course you will be in denial …as usual..
Then give me something with the proper evidence. So far your evidence has been very poor or non existent. Typical argument of an islamophobe. You just could not provide any evidence.
They havehudud law over there….yet is in state of poverty….if kafir were to be there….thecountry will flourished just like here……The chinese build the economy and themalay admin it…do you think the malayable to build economy power alone? You judge urself lah….of course I seentoo many political from malay ..onerecent case on saiful jubo and liwat …probablygood on that?? Yet you peoples want talk big about hudud when the malays herecould not handle the political …slander and etc…do you think hudud work? It will be disaster….will be manipulated bypeoples….just happening now…iklan bilis kena tangkap rasuah…where is the ikanjerung?? They even can manipulate the hudud ..u got my point…thatwill be great danger in islam…
This is a very poor argument. Afghanistan has been a war torn country for the last century. Iran is under economic sanction for the last 30 years. There is nothing the so called 'kafirs' can do if they are there anyway. I have never state that the Malays are alone in building the economy of this country. The Chinese cannot do it alone. The Indians are a marginalized race. Its again you are one bringing up racism in your argument which has got nothing to do with Hudud. In fact your business is dependent on Malay patronage. Why are you condemning the very race that provides you with your livelihood? This shows that you are just a hypocrite.
You cannot even stomach that the bible calls for Hudud. This is the problem with christians like you. You don't even know your own bible but seek to condemn others especially Islam. When the same injunction is found in the Bible , you deny it and act as if nothing happened.
If you say manipulation of Hudud , then it can happen to secular laws. Then it doesn't mean Hudud is inferior as claim by you. Your contention now is the manipulation of the law. It has got nothing to do with Hudud. You are going around in circles chasing your own backside.
Why I Do Not Agree With Hudud In Malaysia For a rewritten and revised version of this article, read here: http://buff.ly/1hBVxd6
“Kalau kita cakap kita tidak boleh melaksanakan Hudud kerana ia tidak sesuai, ia merupakan syirik besar dan kita akan dicampakkan ke dalam neraka.”
Translation: “If we say Hudud law is not suitable in Malaysia, we are committing shirk and we will be thrown into Hell.”
Those were the words that made me cringe in the lecture hall during my 3 hour Islamic Studies class. It appalled me to know that some lecturers don’t teach you how to think, but rather, they teach what to think. With no explanation, no nothing, the ustaz that lectured the class just went on to tell everyone that if we don’t think Hudud can be applied to Malaysia, they were meant for Hellfire for sure. He didn’t even bother to understand why people did not agree to it. He merely just said whoever does not agree is “our enemy”.
As usual, people result to fear-mongering to get others on their side. I wonder when will they ever notice that the way they preach creates more apathy against Islam and fear of God within Muslims, instead of acceptance of Islam and love for God. I mean, how many of us can truly say we are doing something because we love God and not because we are afraid of Hell? Wallahualam.
See, a lot of Malaysians, especially the conservative Muslims, misunderstand when some Muslims disagree with the implementation of Hudud law in Malaysia. They think that we disagree with it, or even worse, disbelieve in God’s divinity. Most of the time, however, this is not the case. A lot of Muslims (me included) disagree with the implementation of Hudud law, not the law itself, because we don’t trust people, not because we don’t trust in Islam. We disagree in fear that God’s divine law will be manipulated by the evil, unjust, corrupted and tyrannical to achieve their own selfish agendas. We disagree in fear that it will taint the justice that it was supposed to serve. When a divine law is being handled by petty human beings like ourselves, injustice is bound to happen.
Many in favour of the implementation of the law will argue saying “It’s God’s law. We have to do it no matter what. It is the right thing to do and God will eventually show the way.” The simplest way to test this hypothesis is to look at other Muslim countries that abide by the Islamic criminal jurispudence and ask yourself, “How do they treat their women, children and minorities? Are they treated justly and fairly?” You’d find the answer to be a resounding “No”. Despite their status as an Islamic country, many states that implement Hudud law are listed some of the most corrupt states in the world. If this is not enough to show you the damage that can be done by implementing the law, I don’t know what will.
Despite Islam being the first religion to grant women and children rights and the oft-quoted statement “We are all equal in the eyes of God”, modern-day interpretations has been made in such a way that depicts men as more superior than women. With this fact in mind, it is important to note that Hudud law will most probably be used to favour men. This in itself is a contradiction to Hudud law and Islam’s aim for a just and equal society and has been revealed by the way many Islamic states run their country. Islam has been long misunderstood as a misogynistic and oppressive religion, thus enforcing a law that can easily be subjected to manipulation will only strengthen the stigma people have against Muslims.
A few months ago, I watched The Stoning Of Soraya M. This movie is a perfect depiction of how Hudud law has been used and manipulated for someone’s own selfishness and greed, and is based on a true story.
Ali, Soraya’s husband, concocted a lie against her, blaming her for infidelity. His purpose was to rid of his “inconvenient wife” just so that he can marry a 14-year-old girl who was the daughter of a rich doctor. He managed to get 3 people to play along with him, thus fulfilling the 4 witnesses rule needed to stone someone for infidelity. A particular line in the movie that has been stuck on my mind since, “When a woman accuses her husband of infidelity, she has to prove his guilt. When a man accuses his wife of infidelity, she has to prove her innocence.” This movie covers more than just Hudud law. It shows many more injustices practiced in Islamic states. But a post about this movie will be saved for a later time.
During the time of the Prophet, the harsh punishments of Hudud law were meant to deter people from committing crimes. But in this modern world, it can be seen as means to achieve selfish agendas. Back then, we had the Prophet to ensure justice was served, to supervise. But now? Malaysia is as corrupted as it is already with our current judiciary system, and people still want to implement a code of law that will most probably be manipulated and can cause more harm than we already have? And to top it all off, because Hudud law is a religious law, it “cannot be questioned” and thus, whatever the judge says, goes. No matter how unfair it may seem.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.
I trust in Islam. I don’t trust in people.
EDIT: Someone just told me, “Only those who did wrong should be afraid (of the harsh punishments).” This is not about those who did wrong anymore, but those who will be wronged. Soraya Manutchehri was an innocent and loyal housewife, but she was still stoned. It’s about wanting a safer environment for all. Soraya is only one of the many people stoned for the crimes they did not commit. It is important to note that rape statistics in Saudi Arabia, known as one of the most conservative Islamic states in the world, is also one of the highest. This is because many of the rape victims who report to the authorities are charged instead of their perpetrator, and are punished for illicit sex.
EDIT2: “As true believers, we have to make sure Hudud law happens. To those who were wronged, God will give justice to the innocent. Maybe not now, but he will.” Are we going to use this reason to stop poverty as well? As long as we have a voice, I believe in standing up for justice. Are we just going to let injustices happen, and just observe by the sidelines? Yes, God will always give justice to the innocent, but this does not mean we should not do anything.
EDIT3: “If someone is wrongly judged, that is the judge’s fault, not Hudud’s fault.” Yes, of course it is not Hudud’s fault. But that is enough to see the harm that misusing Hudud law can cause. Will you be able to redeem the wrongly accused once their arms have been cut off, or even worse, stoned to death? I had hoped that the unjust deaths that had been carried out under Hudud law would be a lesson to us all.
