Reply 259# belacan79
Don't under estimate TNI.
RSN and RMN will hv to re-quip its sensor/counter measures to face the "yahont threat".
Ada CIWS pun dah cukup aku rasa...
Ada CIWS pun dah cukup aku rasa...
tempur Post at 27-4-2011 16:52 http://forum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
yang penting
CIWS / ECM / VLS
Reply 261# cmf_nando
SAF does not underestimate anyone. This is shown by our military acquisitions and technological progress. We have over the horizon assessments and our acquisitions are tailored accordingly.
yakhont needs over the horizon cueing and targetting.otherwise, the range is limited to 60km or less similar to all anti-ship missiles. indonesian air assets pales to rmaf. if rmaf can control the air, there is nothing to worry about. furthermore, rmaf sensors and radars are much better. in a conflict, indonesian tubs will be easily detected by rmaf air assets meaning you will be popping indonesian ships long before they can strike.
indonesia needs the yakhont as deterrence for its ageing fleet and large archipelago. also, it is cheaper than western equivalents.
belacan79 Post at 27-4-2011 02:47 http://mforum2.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
You should put a big "IF" there mate..
Even Israeli Defense Force worries about Syrian plan to acquire Yakhont, although it's superior by far compared to its Syrian counterpart. The disparity between Malaysia and Indonesia air assets is not significant. 3 squadrons of TNI-AU's Su-30/27, F-16 and F-5 still on par compared to 4 squadrons of RMAF's Su-30, F-18, Mig-29, and F-5.
Not to mention, Indonesia is able to manufacture MPA and ASW platforms (C-212, CN-235, Bell-412, EC-725).
Post Last Edit by belacan79 at 28-4-2011 16:50
Reply 265# adin
israel does not want any upgrades to any of the armed forces of its perceived enemies. that is only natural. barak 1 missiles have already been upgraded to deal with yakhontsplease dont start a conparison between air frames ofmalaysian and indonesian airforces.indonesian planes do not fare well when compared with the systems carried on malaysian planes. just compare your suks to malay suks. so what if you are planning to deploy mpas, etc. it means zilch if you cannot dominate skies. everything within 800km of singapore is trackable. everything 1000km north of darwin is trackable.
Replyadvark
Apa cerita, brunei hadiah 2 biji kapal peronda ke TNI?
cmf_nando Post at 27-4-2011 13:36 http://mforum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
hal yg paling dasar kerana tentera laut brunei kekurangan pegawai/ anak kapal bro... dikeranakan brunei baru shj membeli 3 kapal perang yg berukuran lebih besar dari german dan kekurangan pegawai/anak kapal tuk mengawakinya terpaksa pegawai2/anak kapal dari kapal perang lama (kapal perang yg dihibahkan) di transfer ke kapal perang yg baru ni, jadi daripada ke 2 kapal ni tersadai di port dan tuk menjimat cost maintenance lebih baik kapal ni di hibahkan.
Post Last Edit by adin at 28-4-2011 22:08
Replybelacan79
israel does not want any upgrades to any of the armed forces of its perceived enemies. that is only natural. barak 1 missiles have already been upgraded to deal with yakhonts
Israel didn't give a shit when Iran and Syria acquired silkworm C-802 from China. Since technology wise, C-802 doesn't pose significant threat to Israeli navy.
Israel upgraded Barak to deal with yakhont.. that's not natural... it shows that they have a big concern toward yakhont.
please dont start a conparison between air frames ofmalaysian and indonesian airforces.indonesian planes do not fare well when compared with the systems carried on malaysian planes. just compare your suks to malay suks. so what if you are planning to deploy mpas, etc. it means zilch if you cannot dominate skies.
You started the comparison, not me
Please tell me in what aspect does Msia Sukhois have a better system compared to Indo's Sukhois? Msian replaced the original hardware and software containing Israeli technology on its Sukhois, while Indos maintain all the original setting/systems. The original system has already battle proven (by Russian Air Force). The "upgraded" Msia system is not yet battle proven.
everything within 800km of singapore is trackable. everything 1000km north of darwin is trackable.
Oh yeah... SG and Aussie strong!!!
