Sistem Kasta (merged: Sinbad^boy)

hamizao

Sorry Sephi, if I seem to be asking too many questions. They are well intended, I assure you.

Thanks

junkredish

Sephiroth,

dalam Islam memang tidak wujud sistem kasta ataupun pengelasan individu tertentu. ulama bukan sejenis golongan "elit" seperti golongan pendita@sami dalam yahudi, kristian, buddha atau hindu. malahan dalam Islam tidak pernah wujud golongan seperti ini. semua manusia sama sahaja disisi Allah, yang membezakan ialah ketakwaan(keimanan) mereka sahaja. tidak kiralah mereka itu ulama atau tidak. ada beberapa ritual keagamaan yang membayangkan secara simbolik kesamarataan ini, misalnya memakai ihram dan kain kapan.

ulama pada takrif asalnya lebih dirujuk kepada golongan yang berilmu tinggi tentang ilmu-ilmu Islam spt fekah, tauhid, sirah, tafsir dan sebagainya. cuma akhirnya seolah-olah menjadi satu anggapan ataupun seakan-akan satu etika bahawa ulama itu bkn shj mereka yang berilmu tinggi dalam Islam, tetapi mempraktikkan juga apa yang dikatakannya, atau dgn kata lain mempunyai kealiman yang tinggi juga. tujuannya tidaklah nanti ada lahirnya segolongan yg cakap tak serupa bikin. ataupun mungkin ada org bkn Islam yg belajar Islam secara mendalam akan dipanggil ulama.

jikalau secara analoginya kita boleh umpamakan ulama itu spt doktor perubatan. doktor perubatan adalah pakar dlm ilmu2 perubatan. jd klu kita ada masalah ttg perubatan, doktor akan menjadi rujukan utama. sama juga spt ulama, kalau ada permasalahan utama ttg ilmu-ilmu Islam, pakar ilmu-ilmu Islamlah yg menjadi rujukan, dlm kes ini adalah ulamak, kerana dia mmg pakar dlm bidang berkenaan.

anda mungkin bertanya kenapa ada dikalangan org Islam yg agak taksub sehingga mahukan ulama menjadi pemimpin mereka? itu sebenarnya lebih kpd tanggapan/tafsiran peribadi, iyalah spt yg saya sebutkan tadi, sbb secara etikanya ulama itu juga dianggap org yg mempunyai kealiman yg tinggi, jd secara stereotype/tradisionalnya org sebegini sesuai menjadi pemimpin. mmg ramai dikalangan ulama yg menjadi pemimpin masyarakat Islam, tetapi ramai juga ulama yang tidak menjadi pemimpin.

saya ingat beberapa pandangan tipikal spt ini terhadap Islam patut dibasmi. samalah spt pandangan yg menganggap wanita dikelasduakan dalam Islam. tetapi hakikatnya Siti Khadijah (isteri nabi) adalah seorang wanita yang sgt berjaya dlm kerjayanya. juga Siti Aishah adalah seorang pemimpin angkatan perang, lama sebelum Joan of Arc di Perancis.

hamizao

Originally posted by junkredish at 29-12-2005 03:37 PM
Sephiroth,

dalam Islam memang tidak wujud sistem kasta ataupun pengelasan individu tertentu. ulama bukan sejenis golongan "elit" seperti golongan pendita@sami dalam yahudi, kristian, b ...

Saya kira ada sedikit misunderstanding di sini.

Mungkin saudara Sephi mahu jelaskan..??

fleurzsa

Originally posted by junkredish at 29-12-2005 03:37 PM
Sephiroth,
dalam Islam memang tidak wujud sistem kasta ataupun pengelasan individu tertentu. ulama bukan sejenis golongan "elit" seperti golongan pendita@sami dalam yahudi, kristian, b ...

Ini board Hinduism.

Tidak digalakkan membincangkan ttg agama lain di sini.

Bagaimana pun boleh kaitkan serba sedikit hal2 agama lain utk menguatkan hujah.

Thanks

hamizao

You are absolutely correct.

apang

so masa tamadun india dulu,apa kesan sistem kasta ni terhadap sistem sosial masyrakat waktu tu?i'm just curious.

apang

i mean dari segi pekerjaan,kedudukan...ada kesan tak?

hamizao

My humble opinion.... All my previous understanding of what "caste system" is, though little, was also quite inaccurate at least in it's origin. What it has evolved into is something different. So, I am open to corrections by others.