EDIT4: I’ve had people tell me that the only reason why I do not agree with the implementation of Hudud law is because I have “trust issues”, and then they go ahead and tell me that all laws can be manipulated. I would like to rewind them to what I have written above:
Malaysia is as corrupted as it is already with our current judiciary system, and people still want to implement a code of law that will most probably be manipulated and can cause more harm than we already have? And to top it all off, because Hudud law is a religious law, it “cannot be questioned” and thus, whatever the judge says, goes. No matter how unfair it may seem.
It may sound like having trust issues to you, but it’s just me being cautious. Yes, all laws can be manipulated and our judiciary isn’t as transparent as we’d like, but it does not take much to realize that Hudud law, due to its religious backing, is subjected to more harmful manipulation. This is evident in Middle Eastern countries. Please refer to EDIT3.
the above article taken from :
LOL , the case of your argument is that it is not Hudud but the people administering it. In that case why even have secular laws because we cannot trust the people administering it. Like I stated , Hudud laws has its stringent requirements and guidelines as explained to you earlier. Similarly for example , taking a DNA sample has its operating procedure that the sealed bag cannot be opened by anyone but only at the lab.
If you say argue that Hudud entails more harmful manipulation - why is it more harmful?
LOL , now you bring up the so called 'true story' of Soraya M? Do you know that this so called 'true story' is heresay by a journalist stranded in a village and he got the story from a women supposedly to be the auntie. Since when did such story become a true story? This particular filem critic aptly explains :
"Based on a true story," the preface crows, the film is about a woman (eponymous) from a small village in Iran, who is framed for adultery by her husband then stoned to death in the town square. A French journalist (Jim Caviezel, no stranger to, uh, Abrahamically brutal cinema) becomes stranded in the town a few weeks after the stoning and receives the story – in hushed tones that melt into flashbacks – from Soraya's aunt, one of those feisty, prerevolutionary intellectuals now veiled but not cowed.
.....Oh, the world's most evil cartoon man is pro-stoning? You don't say. That's not truth: it's boring racism.
......it'd be no surprise if the same Christian extremists who evangelised Passion attach to this one just as fiercely: it demonises an entire religious group while purporting a message of equality. Gross.
In other words , this is a typical argument by Christians of your like. Take something heresay and claim its the truth and broadbrush Islam.
The best part , when the bible calls for the same ..... you pretend it is not there.
LOL , it makes a huge difference if 1 hand been amputatedinstead of 2. The person at the very least has an operational hand to getthings done. Your argument is an argument of a person with no intelligence. Youhave a problem that a person 'makan' and 'basuh berak' with the same hand. Thesaid person needs to adapt to his current circumstance. Too bad for him. Whydid he steal in the first place knowing the penalty if convicted. In otherwords you are tolerant and in support of a thief who goes on stealing , case inpoint being a repeated offender. Then you have a problem with yourself.
By Truth.8
If aperson commit hardcore crime….one can send to jail. Given the person harsh punishment for labour or provide the personskills training using hands……when such items was made in his own hand while inprison, this will benefits both…meaning the government and the convict ….those items made by HANDS, can be sold topublic at reasonable rate to cover the cost of expenditure in the prison andetc…..so is win win situation here…
With handchop off, this person become useless to himself/herself and burden to others and to government. Government need spoon feed that person once this convict free from the prison…
So, hududis not applicable at present time as weneed to progress forward not a kind of outdated law.
===========================================
By sam:
A personwho has his hand amputated would not dare to repeat the same crime. He knowsthat if convicted , his other hand would go. Can you provide your rationalethat whether 1 or 2 hands being amputated makes no difference? As far as I cansee , it makes a huge difference. LOL , if people manipulate the law , does itmatter which law it is? This is then not about Hudud but the law beingmanipulated. It already a different argument of the manipulation of the law.What has it got to do with Hudud?
By Truth.8
Already explained . see above with skill training ….
By sam:
Too bad for the person , he needs to adapt. LOL , this issuch a silly argument , no Hudud because the person 'makan' and 'basuh berak'with the same hand. Err , what is the use of having soap and water to wash hishand? You don't clean your hand after 'basuh berak'? That explains it , doesn'tit.
By Truth.8
With one handdoing all……silly
By sam:
This is a very poor argument. Afghanistan has been a wartorn country for the last century. Iran is under economic sanction for the last30 years. There is nothing the so called 'kafirs' can do if they are there anyway.I have never state that the Malays are alone in building the economy of thiscountry. The Chinese cannot do it alone. The Indians are a marginalized race.Its again you are one bringing up racism in your argument which has got nothingto do with Hudud. In fact your business is dependent on Malay patronage. Whyare you condemning the very race that provides you with your livelihood? Thisshows that you are just a hypocrite.
By truth.8
Tell me which Islamiccountry never torn apart? Mostly all. Why ? go and do research.. here in Malaysia both pas and umno do not agreed eachother…
Yes, the moment kafir were to stay in Islamic country, yousee so much differences in terms of economy growth and etc….are you denying?Did I mention indian being margnalised? Is you brought the issue . so u a kindracism…. I am telling base on fact that the chinese bring economy growth….fromyap ah loy till now, the economy heremostly are control by chinese …… themalays are administration of thecountry….so, can muslim which malay arethey capable of running business likethe chinese???
Surely cannot lah….why? everything was patent such way …..if hudud were to implemented …..inyears come, the professional chinese andothers, will leave this country and only leaving behind all the unprofessional peoples and unskills peoplesf rom overseas from indon and bangla are hired here….
I can see the presentsituation already happening , one of my client daughter who study doctorrefuse come here as she stated that Australia much better…in terms on education,salary and others…
================================
By sam
You cannot even stomach that the bible calls for Hudud. This is the problemwith christians like you. You don't even know your own bible but seek tocondemn others especially Islam. When the same injunction is found in the Bible, you deny it and act as if nothing happened.
By truth.8
We do not endorse out da ted law….
==================================
By sam:
If you say manipulation of Hudud , then it can happen to secular laws. Then itdoesn't mean Hudud is inferior as claim by you. Your contention now is themanipulation of the law. It has got nothing to do with Hudud. You are goingaround in circles chasing your own backside.
By truth.8
The article written by a muslimwho disagreed on hudud because certain issue here in Malaysia are questionable…suchcorruption, judiciary system acting unfair and etc….
When law and administration here is weak, corruptbeing double standard…how one can think of implement hudud law?? Don’t youthink it better to clean up the mess first than talk about hudud? But I doubt…..that’s what the writer trying says…..
So, certain muslims do not agreeon the hudud issue …don’t u think this will break up muslims apart which leadsthis country into chaos and problematic???
By sam:
LOL , the case of your argument is that it is not Hudud butthe people administering it. In that case why even have secular laws because wecannot trust the people administering it. Like I stated , Hudud laws has itsstringent requirements and guidelines as explained to you earlier. Similarlyfor example , taking a DNA sample has its operating procedure that the sealedbag cannot be opened by anyone but only at the lab.
By truth.8
the people administering? What kind stupid view this? Firstlyso many problem here in Malaysia, currency becoming ‘tenat”, the present administrationcondemn by many parties, even drawing acartoon can be arrested and bail later by police , no record of deceased by name althanyu in in authority system and list goes on….how hudud going to workwhen such administering here can little doubt?
By sam:
If you say argue that Hudud entails more harmful manipulation - why is it moreharmful?