Post Last Edit by belacan79 at 29-4-2011 03:27
Israel didn't give a shit when Iran and Syria acquired silkworm C-802 from China. Since technolo ...
adin Post at 28-4-2011 22:02 http://eforum1.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
The upgrades are software in nature to deal better with meandering supersonic missiles. It is only natural to adapt to varying threats. Silkworms are subsonic. At any rate, has the strategic security equation changed for the Israelis with the introduction of the Yakhonts? Hardly. Syria will still lose.This shows that you need large systemic changes involving a whole range of sensors and shooters. That will take years and years of dedicated effort. Syria will never reach the Israeli level of military technological precision and capability unless this happens.
You should also read up on how Israel completely neutralized Russian air defence missiles through electronic attacks. Google "Suter".Thats how vulnerable Russian systems are and how far behind they are in some technologies.Little wonder both India and Malaysia opted for western systems in their Suks. :)
You started the comparison, not me
Please tell me in what aspect does Msia Sukhois have a better system compared to Indo's Sukhois? Msian replaced the original hardware and software containing Israeli technology on its Sukhois, while Indos maintain all the original setting/systems. The original system has already battle proven (by Russian Air Force). The "upgraded" Msia system is not yet battle proven.
I only made a generic statement that Malaysian planes are generally better than Indonesian ones. Are you saying this is not true?
As far as I know, Indian Suk MKI has Israeli components which are rated better than the original Russian ones. Malaysia realizes this as well but she got French, South African, etc components instead.
You have 5 su-27 and 5 su-30? That pales to Malaysia's 18 Su-30s.
Yeah, thats right. The original Su-27 is battle proven. Against banana republics. The Su-30 is hardly battle proven at all. Next you have 10 F16 Blk 15s OCU. Certainly not a match against Malaysias 8 F18 C/D. Malaysia still operates 10 later versions of Mig 29s and 7-8 F5E which are better than your 15 F5E.
I think the Yakhonts are good value for money deterrence in the sense that it is long legged. However, that long range is only possible with aerial guidance. In times of conflict, air power is crucial. If an opponent denies air dominance, the Yakhont becomes just another missile like the Exocet. RMAFcan do that certainly, though she will stretched thin. Also, kindly note that Malaysia has harpoons in addition to Exocets. Harpoons can be upgraded. Some versions have range as far as 315km from 140km. It is not disclosed which countries which have upgraded the basic harpoon. However, it is known that Israeli harpoons have been upgraded with much longer range and re-attack capability.
belacan79The upgrades are software in nature to deal better with meandering supersonic missiles. It is only natural to adapt to varying threats. Silkworms are subsonic. At any rate, has the strategic security equation changed for the Israelis with the introduction of the Yakhonts? Hardly. Syria will still lose.This shows that you need large systemic changes involving a whole range of sensors and shooters. That will take years and years of dedicated effort. Syria will never reach the Israeli level of military technological precision and capability unless this happens.
Upgrade can both natural and "unnatural", it depends on the determinant. If you upgraded your windows vista to windows 7 because everyone else do it, that's natural. But, if you upgraded before everyone else since you realize windows vista is vulnerable to virus attack, that's not natural... it's an anticipatory upgrade. Israeli case qualifies in the later.
Yakhont for Syria (and S-300 for Iran) will surely make the equation change in mideast. Syria plan to acquire naval version and land version of Yakhont. A land-based Yakhont sold by Russia include a land based search radar and helicopter mounted radars to locate targets over the horizon. This is a real threat to Israel, which remind them to SCUD attacks in the gulfwar. If deployed in Lebanon, it can reach all major cities in Israel. From a naval warfare perspective, Syria can pinpoint any Israeli ship within 300km of Syrian shore using this land-based Yakhont. A superior air force will still have a hard time finding the sites. It applies to SG case. A sneaky land-based Yakhont system in any island within 300 km from SG can pinpoint RSN ships with ease. Your so called 800 km tracking system is not that strong afterall. You'll need an iron dome instead
Post Last Edit by adin at 29-4-2011 10:24
belacan79 You should also read up on how Israel completely neutralized Russian air defence missiles through electronic attacks. Google "Suter".Thats how vulnerable Russian systems are and how far behind they are in some technologies.Little wonder both India and Malaysia opted for western systems in their Suks
Air defense system = AAW system...are u kidding? Air defense system mainly static, thus easy to be jammed. Jet fighter is highly mobile.. not losing connection when trying to jamming it is already an achievement.