When the Aryan came to settle down in N India around 2000-1500BCE, they were believed to have done so through migration as opposed to a recent theory of invasion. The region was then peopled by a nation of pastoral and agricultural people consisting of tribes under chiefs. Eventually there arose the Aryan civilization in the northern plains while the Dravidians civilization in the south. The Aryans culture had 3 main characters :

1. Language - Sanskrit, a refined Aryan language
2. Religion - a polytheistic Brahmanic faith with Gods like Indra, Agni and Saraswa etc.
3. Social Structure - Society is divided  into 3 classes of people according to their nature(Varna)ie.education and knowledge.

A little about this social structure:

There were 3 main categories for the Aryan people themselves (1-3)and 1 for the other native people(4):
1. Priests(Brahmin)
2. Warriors(Kshatriyas)
3. Agriculturalists & traders(Vaisyas)
4. Native servants (Sudras)

They were basically occupational or professional classifications. There was nothing unique about such social structure except that it was much more formalised and therefore prominent with the Aryans. Priests, being the most influencial and educated, wrote hymns for each class e.g Rigveda(science of praise) for the priests, Samaveda(science of chant) for the warriors, Samaveda (science of sacrifice) for the other people and later on the Atharvaveda(science of ritual) for the non-Aryan servants and untouchable native population. Each holds info, knowledge and rituals of it's class, the first 3 classes being assigned separate divine origins. They became known as the 4 Vedas, books of Hinduism.

As time went on new tribes came into the folds or influence of the Aryan culture such that new occupations arose. Hence new classes and sub-classes arose. Later a 5th group was created for the very low of lows, the untouchables. However, there were problems with communication and ppl of different tribes lived separately and some isolated although politically and religiously they were one.

Rulers or kings came from the warrior class. There were 16 Aryan kingdoms. The Rajputs however were were not Aryans, so when they became rulers, the leaders were accepted into the warrior class while the rest of the clan remained in their allocated class. This does demonstrate the possibile movement between classes.

The priests were divine interpreters. They influence other tribes through absorption of values rather than conquest ....naturally this took a longer time. They managed to maintain other non-Aryan tribes by allowing abroginal worships. They accepted native gods and turn them into representation of Aryan theocracy, assimilated local practices and taught their faith blending in with the local ones.

When the Aryan influence went further south into Dravidian country, the Deccan, they also acquired new tribes into occupations eg.the Telugus(eastern side) and Rattas(western side). They had a new social law book - Code of Apasthamba. Somehow, The Tamils further south were not penetrated. However Aryan imigrants later brought their religion and ultimately the Dravidian original faith became superceded by Brahminism/Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism which coexisted.

So, it's civilization was built upon such social structure.

However, much of the Vedas teachings were passed down orally with great accuracy. Perhaps also it was this that later allowed the social structure to be abused and exploited by many parties perhaps for selfish reasons. Society became patriachal. Women became inferior. Girls were not given education and were married off while very young.

During the Mauryan Empire, the social system became harden and hereditary in occupation and profession and it continued to spread even during Asoka's reign  when the official religion was Buddhism and later Islam under the Moguls. Yes, the Aryan kings fought with each other and fought with foreign forces too such as the Persians under Darius the Great, the Greeks under Alexander the Great, the Syrians/Babylonians under Seleukos. It is believed that the strength of their social system that managed to repell much more devastation from foreign onslaught.

Some historians reckon that the word "caste" was coined by the Europeans( "Casta" is the word in Portuguese) who brought their own class system of bureaucrats, aristocrats and commoners and map it to what was then in India which then gave rise to prejudice and unfair practices. Some say it was with a purpose to divide and rule. :hmm:

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 21-7-2006 12:37 PM ]

barney50

[

1. response from:hamizao:My humble opinion.... All my previous understanding of what "caste system"

Copy the Code

Yes, you are correct and people were mislead by the westerners because they wanted to spread Chrstianity in India.

Caste system is based on the vocation of each individual clan.

Brahmins (the priests and academics)
Kshatriyas (rulers, military)
Vaishyas (farmers, landlords, and merchants)
Sudras (peasants, servants, and workers in non-polluting jobs).

But that does not mean a Sudra cannot become a brahmin or a Kastriya could not be clasified as a Sudra. You are what you are. If a Kasrtiya does not carry out his duty well and involves himself in undignified manner he is clasfied as a Sudra. If a brahmin does te same he becomes a Sudra too. So, when most non Hindus hear about the caste system of Hindusim they think Hinduism looks down on lower profession. Well, thay are wrong.