The writer who is muslims says so….you may wish write to her….doyou see the separation here? U agreed other muslim do not agree.
By sam:
LOL , now you bring up the so called 'true story' of Soraya M? Do you know thatthis so called 'true story' is heresay by a journalist stranded in a villageand he got the story from a women supposedly to be the auntie. Since when didsuch story become a true story?
By truth.8
For you everything truth is lies…..when you going realize thetruth? Here you can read more :
If aperson commit hardcore crime….one can send to jail. Given the person harsh punishment for labour or provide the personskills training using hands……when such items was made in his own hand while inprison, this will benefits both…meaning the government and the convict ….those items made by HANDS, can be sold topublic at reasonable rate to cover the cost of expenditure in the prison andetc…..so is win win situation here…
With handchop off, this person become useless to himself/herself and burden to others and to government. Government need spoon feed that person once this convict free from the prison…
So, hududis not applicable at present time as weneed to progress forward not a kind of outdated law.
LOL , that is why I stated that there is something wrong with you. My post #12 , I provided the statistics that ~ 77% of people who go to jail are repeated offenders. This means whatever training you provide , they would repeat the offence over and over again. With Hudud , they would not dare to repeat it unless they have a 'death wish' of both hands being amputated. A person can be productive with one hand. He then needs to adapt with the circumstance. How he does it is his problem as no one told him to steal in the first place. Care to explain just how do you progress with repeated offenders? Your argument lack evidence , just an emotional argument. Too bad ....
Already explained . see above with skill training ….
Data refutes you. Skill training is useless for repeated offenders. These are hardcore felons by the way.
With one handdoing all……silly
Of course the hand is doing everything because thats all he has. You wash your backside with your mouth?
Tell me which Islamiccountry never torn apart? Mostly all. Why ? go and do research.. here in Malaysia both pas and umno do not agreed eachother…
Yes, the moment kafir were to stay in Islamic country, yousee so much differences in terms of economy growth and etc….are you denying?Did I mention indian being margnalised? Is you brought the issue . so u a kindracism…. I am telling base on fact that the chinese bring economy growth….fromyap ah loy till now, the economy heremostly are control by chinese …… themalays are administration of thecountry….so, can muslim which malay arethey capable of running business likethe chinese???
Surely cannot lah….why? everything was patent such way …..if hudud were to implemented …..inyears come, the professional chinese andothers, will leave this country and only leaving behind all the unprofessional peoples and unskills peoplesf rom overseas from indon and bangla are hired here….
I can see the presentsituation already happening , one of my client daughter who study doctorrefuse come here as she stated that Australia much better…in terms on education,salary and others…
You still fail to see what has been argued about. This shows that you are just a frog in the well. At least you are expected to read and have a wide knowledge. It has nothing to do with PAS and UMNO disagreeing with one another. Read history so that you are a better informed person :
The father of Islamic Modernism, Jalal al-Din al-Afghani (1838-1897), traveled the Muslim world warning that Britain, France and Russia were colluding with Middle Eastern rulers and robbing the local people through sweetheart deals for exploitation of natural and commercial resources. His predictions came true. After WWI the borders and the leaders of virtually all Arab states were decided upon by Britain and France.f Many assigned monarchs were not even locals; they were from tribes of other regions.
With centuries of mercantilist experience of divide and conquer, Britain and France created small, unstable states whose rulers needed the support of their Western masters to stay in power. The development and trade of these states were controlled and were meant to never again be a threat to the West. These external powers then made contracts with their puppets to buy Muslim resources cheaply, making the feudal elite enormously wealthy while leaving most citizens in poverty.
After the Russian Revolution in 1917, the new Soviet government exposed to the world Britain’s, France’s, Italy’s, and Russia’s secret agreement signed one-year earlier to carve up the Middle East and many other such secret agreements were exposed. President Woodrow Wilson was determined to thwart those imperial ambitions and proposed the League of Nations under which colonialism would eventually be dismantled. He personally assumed the role of U.S. negotiator for that purpose.
Their own selfish interests denied Middle East Muslim monarchs and heads of states the option of bargaining for equality of trades. (As we will see, equality of trades means establishing efficient industries, an efficient economic infrastructure, having equal access to markets, and equally-productive labor equally paid.) The dependence of feudal governments upon Western arms to suppress democratic movements which could overthrow them required sweetheart deals which enriched those feudal monarchs and Western traders at the expense of a nation’s impoverished citizens.18 Surely those impoverished had an equal right to nature’s wealth within their borders? The alert in the Muslim world were aware of this conflict of interest and it was under this suppression of freedom and rights by their own leaders, in collusion with the West, that the most recent terrorism by religious extremists was born
LOL , did I ever deny that the Chinese brought along economical growth? The big problem with you is that you have very limited comprehension. That is why you do not understand anything you read.
The question here is what is the reason to leave if Hudud implemented? If you say it is backward , you are talking about repeated offenders. Nothing backwardness about it. If you say you cannot trust the system , it means you cannot trust the current system also. So what is your issue? Until now you cannot articulate such but keep on saying people would leave. As it stands people are leaving. There are always others to take their place. No one is indespensible. Take you for example , you quit your business and leave , there would be another to take up where you left off. Therefore the argument of people leaving and the country left in shambles is not accurate. There would be others to fill in the void.
We do not endorse out da ted law….
Therefore your admission that the bible is an outdated book. They why are you always shouting that the bible is the best book whereas you now admit that the laws in the bible is outdated.
The article written by a muslimwho disagreed on hudud because certain issue here in Malaysia are questionable…suchcorruption, judiciary system acting unfair and etc….
When law and administration here is weak, corruptbeing double standard…how one can think of implement hudud law?? Don’t youthink it better to clean up the mess first than talk about hudud? But I doubt…..that’s what the writer trying says…..
So, certain muslims do not agreeon the hudud issue …don’t u think this will break up muslims apart which leadsthis country into chaos and problematic???
The issue here is not Hudud is outdated etc as claimed by you. If you appeal to the said writer , the issue here is the administration of the law , meaning it is being manipulated by certain quarters. I would rather trust a God fearing person like Allahyarham Nik Aziz as I know I would justice from him. The point here , if you don't agree with Hudud , what is your reason? So far you have not provided any credible reason(s) but mostly emotional argument. I've given you data (statistics) , what is in the bible which you consider the the word of your God , the reason why there would not be repeated offenders etc. Your arguments are just what if scenarios. These are not facts but imagination.
the people administering? What kind stupid view this? Firstlyso many problem here in Malaysia, currency becoming ‘tenat”, the present administrationcondemn by many parties, even drawing acartoon can be arrested and bail later by police , no record of deceased by name althanyu in in authority system and list goes on….how hudud going to workwhen such administering here can little doubt?
Is there something wrong with you? Your argument before this is about administration of the Law ,
he article written by a muslimwho disagreed on hudud because certain issue here in Malaysia are questionable…suchcorruption, judiciary system acting unfair and etc….
When law and administration here is weak, corruptbeing double standard
Now you are saying it is a stupid view. Do you actually know what you are talking about? The issues you mentioned (underlined) has got nothing to do with Hudud. It is about people manipulating the law. Then in such case , even now the system is not workable. Then why are you arguing that Hudud is outdated whereas the real issue is about administration.
Do you know what you are talking about?
The writer who is muslims says so….you may wish write to her….doyou see the separation here? U agreed other muslim do not agree.