Beside, Muslim solidarity (and domestic politics) is one of the main reason behind Msia decision to strip off Israeli technology in its Sukhois. Based on your argument, Israel owns the technology needed by Msia to disable or jammming Indo's Sukhois. I believe most of Msian forumners here will against any acquisition of Israeli technology. Hence, your point is irrelevant.
I only made a generic statement that Malaysian planes are generally better than Indonesian ones. Are you saying this is not true?
As far as I know, Indian Suk MKI has Israeli components which are rated better than the original Russian ones. Malaysia realizes this as well but she got French, South African, etc components instead.
And hows the Msian system rated? Hows the compatibility and reliability? It's a new and untested system...
You have 5 su-27 and 5 su-30? That pales to Malaysia's 18 Su-30s.
Quantity strong!!!
Tell that to Red Baron
Yeah, thats right. The original Su-27 is battle proven. Against banana republics. The Su-30 is hardly battle proven at all. Next you have 10 F16 Blk 15s OCU. Certainly not a match against Malaysias 8 F18 C/D. Malaysia still operates 10 later versions of Mig 29s and 7-8 F5E which are better than your 15 F5E.
In front of Russia military might, all South East Asia countries qualify as banana republic. Georgia for example, has more medium and long range SAM than Msia and SG.
Quantity strong! Until you have a shortage of fighter pilots.
Tumpang tanya, insiden kat bawah saper yang lock Sukhoi indon ? UFO ? RAAF ? US ? TUDM ? hehe...
"...Sukhoi yang mengalami "missile lock" sewaktu terbang di atas perairan Sulawesi Selatan pada 21 Februari 2009.....""
Post Last Edit by belacan79 at 30-4-2011 13:46
Reply 272# adin
You seem intentionally misleading. I have already stated in my preceding post that software upgrades were made to Barak 1s to make them better in handling supersonic missiles. The Barak 1 is a defensive missile that is supposed to handle incoming missiles. Are you trying to tell me that it is not natural to upgrade its capabilities versus varying threats? And does it matter when the upgrade is made? I am able to glean your contention here. You are trying to show proof that your beloved Yakhont is the end all and be all of weapons where Malaysia is concerned. It is not. It will only change certain tactical considerations. I iterate what I have said in my last post. The strategic equation has not changed. Syria will still lose to Israel in any conventional conflict. You mentioned about Syria having land based radars as well as helicopters. Are you even not cognizant as per Israel’s potent air force and aerial sensors.? No Syrian aerial vehicle will be flying if Israel decides to commence aerial hostilities. The Syrian airforce is laughable. At any rate, these are tactical issues. Israel in the process of deploying a better layered air defence shield to catch stray leakers. Again, it will not change the strategic picture. Israel has and will continue to trounce the Syrian military in any conventional conflict. All land-based radar emitters are restricted by the horizon; that is less than 50-60 km. Now, I have already mentioned about this. The earth is not a flat plane. Draw a straight line from a ground or sea emitter and you will realize that it cannot see beneath a certain angle. Try finding ships using these land bases radars now. :)That is why countries buy AEW & C planes. Secondly, such radar emitters light up like Christmas trees. More so, accompanying communication facilities will light up like beacons. They will be the first to be taken out in any conflict. You do understand that when I am talking about detection range, it includes both aerial and land based platforms. In the case of both Singapore and Australia, that includes Australia’s JORN, MESA Wedgetail AEW & C planes, MPAs, Heron MALE UAVs and Singapore’s version of JORN, Phlacon Gulfstream AEW & C planes, Heron MALE UAVs, Hermes MALE UAVs, MPAs, etc. This constitutes persistent, multiple and overlapping coverage (includes wide area SAR) of large land and sea domains encompassing both precision targeting and tracking capabilities and electronic, intelligence, and communication gathering and analysis. Do you know that with such precision information, our fighters can fly nose cold ( that is their radars will be switched off). Why do think we want the F35s? Why do you think australia wants F35? F35 is just a shooter node in our networks and a good and stealthy one. You wont see where our missiles and bombs are coming from. In my preceding email, I mentioned “Suter”. I urge you to read it once more. Syrian radar and missile systems were fooled and shut down by Israeli electronic warfare systems. That is the beauty of Russian systems. And that is the power and capability of modern electronic attack and countermeasures. The newer Yakhont missiles are important to Indonesia in order to maintain current levels of deterrence in view of ageing hulls and systems. It is important for you as a counter insurgency force tasked to stop the archipelago from breaking up. But lets not give it a degree of importance that it does not have, shall we?:loveliness:
* edited for clarity as i had posted from my iphone.