And for your information Aryan is not an invader from outside India. I have given the meaning of what Arayan means in Sanskrit in the Religin and Sprituality forum. It refers to peole of high calibre or intelligence such as the Rishis and Sages of the vedic period. The root word Arya means intelligence. The Arayan theory by the westerners is a hoax coz they thought India was like Africa and would not have such intelligent people. But now modern historians realize the real truth and history is being rewritten.

hamizao

By barney:

But that does not mean a Sudra cannot become a brahmin or a Kastriya could not be clasified as a Sudra. You are what you are. If a Kasrtiya does not carry out his duty well and involves himself in undignified manner he is clasfied as a Sudra. If a brahmin does te same he becomes a Sudra too. So, when most non Hindus hear about the caste system of Hindusim they think Hinduism looks down on lower profession. Well, thay are wrong.

I think I have demonstrated how mobile the members of the caste were.....It may have been a good thing then as parents in a clan/caste could pass on their vocational knowledge to their children and train them well. I have also mentioned their ability to repel the onslaught of foreign armies with few devastations.

By barney:

And for your information Aryan is not an invader from outside India. I have given the meaning of what Arayan means in Sanskrit in the Religin and Sprituality forum. It refers to peole of high calibre or intelligence such as the Rishis and Sages of the vedic period. The root word Arya means intelligence. The Arayan theory by the westerners is a hoax coz they thought India was like Africa and would not have such intelligent people. But now modern historians realize the real truth and history is being rewritten.

Well, barney, I did not say that the Aryans were invaders. I am  also well aware that the AIT(Aryan Invasion Theory) hold very little evidence. There are efforts and writings to the effect that the so called Aryans and Dravidians are one race whose physical differences are due to regional climate. Max Muller who discovered the Indo-European language family, has denied that the Aryan was ever a race. Perhaps it is the lack of certainty that gave rise to various theories as to who these people were. However, research into the DNA show similarity between the top 2 castes - close semblance to Caucasian/European Y chromosome- hence adding more weight to the possibility of  migratiion of the caucasoids  into India.

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 21-7-2006 02:19 PM ]

hammer

:nerd:

[ Last edited by  fleurzsa at 26-8-2006 10:12 PM ]

pino

erm...nk tny bley???ape kesan sistem kaste dr segi politik n ekonomi n lain2 ar pd zaman ni ar....ade lg ke sistem kasta skrg????

hamizao

To my understanding, the caste system had become intricately woven into the very fabric of Hindu society for thousands of years. With the effect of different rulers, it became more hereditary ....possibly also for gaining better control of the population. Nothing was left to chance and the ancient law makers ensured observance of law prescribed for the people by attaching religious remification to every law...even on manners, customs and principles that dictinct one caste from another...laws were religiously followed. My feeling is it had become a very complicated thing such that the later powers like the Portuguese found it necessary to absorb all the caste distinction within the Christianity they spread.(Ref: Census Report of 1891)

Yet, what were some of the distinctions? Some of the customs are the cut, colour and style of clothes and jewels/ornaments and how they are displayed, funeral rites, marriage ceremonies and other rites, colour of flags at ceremonies, manners of cleansing, greetings, forbidden  food, architecture of houses, cooking pots, manners of sleeping, forms of civility and politeness to name a few. They are severely regulated People are given names to denote employment  and within each name group there may be customs perculiar to that group only, no matter how absurd it may be to a foreigner.

For example, the Nair women may have more than one husband. Nambudiri girls were usually married off before they reach puberty. Kullans' robbing  was a hereditary right. Some Sunderas of hill tribes ..once they put on clothes, it was never changed or washed ....just wore them till they drop from rottenness.....................and many more...........

I believe it is difficult to eradicate every custom that is incongruous with present day ideals as the power that be cannot see into peoples' homes.  One of the efforts put has been in the field of education. I came to understand that other divisions "Factions" has come to light as a modern invention....Left Hand Faction consisting of Vaisyas (trading class) and lower Sundras. Right Hand Faction consisting of higher Sundras and Pariahs the chief supporters of the Sundras and causing the most disturbances. Apparently the disturbances are due to certain exclusive privileges they were claiming which had not been clearly defined or recognised. So this caused confusion and often erupted into fights ....though lesser these days.