Why are you trying to run away? You in appealing to her means that you agree with her and her reasons. You should be able to defend her viewpoint. I am debating you not her. The question again : what is you rproblem with Hudud? If you say its the more harmful , I would rather trust a God fearing person like Allahyarham Nik Aziz.
Can you explain where is the truth here. It is a movie based on heresay. This means that particular journalist was stuck in a village and got to know this story from a certain woman claiming to be Soraya's auntie. The faithfreedom forum link you provided did not even provide any evidence that the said story is true. Can you now provide evidence that this story is true. Do you know what is 'evidence'? Are you not evidence driven?
go and read and do more research ….this what happening in iran….i got client who is iran…stayinghere long …wonder why?
What is happening in Iran? You make the claim you need to provide the evidence. There are lots of Iranians in here and some of them wants to be permanent. Your guess is as good as mine. Why?
Where in NT Jesus says you need chop off hand if commitrobbery?
I thought I have given you the pertinent verses. Isn't theft or robbery a sin? You are just in denial of what is in the bible. Yet you claim the bible is the best book but then admit that it is outdated. In short , you are a hypocrite.
LOL , that is why I stated thatthere is something wrong with you. My post #12 , I provided the statistics that~ 77% of people who go to jail are repeated offenders. This means whatevertraining you provide , they would repeat the offence over and over again. WithHudud , they would not dare to repeat it unless they have a 'death wish' ofboth hands being amputated. A person can be productive with one hand. He thenneeds to adapt with the circumstance. How he does it is his problem as no onetold him to steal in the first place. Care to explain just how do you progresswith repeated offenders? Your argument lack evidence , just an emotionalargument. Too bad ....
By truth.8
77% ? where you get the statistics? Auta again? Proof ok…anyone can claimed but we need proof.
Why person seal is subjective….it can be many reason…lack ofreligious teachings, family orsituation…
Nobody born withperfection….hence is not right thing for such harsh punishment… Your argumentlack evidence , just an emotional argument. Too bad ....
By sam:
Data refutes you. Skill training is useless for repeatedoffenders. These are hardcore felons by the way.
By truth.8
If hardcore offender…jail them for long terms….once theyold…they do not have the physical energy to seal rather getting to close to faith….
By sam:
Of course the hand is doing everything because thats all hehas. You wash your backside with your mouth?
Than let this happen to your family members….than you knowthe situation face by you and yourclosed family members if one handis missing…
Saying is easy but toface the reality is hard…but you don’tbecause you talk talk talk
By sam:
You still fail to see what hasbeen argued about. This shows that you are just a frog in the well. At leastyou are expected to read and have a wide knowledge. It has nothing to do withPAS and UMNO disagreeing with one another. Read history so that you are a better informed person
By truth.8
Political turmoil here getting worst….this fact…peoples are not happy for certain things…namecalling to leaders of the country, cursing etc….. history is history but weneed to see the reality whichhappening now not history.. so living half past six…
By sam:
LOL , did I ever deny that theChinese brought along economical growth? The big problem with you is that youhave very limited comprehension. That is why you do not understand anything youread.
You twists like thoselong robe arabs …surface religious but devil…
It was you written saying the Indians are marginalized…I did not saysthat….i only wrote the chinese brought economy growth where else the malaywhich are muslims does the administration
So, where is my topic relatedto racism?? It was your bad intention tothink such…this is true…how many times you pray and fast……you still have thebad intention…
By same:
The question here is what is the reason to leave if Hududimplemented? If you say it is backward , you are talking about repeatedoffenders. Nothing backwardness about it. If you say you cannot trust thesystem , it means you cannot trust the current system also. So what is yourissue? Until now you cannot articulate such but keep on saying people wouldleave. As it stands people are leaving. There are always others to take theirplace. No one is indespensible. Take you for example , you quit your businessand leave , there would be another to take up where you left off. Therefore theargument of people leaving and the country left in shambles is not accurate.There would be others to fill in the void.
By truth.8
Yes is outdatedlaws which not serve any purpose for the development of this country rather itbring chaos ….currently you can see some muslims do not agreed on hudud…if youtruly want implement the hudud, you need 100% support from muslims and notforgetting the chinese as well because it they who bring lot economy growth in Malaysia..
Without this 100% support, than hudud is not relevant at present moment …its void and rejected…
By sam:
Therefore your admission thatthe bible is an outdated book. They why are you always shouting that the bibleis the best book whereas you now admit that the laws in the bible is outdated.
By truth.8
Which law? Hudud law in Bible? Is not relevant….did Jesussays one must keep such law ?
Where is the verses??
By sam:
The issue here is not Hudud is outdated etc as claimed byyou. If you appeal to the said writer , the issue here is the administration ofthe law , meaning it is being manipulated by certain quarters. I would rathertrust a God fearing person like Allahyarham Nik Aziz as I know I would justicefrom him. The point here , if you don't agree with Hudud , what is your reason?So far you have not provided any credible reason(s) but mostly emotionalargument. I've given you data (statistics) , what is in the bible which youconsider the the word of your God , the reason why there would not be repeatedoffenders etc. Your arguments are just what if scenarios. These are not factsbut imagination.
By truth.8
You see, there is weakness in your muslims …that why thewriter wrote manipulate by certain quarters…why?Because certain muslims do not wantsuch law….where in NT does Jesus you need to keep the hudud? Verses please…
By sam:
Can you explain where is thetruth here. It is a movie based on heresay. This means that particular journalistwas stuck in a village and got to know this story from a certain woman claimingto be Soraya's auntie. The faithfreedom forum link you provided did not evenprovide any evidence that the said story is true. Can you now provide evidencethat this story is true. Do you know what is 'evidence'? Are you not evidencedriven?
By truth.8
Is all there in the link..take time to read..why? afraid?
By sam:
What is happening in Iran? Youmake the claim you need to provide the evidence. There are lots of Iranians inhere and some of them wants to be permanent. Your guess is as good as mine.Why?
By truth.8
Why? Probably they not happy …the harsh law in Islamic intheir country…
That’s why they feel here ok because there is not harsh Islamic law here…..
I don’t evensee chinese in iran….honestly I neverwant invest nor take iran as my business dealing …because too Islamic..
By sam:
thought I have given you thepertinent verses. Isn't theft or robbery a sin? You are just in denial of whatis in the bible. Yet you claim the bible is the best book but then admit thatit is outdated. In short , you are a hypocrite.
By truth.8
Where ? which verses? Number ? chapter?? Does it says chop off hands??
77% ? where you get the statistics? Auta again? Proof ok…anyone can claimed but we need proof.
Why person seal is subjective….it can be many reason…lack ofreligious teachings, family orsituation…
Nobody born withperfection….hence is not right thing for such harsh punishment… Your argumentlack evidence , just an emotional argument. Too bad ....
This is why I keep on saying that there is something wrong with you. You did not read much less understand anything and keep on asking the same question over and over again hoping for a different answer. I provided the link in my post#12. Go back to the said post and read up the link. The data is
These are some of the findings from the 2006 State Court Processing Statistics data collection program. Since 1988 the Bureau of Justice Statistics of the US Department of Justice has collected data on felony cases processed in state courts in the nation’s 75 largest counties. Federal defendants and defendants charged with misdemeanor crimes are not included.