Reply 259# belacan79
I think belacan79 trying to consoled himself with compliment toward rmaf..
18 Sukhoi rmaf can control Indonesia?? Oh my gosh,, it's the real war or console game??
Replyadin
The earth is not a flat plane
belacan79 Post at 29-4-2011 12:44 http://mforum.cari.com.my/images/common/back.gif
the real war is not a flat plane too..
so can stop comparing both army now??
Post Last Edit by belacan79 at 30-4-2011 18:51
Reply 276# shantika
RMAF against what odds or scenario? Certainly not against the indon airforce.. Generic statements like this does not prove your point. It is like saying East Timor can give you a good whacking. Air defense system = AAW system...are u kidding? Air defense system mainly static, thus easy to be jammed. Jet fighter is highly mobile.. not losing connection when trying to jamming it is already an achievement.
Beside, Muslim solidarity (and domestic politics) is one of the main reason behind Msia decision to strip off Israeli technology in its Sukhois. Based on your argument, Israel owns the technology needed by Msia to disable or jammming Indo's Sukhois. I believe most of Msian forumners here will against any acquisition of Israeli technology. Hence, your point is irrelevant.
I only made a generic statement that Malaysian planes are generally better than Indonesian ones. Are you saying this is not true?
As far as I know, Indian Suk MKI has Israeli components which are rated better than the original Russian ones. Malaysia realizes this as well but she got French, South African, etc components instead.
And hows the Msian system rated? Hows the compatibility and reliability? It's a new and untested system...
You have 5 su-27 and 5 su-30? That pales to Malaysia's 18 Su-30s.
Quantity strong!!!
Tell that to Red Baron
Yeah, thats right. The original Su-27 is battle proven. Against banana republics. The Su-30 is hardly battle proven at all. Next you have 10 F16 Blk 15s OCU. Certainly not a match against Malaysias 8 F18 C/D. Malaysia still operates 10 later versions of Mig 29s and 7-8 F5E which are better than your 15 F5E.
In front of Russia military might, all South East Asia countries qualify as banana republic. Georgia for example, has more medium and long range SAM than Msia and SG.
Quantity strong! Until you have a shortage of fighter pilots.Lol. If your contention is true, not one country would invest in AAW systems. I pointed out a clear case of Russian ineptitude. After so long and advances, their systems failed as the Israelis took over their Syrian-Russian systems from the inside out. They never saw Israeli planes flying in to kill their nuclear reactor. And their missiles were shut down.
I wasnt talking about Israeli systems per se adopted by the Indian air force. I simply pointed out that countries arfe ditching Russian systems for better ones outside sold by countries such as France, Israel, etc. Use a bit of logic. If the original Russian systems are so good, would they want not to keep it. The same for Chinese Suks. :) And come on. Georgias aaw systems are antiquated and Red Baron would be overwhelmed by technological advances for which his human finesse could not overcome.
Reply 277# shantika
Your point being? I was responding specifically to the limits of ground based radars and emitters. What I have done is to clarify the realistic effects as per the introduction of the yakhont on here. If you look at the picture holistically, the strategic equation does not change much. You might not like it. But discerning people can tell. Of course, there are others who like to blow their trumpets.
Post Last Edit by belacan79 at 30-4-2011 18:40
Reply 277# shantika
All right. ill stop. We all want to peace in the region dont we? :bye: Just remember that everything is temporal. There will always be better systems and weapons and thereafter, improvements for better weapons. Muscle flexing on account of a newly purchased weapon is churlish when viewed in isolation. And that is not good for regional solidarity. The same goes for random acts of bullying against other countries. Some countries take it quietly. Others will take a hammer and bonk your heads. It does not need to be military. For example, you can move billions out of country or offload billions of a foreign currency and force an immediate financial crisis. Good day mates.