I understand caste distinctions still exist. From observations made by friends who have been to the subcontinent, there seem to be a sense of " knowing their place". :hmm: I just wonder...........

I also learned that there are opinions to the effect that had the Hindu people not been held and controlled into castes, India may have lapsed into a state of barbarism. Thus was she able to preserve and perfected the arts and sciences of civilization while most other nations of the earth languid in a state of barbarism. The passing down of skills from father to son generations after generations would have perfected the arts and industries to a much greater height. But alas, no sooner had an artisan gained reputation of excelling in his craft he was "carried off" by order of of the ruler......

[ Last edited by  hamizao at 17-10-2006 10:13 PM ]

Ini board Hinduism.

Tidak digalakkan membincangkan ttg agama lain di sini.

Bagaimana pun boleh kaitkan serba sedikit hal2 agama lain utk menguatkan hujah.

Thanks

ni pun nak mengukuhkan hujah la ni....jangan maree ek...

Kamu kata Sistem Kasta tidak wujud di dunia Islam, kalau begitu, kenapa hanya orang yg digelar Ulama sahaja boleh buat andaian mengenai agama kamu?

Ulama ni bukan berasal dr keturunan ulama. dia boleh jadi org biasa yg rajin menuntut ilmu, dan berkeupayaan dan diiktiraf untuk memberi pandangan berkenaan agama.

ulama dari segi bahasa bermaksud org yg sgt dalam ilmunya. xkan la nak bagi org yang xblajar ttg agama untuk memberi pandangan berkenaan agama kan? ini bukan kasta...sebab ulama juga manusia yang akan dihisab di akhirat seperti org lain. dia juga akan dihukum sekiranya dia melakukan kesalahan. bagi org Islam, Iman adalah paling penting. xkesah lah korg petani ke, penggali kubur ke, ulama ke....

[ Last edited by  semut_merah at 5-11-2006 10:57 AM ]

milkteddy85

to anyone who knoes hindu caste system well..is there a caste call "muthuraja servai" actually exist??

Sephiroth

There is ONLY Four Caste - Brahmin (Priest), Kyastria (Warrior), Merchant and Farmers. NOTHING ELSE IN HINDUSM.

All others are just ego talking.

sinchann

nak tanya betul ke  'surname'   pada sesebuah keluarga India boleh kita tahu dorang dari kasta mana? eg:  Shetty, Rai,Chopra?   Mungkin di Mlaysia  tak ramai tapi di negara India .  Bleh bagi penjelasan?

sazeryus

nak tanya sikit,,,harap jangan ada yg berkecil hati,,,

kenapa orang India marah dengan panggilan "Ke li nG"...
adakah itu juga dalam sistem kasta,betulkah pertaaan tersebut kasta yg paling rendah???

[ Last edited by  sazeryus at 30-4-2007 05:03 AM ]

Sephiroth

Originally posted by sazeryus at 30-4-2007 04:09 AM
nak tanya sikit,,,harap jangan ada yg berkecil hati,,,

kenapa orang India marah dengan panggilan "Ke li nG"...
adakah itu juga dalam sistem kasta,betulkah pertaaan tersebut kasta yg ...

Mereka tak perlu kecil hati ataupun marah kalau dipanggil spt itu pun. Kerana dulu (sezaman dgn Melaka), sudah ada satu empayar yg bernama Kalinga di India. Masa itu, orang2 India yg datang ke Tanah Melayu masa itu digelar "******" kerana mereka datang dr Empayar Kalinga. Dlm buku Sejarah Melayu sudahpun termaktub mengenai hal ini.

Gelaran itu sama spt orang gelarkan Muslims sbg orang Arab. Tak patuh kecil hati kan?

rurouni_khairul

Rasenya istilah '******' tuh takde dalam Hindu...nie kawan India I cakap dulu...die kate istilah nie mungkin muncul pada zaman Melaka dulu bila orang2 Melayu nampak orang India yang datang berdagang, mereka dengar bunyi 'kling, kling' sebab kat kaki diorang ade cam loceng yang bole berbunyi. So, istilah tuh melekat sampai ke hari nie untuk merujuk kepada kaum India. Tapi nie kawan India I punya teori laa...kalau die salah I pun salah ler...

Malangnya, kini intonasi '******' yang digunakan skrg lebih mirip kepada panggilan bersifat perkauman (racist) rather than sebagai panggilan merujuk kepada kaum India...

[ Last edited by  rurouni_khairul at 30-4-2007 11:54 AM ]