Religious or family situation is not an excuse to commit a crime. If the person is hungry and no job , Syariah makes consession for such. If they are professional thieves , they should get what they deserve.
If hardcore offender…jail them for long terms….once theyold…they do not have the physical energy to seal rather getting to close to faith….
LOL , you are contradicting yourself. Jailing a person till he is old and have no more physical energy to work or steal defeats all purpose. What do you think the person can do when he is out of prison? At least a person with one hand can adapt to his situation and if he choose to go straight , he has all the years to build something meaningful for himself.
Than let this happen to your family members….than you knowthe situation face by you and yourclosed family members if one handis missing…
Saying is easy but toface the reality is hard…but you don’tbecause you talk talk talk
Like I stated , if a person is daring enough to steal , he should be brave enough to accept the punishment that goes along with it. Since you are at it , why is it we have the death penalty for drug pushers (which is Hadd punishment) but we do not go along with jailing them for a period of time? Can you explain such? If you are against Hudud , you should be against the death penalty for drug pushers.
Political turmoil here getting worst….this fact…peoples are not happy for certain things…namecalling to leaders of the country, cursing etc….. history is history but weneed to see the reality whichhappening now not history.. so living half past six…
Political turmoil has got nothing to do with Hudud. Why are you conflating political turmoil with hudud?
You twists like thoselong robe arabs …surface religious but devil…
It was you written saying the Indians are marginalized…I did not saysthat….i only wrote the chinese brought economy growth where else the malaywhich are muslims does the administration
So, where is my topic relatedto racism?? It was your bad intention tothink such…this is true…how many times you pray and fast……you still have thebad intention…
LOL , this shows that you are not paying attention to what I stated. It is true that the Indians are a marginalised race in this country. Why is it so? Only the people in power can answer such. I quote my post#29 again :
I have never state that the Malays are alone in building the economy of this country. The Chinese cannot do it alone. The Indians are a marginalized race. Its again you are one bringing up racism in your argument which has got nothing to do with Hudud. In fact your business is dependent on Malay patronage. Why are you condemning the very race that provides you with your livelihood?
Are you not the one bringing the factor of race into your argument , your post#28. Why are you denying what you stated?
Yes is outdatedlaws which not serve any purpose for the development of this country rather itbring chaos ….currently you can see some muslims do not agreed on hudud…if youtruly want implement the hudud, you need 100% support from muslims and notforgetting the chinese as well because it they who bring lot economy growth in Malaysia..
Without this 100% support, than hudud is not relevant at present moment …its void and rejected…
This is the question that you have been avoiding. Why do you say its outdated? You have not provided any evidence except a problem in administering the law. Enforcing the law has got nothing to do with the law itself. For the people who don't agree with Hudud , the question is still the same. What are you not in agreement with? Provide reasons. Till now there is no good reason(s) provided.
Which law? Hudud law in Bible? Is not relevant….did Jesussays one must keep such law ?
Where is the verses??
I thought the pertinent verses has been provided in my post#12. I dunno about you. When Jesus stated such in the verses , isn't it to mean for you to follow them? Else Jesus would just say , 'hey ..... don't do what I tell you'. Mat23:1-3 (NIV)
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Isn't Jesus himself a teacher of the law?
You see, there is weakness in your muslims …that why thewriter wrote manipulate by certain quarters…why?Because certain muslims do not wantsuch law….where in NT does Jesus you need to keep the hudud? Verses please…
LOL , are you now saying that the current law (as articulated by the writer) , when it is being manipulated by the so called certain quarters is on the muslims only? So what happens to the non muslims? With them the laws are not manipulated by the same quarters. You must be really high smoking weed by making such statement.
The point here is what is the reason for you to reject Hudud. Until now you do not have a reason.
LOL , I copy paste from my post#12 :
mat5:29-30
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
mat18:8-9
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
mark9:42-47
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
[44] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c]
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Cutting of the hands is Hadd punishment or Hudud as you know it. Your man God goes one better , you need to pluck out your eyes if it cause you to sin. Where is it in the bible that such injunction been abrogated meaning Jesus stated that 'hey guys , no need to follow mat5:29-30 , mat18:8-9 and mark9:42-47 anymore.
Why are you denying your own bible?
Is all there in the link..take time to read..why? afraid?
Your posted link again. Can you now pinpoint where is this is true story apart from it it being a heresay from the journalist who was stranded in a village in Iran hearing it from the auntie of Soraya. How can it even be the truth as he did not witness the whole event.
Why? Probably they not happy …the harsh law in Islamic intheir country…
That’s why they feel here ok because there is not harsh Islamic law here…..
I don’t evensee chinese in iran….honestly I neverwant invest nor take iran as my business dealing …because too Islamic..
Probably this and that is not evidence nor a compelling answer. People migrate for various reasons. The Chinese are not in Iran? China is one of the biggest importer of Iran Crude. Last year China has about US52 billion worth of infrastructure projects in Iran. You don't want to do business with them , it is ok , they don't need your business. Like I stated , someone else will do it. No problem to anybody.
Where ? which verses? Number ? chapter?? Does it says chop off hands??
Me waiting..
I repeat again bit part of post #12 :
mat5:29-30
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
mat18:8-9
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
mark9:42-47
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
[44] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c]
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
Isn't cutting off the hand the same like chopping off the hand?
Looks like a muslim need to inform you (a christian) of your own bible. It is embarrassing for you. Else you are just a hypocrite.
This is why I keep on saying thatthere is something wrong with you. You did not read much less understandanything and keep on asking the same question over and over again hoping for adifferent answer. I provided the link in my post#12. Go back to the said postand read up the link. The data is
These are some of the findings from the 2006 State CourtProcessing Statistics data collection program. Since 1988 the Bureau of JusticeStatistics of the US Department of Justice has collected data on felony casesprocessed in state courts in the nation’s 75 largest counties. Federaldefendants and defendants charged with misdemeanor crimes are not included.
By truth.8:
I am talking hudud in Malaysia . what is US got to do withmy thread? Smoking ganja is it?
So, where is the 77% statistic inMalaysia?
By sam:
Religious or family situation isnot an excuse to commit a crime. If the person is hungry and no job , Syariah makesconsession for such. If they are professional thieves , they should get whatthey deserve.
By truth.8
How would syariah makes the consesssion? Base on what? What proof?
How would syariah know he is profeesioanl thieves? Base onwhat? Proof?
By sam:
LOL , you are contradictingyourself. Jailing a person till he is old and have no more physical energy towork or steal defeats all purpose. What do you think the person can do when heis out of prison? At least a person with one hand can adapt to his situationand if he choose to go straight , he has all the years to build somethingmeaningful for himself.
By truth.8
No proof no talk. We face reality not view or shall I says is just assumption..reality is, many convict when was released use their skills to improve their life. This is fact…u can checkwith Malaysia government or here ; 1/12/2014 — Banduan Diajar Cara Bertani:- DSDr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi link : http://perakbn.my/2014/12/21122014-banduan-diajar-cara-bertani-ds-dr-ahmad-zahid-hamidi/Probably handful will return back to same habits…this need to be address insoft approached not harsh punishment..
Program Pemulihan Didik Bekas Banduan Untuk Berdikari
Oleh Noraidah Abd Karim
KAJANG, (Bernama) -- Masih ramai masyarakat memandang serong serta mempunyai perasaan takut terhadap bekas penghuni penjara yang mempunyai rekod jenayah silam.
Namun tanpa disedari ramai penghuni di sebalik 'tirai besi' itu setelah melalui beberapa aktiviti pemulihan mampu berubah menjadi individu normal lain selepas dibebaskan.
Baru-baru ini penulis menemubual Ketua Seksyen Pemulihan dan Rawatan Jabatan Penjara Malaysia (JPM), Darussalam Budin di pejabatnya di sini, untuk mendekati dengan lebih lanjut mengenai aktiviti pemulihan dalam penjara untuk menjadikan penghuninya seorang yang lebih baik daripada sebelumnya.
By sam:Political turmoil has got nothing to do withHudud. Why are you conflating political turmoil with hudud?
============================================== By truth.8 How would you says such? Did not politicalfrom PAS wanted to enforce hudud?
============================================= By sam
LOL , this shows that you are not paying attention to what Istated. It is true that the Indians are a marginalised race in this country.Why is it so? Only the people in power can answer such. I quote my post#29again :
I have never state that the Malays are alone in building theeconomy of this country. The Chinese cannot do it alone. The Indians are amarginalized race. Its again you are one bringing up racism in your argumentwhich has got nothing to do with Hudud. In fact your business is dependent onMalay patronage. Why are you condemning the very race that provides you withyour livelihood?
Areyou not the one bringing the factor of race into your argument , your post#28.Why are you denying what you stated?
======================================================================================
By truth.8
I do not seeIndians are marginalize race…doctor, lawyer , restaurant and etc…
Only inpasar malam I see lot malays and chinese traders…not sure why …but todate I do not hear Indianscomplaint business license is not approve or whatever…
So, you brining Indians being marginalized….which kind racism…andof course is outdated..because the indians not being marginalised...yes we see some indian taking samsu or todi day time...
============================================
By sam:
This is the question that youhave been avoiding. Why do you say its outdated? You have not provided anyevidence except a problem in administering the law. Enforcing the law has gotnothing to do with the law itself. For the people who don't agree with Hudud ,the question is still the same. What are you not in agreement with? Providereasons. Till now there is no good reason(s) provided.
=================================
By truth.8
Me avoiding …if I does that, why replying to you? Again I repeat , hududis outdated is not relevant at present moment…why? It was during your prophettimes…not much of sophisticated equipment and etc….today we have so many modernequipment facility and knowlege to guideand provide skills to convicts.. like I said, this will benefits both the government andthe convicts….meaning after the skills…the convict and contribute his work and earn a living …the government will getsome funds from this as well because it was the government efforts to provide such skills…again is winwin here…hudud? One hand gone…nothing in life…no direction…still blur and thisleads to tension and stress….finally leads to mental issue or commit suicide…
As for youverses on Bible…look like you not a scholar in Bible…Jesus always spoke inparable…is called PARABLE…
Looks like a Christian need to inform you (a muslim ) what is the meaning and the difference of theBible verses . It is embarrassing for you. Else you are just a hypocrite.
God Love HIS creations....God not GOD of revenge....when his creations repent (insaf), surly he will return back to normal life after serving in prison....
I am talking hudud in Malaysia . what is US got to do withmy thread? Smoking ganja is it?
So, where is the 77% statistic inMalaysia?
That is why I say that you are a person with below par intelligence. The figure of 77% is a response to your post#3 in bit part :
2). if hudud not implemented, this person will be send to prison to be punished according to modern law....while in lock up...the person will change.....when he/she leave the prison....he/she will contribute possitive direction for himself and country....not burden to others because in prison...I believed convict are taught how to be Independent ...teaching them in many skills using both HANDS.....this will leads such person to move forward to positive directions....
and your post#30 in bit part
If aperson commit hardcore crime….one can send to jail. Given the person harsh punishment for labour or provide the personskills training using hands……when such items was made in his own hand while inprison, this will benefits both…meaning the government and the convict ….those items made by HANDS, can be sold topublic at reasonable rate to cover the cost of expenditure in the prison andetc…..so is win win situation here…
With handchop off, this person become useless to himself/herself and burden to others and to government. Government need spoon feed that person once this convict free from the prison…
So, hududis not applicable at present time as weneed to progress forward not a kind of outdated law.
You are saying that jail is good enough. The numbers I provided shows that people who go to jail are repeat offenders. Meaning if the person steal , highly likely he is a repeat thief.
Do you actually know what you are talking about? You are like a drunkard pretending to be sober.
How would syariah makes the consesssion? Base on what? What proof?
How would syariah know he is profeesioanl thieves? Base onwhat? Proof?
When a person being brought to court , did the police not do any investigation? Waah! To you a person is straightaway brought to court without any prior investigation? Be logical and the very least try to think intelligently.
No proof no talk. We face reality not view or shall I says is just assumption..reality is, many convict when was released use their skills to improve their life. This is fact…u can checkwith Malaysia government or here ; 1/12/2014 — Banduan Diajar Cara Bertani:- DSDr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi link : http://perakbn.my/2014/12/211220 ... ahmad-zahid-hamidi/ Probably handful will return back to same habits…this need to be address insoft approached not harsh punishment..
Program Pemulihan Didik Bekas Banduan Untuk Berdikari
Oleh Noraidah Abd Karim
KAJANG, (Bernama) -- Masih ramai masyarakat memandang serong serta mempunyai perasaan takut terhadap bekas penghuni penjara yang mempunyai rekod jenayah silam.
Namun tanpa disedari ramai penghuni di sebalik 'tirai besi' itu setelah melalui beberapa aktiviti pemulihan mampu berubah menjadi individu normal lain selepas dibebaskan.
Baru-baru ini penulis menemubual Ketua Seksyen Pemulihan dan Rawatan Jabatan Penjara Malaysia (JPM), Darussalam Budin di pejabatnya di sini, untuk mendekati dengan lebih lanjut mengenai aktiviti pemulihan dalam penjara untuk menjadikan penghuninya seorang yang lebih baik daripada sebelumnya.
Berdikari...using both hands....so ? hudud relevant???
LOL , you do not even think before you argue. Are all these so called convicts people who are supposed to get their hands chopped off? Where in the article that says these convicts are all thieves who are supposed to get their hands chopped off? You are arguing based on one assumption after another. Silly , isn't it?
How would you says such? Did not politicalfrom PAS wanted to enforce hudud?
PAS wants to implement Hudud (not enforce at this moment). Trying to enforce Hudud has got nothing to do with political turmoil. The question here , what is your problem with Hudud. Why can't you give a good reason?
Death for drug pushers is Hudud in context. It is the penalty derived from Quran5:33. Why are you ok with this? You are not even consistent with your arguments.
I do not seeIndians are marginalize race…doctor, lawyer , restaurant and etc…
Only inpasar malam I see lot malays and chinese traders…not sure why …but todate I do not hear Indianscomplaint business license is not approve or whatever…
So, you brining Indians being marginalized….which kind racism…andof course is outdated..because the indians not being marginalised...yes we see some indian taking samsu or todi day time...
Can you now give me the percentage of Indians that are successful compared to other races? The Malays even though some are poor has got the support of the government but the Indians are being left behind. Isn't that marginalization of a particular race?
The truth is that there is steady erosion of Indian Malaysian identity due to gross government neglect. The 40,000 or more stateless Indians without identity cards are excluded from participating in society at large. Their children cannot take examinations, get entrance into university, or seek gainful employment.
A special committee under the Home Affairs Ministry was formed to handle registration of stateless Indians in January 2008, but no further news has been reported since. Squatter settlements are continually plagued with alcoholism, poor health facilities, and overcrowding. Teenage school dropouts get involved in underworld activities, such as gangsterism and prostitution.
Layers of marginalisation — economic, religious, racial — compound the sense of worthlessness amongst the lowest segments of the Indian Malaysian community. Youth in particular feel alienated, disengaged and disenfranchised with the system. This essentially leads to an identity crisis carried into adulthood.
I have evidence to back my claims but you are just arguing from your rear end.
Me avoiding …if I does that, why replying to you? Again I repeat , hududis outdated is not relevant at present moment…why? It was during your prophettimes…not much of sophisticated equipment and etc….today we have so many modernequipment facility and knowlege to guideand provide skills to convicts.. like I said, this will benefits both the government andthe convicts….meaning after the skills…the convict and contribute his work and earn a living …the government will getsome funds from this as well because it was the government efforts to provide such skills…again is winwin here…hudud? One hand gone…nothing in life…no direction…still blur and thisleads to tension and stress….finally leads to mental issue or commit suicide…
As for youverses on Bible…look like you not a scholar in Bible…Jesus always spoke inparable…is called PARABLE…
Looks like a Christian need to inform you (a muslim ) what is the meaning and the difference of theBible verses . It is embarrassing for you. Else you are just a hypocrite.
God Love HIS creations....God not GOD of revenge....when his creations repent (insaf), surly he will return back to normal life after serving in prison....
Say NO TO HUDUD....
Repeating something over and over again (ie. repeating that Hudud is outdated) does not make a convincing argument. I am asking you what is your problem with Hudud? If you say it is outdated then why it is so in addition to the fact that
- your bible calls for Hudud (cutting off the hand) and it goes one better , ie. plucking out the eye
- the current death penalty for drug pushers is in context Hudud.
On one hand you say it is outdated but your bible and part of the current law is Hudud in context.
Hudud doesn't mean cutting off the hands of all thieves. These guidelines have already been given but of course you are just too thick headed to read much less understand it.
In other words you are just arguing like a headless chicken chasing its own backside.
Ok then , tell me what is the parable that Jesus meant with the said verses. Jesus confirmed such with the statements
mat5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
mat18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
mark9:45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
What is the parable here considering Jesus stated the above that it is better to go thru life crippled rather than sinning. Can you explain?
Until now you cannot even provide reasons of why you are opposed to Hudud. If you don't have a valid reason why are you opposed to it? You don't make any sense. LOL , that is actually you ..... a person with no sense
You are saying that jail is good enough. The numbers I provided shows that people who go to jail are repeat offenders. Meaning if the person steal , highly likely he is a repeat thief.
Do you actually know what you are talking about? You are like a drunkard pretending to be sober.
where do you get the numbers?? how you justify to says repeat offenders? does those repeat offenders was interview to find the reason their motive? so, show me the evidence base on fact as per malaysia not usa...
as for The Stoning of Soraya M is truth base fact and research. muslims mostly in middle east not be trusted....maybe some are ok...reason they good with words to manipulate...
your rest of your question will be answer by tonite or tomorrow as I am busy guy ...i hve lot things to to do in my life not 24/7 online
Before I come back later , answer my killer question:
does your prophet who is un learned...ever think of implementing skills /or course for this convict during his time rather of thinking harsh punsihment like chop off hands??
Truth.8 replied at 15-2-2015 09:28 AM
where do you get the numbers?? how you justify to says repeat offenders? does those repeat offenders was interview to find the reason their motive? so, show me the evidence base on fact as per malaysia not usa...
as for The Stoning of Soraya M is truth base fact and research. muslims mostly in middle east not be trusted....maybe some are ok...reason they good with words to manipulate...
your rest of your question will be answer by tonite or tomorrow as I am busy guy ...i hve lot things to to do in my life not 24/7 online
Before I come back later , answer my killer question:
does your prophet who is un learned...ever think of implementing skills /or course for this convict during his time rather of thinking harsh punsihment like chop off hands??
Gee , I thought I provided the link of where I got the numbers. Did you read it? It is again evident you did not read anything. How do you go about to learn if you do not read anything?
Malaysia does not have a verified number. Hence we cannot use it. However the numbers I provided is about a reflection of what is happening. We are talking about repeat offenders. Repeated offenders means whatever skills they pick up in jail would go to waste as they would repeat their crime once they are released from jail.
Stranded in the remote Iranian village of Kuhpayeh by car trouble, a journalist is approached by Zahra, a woman with a harrowing tale to tell about her niece, Soraya, and the bloody circumstances of Soraya's death, by stoning, the previous day. The two sit down as Zahra recounts the story to Freidoune, who records the conversation with his tape recorder. The journalist must escape with his life to tell the story to the rest of the world.
The story is from a journalist who got it second hand from a lady who goes by the name of Zahra. However you claim its a true story. How can it be a true story as it is a recollection (hence heresay) from someone else? There is no fact nor research done.
The issue here is what are the conditions needed to be fullfilled before the hands chopped off. Like I stated , it is quite impossible for a person to face Hadd punishment as the conditions are quite stringent. The other issue is that why can a person survive with only one hand? A professional thief does not want to learn other skill sets.
You still have not answered me - what is your problem with Hudud?
Before I come back later , answer my killer question:
does your prophet who is un learned...ever think of implementing skills /or course for this convict during his time rather of thinking harsh punsihment like chop off hands??
you still did not answer my question:
does your prophet who is un learned...ever think of implementing skills /or course for this convict during his time rather of thinking harsh punsihment like chop off hands??
Gee , I thought I provided the link of where I got the numbers. Did you read it? It is again evident you did not read anything. How do you go about to learn if you do not read anything?
Malaysia does not have a verified number. Hence we cannot use it. However the numbers I provided is about a reflection of what is happening. We are talking about repeat offenders. Repeated offenders means whatever skills they pick up in jail would go to waste as they would repeat their crime once they are released from jail.
Gee oh gee....u did not provide the factual numbers base on malaysia static.....so now you admit malaysia does not have a verified number, hence you lie to create your own assumption to support you view....so, is void ...
Stranded in the remote Iranian village of Kuhpayeh by car trouble, a journalist is approached by Zahra, a woman with a harrowing tale to tell about her niece, Soraya, and the bloody circumstances of Soraya's death, by stoning, the previous day. The two sit down as Zahra recounts the story to Freidoune, who records the conversation with his tape recorder. The journalist must escape with his life to tell the story to the rest of the world.
The story is from a journalist who got it second hand from a lady who goes by the name of Zahra. However you claim its a true story. How can it be a true story as it is a recollection (hence heresay) from someone else? There is no fact nor research done.
what benefits she got to lie? hence is not created story rather is truth...
The issue here is what are the conditions needed to be fullfilled before the hands chopped off. Like I stated , it is quite impossible for a person to face Hadd punishment as the conditions are quite stringent. The other issue is that why can a person survive with only one hand? A professional thief does not want to learn other skill sets.
quite impossible ? meaning not sure...so is not workable here ratherwas outdated law which was introduced by unlearned perophet....
You still have not answered me - what is your problem with Hudud?
is all in this thread ....of course peoples like you will twiste here and there ...which normal in your society..
Truth.8 replied at 16-2-2015 09:45 AM
you still did not answer my question:
does your prophet who is un learned...ever think of implementing skills /or course for this convict during his time rather of thinking harsh punsihment like chop off hands??
LOL , I did answer but knowing you , a person who has comprehension problems will continuously asking the same questions hoping for a different answer. I copy paste my answer from my last post :
The issue here is what are the conditions needed to be fullfilled before the hands chopped off. Like I stated , it is quite impossible for a person to face Hadd punishment as the conditions are quite stringent. The other issue is that why can a person survive with only one hand? A professional thief does not want to learn other skill sets.
If you had understood my answer you would know that he instances of cutting off a person hand (not 2 hands yeah) in the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) were extremely rare due to the stringent conditions. Else the offenders would either require to payback what he stole or work it off which is quite common in ancient societies.
Back to your question , apart from the injunction of cutting of the hands in the bible , did biblical Jesus or the bible have any passages for skills course for convicts? LOL , I don't think you can answer because your so called 'killer question' is actually a stupid question.
Gee oh gee....u did not provide the factual numbers base on malaysia static.....so now you admit malaysia does not have a verified number, hence you lie to create your own assumption to support you view....so, is void ...
Why can't the numbers be a fair reflection to what is happening in Malaysia prison system? There is no actual numbers done in any study. The closest one is by a team from USM (pg 2), bit part of the quote :
The structure of the current institutionalised character strengthening programmes is as follows:
military marching exercises, moral or religious classes, optional main stream education, and vocational training (Ibid). Recidivism rates suggest that such efforts are not working (Ibid). During the vocational training and group social interactions, petty criminals may actually learn knowledge and skills to better carry out crimes
Therefore in an way it reflects the comparative figures I cited , rehabilitation is not working. Again , I have data whereas you have auta.
He went on to show that 75 % of those convicted of crimes did so due to unemployment and difficulty in finding a higher paying job.
The study also showed that amongst the convicted criminals 43 % of them did so to upkeep their drug related habits.
These are not cases for the implementation of Hadd punishment because the crime committed is due to lack of means to find a living and also not of sound mind (driven by addiction).
Hudud is not a straightforward 'chop both hands' as naively argued by you. Only people of lesser intelligence argue as such.
The story is from a journalist who got it second hand from a lady who goes by the name of Zahra. However you claim its a true story. How can it be a true story as it is a recollection (hence heresay) from someone else? There is no fact nor research done.
what benefits she got to lie? hence is not created story rather is truth...
Can you explain to me just how can the story of Soraya M be the truth when the Journalist only got it is from a second hand source , ie heresay. The said journalist did not see it first hand. How in the world can it be claimed to be the truth? Not 'truth.8' who only is know to auta but the truth.
is all in this thread ....of course peoples like you will twiste here and there ...which normal in your society..
LOL , if you cannot answer do not blame other sof twisting facts. All my fact and reference have links which you can verify. However your argument is like how to 'basuh berak' , story from second hand source , ie heresay etc.
So what is the problem with Hudud?
- you say cannot 'basuh berak' because 2 hands cutoff but in reality only one hand cut off
- you say rehabilitation but in reality the programme has failed and most are repeated offenders
- unemployment and drug addicts make the majority of thefts but these are not punishable by Hudud
- you are inconsistent as you are ok with death for drug pushers and the bible cutting off the hands which is in context Hudud
Everything you argue comes back at you because you are ignorant of Hudud. Until now you are too scared to provide a valid reason of you against Hudud. In other words you don't know what you are talking about.
LOL , I did answer but knowing you , a person who has comprehension problems will continuously asking the same questions hoping for a different answer. I copy paste my answer from my last post :
The issue here is what are the conditions needed to be fullfilled before the hands chopped off. Like I stated , it is quite impossible for a person to face Hadd punishment as the conditions are quite stringent. The other issue is that why can a person survive with only one hand? A professional thief does not want to learn other skill sets.
how u know professionale theif not interested learing skills? maybe in other country got lah..but you i never heard of it...again you makind own assumption..hence your prophet who is un learn....claime it was from god...any proof for his claim??
If you had understood my answer you would know that he instances of cutting off a person hand (not 2 hands yeah) in the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw) were extremely rare due to the stringent conditions. Else the offenders would either require to payback what he stole or work it off which is quite common in ancient societies.
are you saying there is no hand cutting during your prophet time?
Back to your question , apart from the injunction of cutting of the hands in the bible , did biblical Jesus or the bible have any passages for skills course for convicts? LOL , I don't think you can answer because your so called 'killer question' is actually a stupid question.
you dont even understand parabale??? just like the malay says " if you see snake and indian...u kill indians...does it mean to kill indians? or just parable??
Why can't the numbers be a fair reflection to what is happening in Malaysia prison system? There is no actual numbers done in any study. The closest one is by a team from USM (pg 2), bit part of the quote :
The structure of the current institutionalised character strengthening programmes is as follows:
military marching exercises, moral or religious classes, optional main stream education, and vocational training (Ibid). Recidivism rates suggest that such efforts are not working (Ibid). During the vocational training and group social interactions, petty criminals may actually learn knowledge and skills to better carry out crimes
why not working? something wrong with the administration not convict...
Therefore in an way it reflects the comparative figures I cited , rehabilitation is not working. Again , I have data whereas you have auta.
He went on to show that 75 % of those convicted of crimes did so due to unemployment and difficulty in finding a higher paying job.
The study also showed that amongst the convicted criminals 43 % of them did so to upkeep their drug related habits.
unemployment ..yes local are unemployed because our country hiring too many bangla, indon and etc...in every sectors,,,hotels, supermarket and etc...
hence this leads our local jobless..
who u blame?
These are not cases for the implementation of Hadd punishment because the crime committed is due to lack of means to find a living and also not of sound mind (driven by addiction).
Hudud is not a straightforward 'chop both hands' as naively argued by you. Only people of lesser intelligence argue as such.
now you twisting like snake...in your hadiths and quran itself says chopping off hand if one would to seal...are you denying??
Can you explain to me just how can the story of Soraya M be the truth when the Journalist only got it is from a second hand source , ie heresay. The said journalist did not see it first hand. How in the world can it be claimed to be the truth? Not 'truth.8' who only is know to auta but the truth.
once it filem...it well researched...hence it can be trust..
[/quote][quote]LOL , if you cannot answer do not blame other sof twisting facts. All my fact and reference have links which you can verify. However your argument is like how to 'basuh berak' , story from second hand source , ie heresay etc.
So what is the problem with Hudud?
- you say cannot 'basuh berak' because 2 hands cutoff but in reality only one hand cut off
- you say rehabilitation but in reality the programme has failed and most are repeated offenders
- unemployment and drug addicts make the majority of thefts but these are not punishable by Hudud
- you are inconsistent as you are ok with death for drug pushers and the bible cutting off the hands which is in context Hudud
Everything you argue comes back at you because you are ignorant of Hudud. Until now you are too scared to provide a valid reason of you against Hudud. In other words you don't know what you are talking about.
nope it did not come to me rather to you because you claimed not 'Hudud is not a straightforward 'chop both hands' as naively argued by you. Only people of lesser intelligence argue as such."
by such claimed, you are confused.....
Post time 13-2-2015 10:49 AM
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