Is God comprise of One, Two Or Three. One God BUT TWO

sonny~~

Originally posted by Einard at 2004-7-4 07:02 PM:
Conclusion? Muslim = Christian? Christian = Muslim?

conclusion should be muslim = judaism jews = unitarian christian = ONE GOD

trinity christian = 3 gods in 1 god

twoness christian = 2 gods in 1 god

hence muslim = judaism jews = unitarian christioan is NOT = trinity or twoness  

peace

sonny~~

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2004-7-4 09:29 PM:



it depend. Most Christians believed One God BUT Two. Jews and Muslims believed One, when the Bible says TWO ,Let US make.... and the Koran says We.....


CONCLUSION: THE BIBLE IS RIGHT AFTER ALL

koran's WE means ONE GOD.  likewise bible's WE means ONE GOD.  likewise torah's WE means ONE GOD.  no such thing as 2 in 1 twoness god or 3 in 1 trinity god in koran or bible or torah

bible is right when it says theres ONE N ONLY ONE GOD.

ur assumptions bout bible is wrong when u said god is 2 in 1 twoness god.

likewise bro deb***sfe's assumptions bout bible is wrong when he says god is 3 in 1 trinity god  

peace

sonny~~

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2004-7-6 11:29 AM:



just wait what the Bible says : God says to another Yaweh.

then u know twoness or oness.

me  going slow by slow to educate our friends here. cannot be hurry lah...after they lost.

stick to the 10 commandments n u wouldnt get lost  

peace  

sonny~~

at the rate SONNY rebutts ur cut n paste assumptions shows ur 2 gods in 1 twoness god dont hold water

at the rate u fail to rebutt SONNYs rebuttal to ur cut n pastes, shows u dont have HARDproofs (cept assumptions) on the authenticity of ur 2 gods in 1 twoness god much less on 3 gods in 1 trinity god  

peace

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 6-7-2004 at 11:50 AM ]

Truth.8

we mean one???lol:lol

are WE still arguing on the Oness??

i believed ur got my point.

wait for my two Yaweh.

[ Last edited by Truth.8 on 6-7-2004 at 12:55 PM ]

sonny~~

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2004-7-6 12:54 PM:
we mean one???lol:lol

are WE still arguing on the Oness??

i believed ur got my point.

wait for my two Yaweh.

[ Last edited by Truth ...

yup for muslims, judaism jews n unitarian christians, when god says WE that means ONE god not 2 gods in 1 twoness god or 3 gods in 1 trinity god.  

read ur cut n paste.  when god says THE LORD IS ONE that means god is ONE N ONLY ONE god not 2 gods in 1 twoness god or 3 gods in 1 trinity god.  wot u do n wot trinity believers do r to make assumptions out of bible's teachings. thats wrong n its blasphemy  

peace

The Shema of Israel declared " Hear, 0
Israel : The Lord our God, the Lord is one " (Deut.6:4,
NIV}.

sonny~~

from TRUTH8

Surah Al-Hij
26. And verily WE have made man from ringing clay, which was in reality black smelling mud.27. And WE have made Jinns before from the smokeless fire.

Why WE? Who is WE? Two Divine Beings in Heaven.

methinks the english translation is wrong - SMELLIN should be SMELLY

2 divin beins in heaven indicate one divine bein is unseen while the other divin bein is with eyes, chin, penis etc who can cry, die, shit etc.  its not obscenity on SONNYs part but HARDfact if jesus were to be god  

peace

sonny~~

exactly wot does TRUTH8's cut n paste mean?  anyone?  

peace

The Shema of Israel declared " Hear, 0 Israel : The Lord our God, the Lord is one " (Deut.6:4, NIV}

Seraphim

THE TRINITY

              From Biblical Reason and from the Old Testament

I. FROM BIBLICAL REASON:

Introduction:

The biblical basis of the Trinity. Once we come to the conclusion that we can
really know if God exists and we can know about God, then we must decide upon
the Origin of our Knowledge of God.  Where do we find objective truth about
God. (Both Islam and Christianity would answer, in the written revelation of God.)

Pagan concepts of god are almost always based on the a priori assumption that
God cannot be personal and infinite at the same time.
Another false a priori assumption is that God must be either One or Many.

Special Revelation:

God has not been silent. In addition ot His witness of Himself in creation
He has spoken through His prophets in the Scriptures. Thus, through the
Scriptures we can know the facts of God as will as know God in a personal
way. Furthermore, the ONLY way to know God personally and to know about God
truly is through God's revelation of Himself given to us in Scriptures. Any
attempt to know God truly and to define God on any other basis than a careful
study of Scripture leads to heresy and futility. But through the study of
Scripture we CAN know about God and know God personally and intellectually.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not the result of human reasoning,
the product of man's mind, emotions, or experience. It has its origin in and
is a direct the result of a careful study of the Scriptures.

Presuppositions:

If we begin with the Trinity as a priori concept (and this is the only
Christian way to proceed), if the Trinity is true, what kinds of things
should we expect to find in the Bible?

Then, if we go to the Bible and we do find those very things which "must be"
in order for the Trinity "to be what it is," then we have all the proof we
need that the Trinity doctrine is true.

The only alternative is to begin with the a priori assumption that the
Trinity is not true. While we can understand why a non-Christian would want
to begin with this assumption, why would a professing Christian want to start
there as well?  To begin with unbelief is to lose the battle before it begins.

Only One God

The FIRST principle of the doctrine of the Trinity is that THERE IS ONLY ONE
TRUE ETERNAL, LIVING GOD, the maker and sustainer of all things.  The
doctrine of the Trinity is completely monotheistic and absolutely opposed to
any form of polytheism.

All so called "Trinitys" in the pagan world are based not on ONE God in Three
Persons but THREE GODS in Three persons, as we have seen in the examples
given by some of the Muslims members of this discussions.

If the Trinity is true what then should we expect to find in the Bible?

  1. We would expect to find in the Bible where God Himself says that He
     alone is the one true God and that there are no other gods, that any
     other gods of any other religions are false gods.

  2. We would expect to find the teachings of all the prophets, priests,
     kings, and apostles to teach that there is only one God and the gods of
     all other religions are false gods.

When we study the Bible what do we find?

Gods own testimony:
Duet 6:4 Deut 32:29; Isa. 43:10; 44:6; 44:8b; 45:5-6,18b, 21-22;46:9

The testimony of prophets, priests, kings, and apostles:
2Sam 7:22;1Kings 8:60; 1Chron 17:20; Isa. 37:16, 45:14; Jer 10:6,7;
1Cor 8:4-6; 1Tim 2:5

The testimony of the demons:
James 2:19

God is not totally comprehensible to man:

The doctrine of the Trinity begins with the assumption that the true God is
not totally comprehensible to man because God is not totally comprehensible
to man. Any god we could fully understand and explain would be no greater
then what we are. Such a god would not be worthy of our worship, awe or
praise. But although God is not FULLY comprehensible to man He is
comprehensible to man as much as He has revealed Himself to us. The
inescapable truth is that God will and must always be greater than our finite
capacity to understand fully or to explain exhaustively.

Our failure or understand or explain fully the Trinity or any other aspect of
God is not due to some defect in God or in His revelation but rather the
result of the fact that God is infinite and we are finite and our abilities
and intellects are limited.

If the Trinity were fully understandable, this in itself, would be an
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
indication that it is erroneous. Christians are not ashamed that the Trinity is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
difficult to comprehend, that we are left with unresolved problems, and
unanswered questions, because the Trinity is a mystery and we boast in it,
1Cor 1:31.

But to say the Trinity is not totally understandable or explainable does not
mean that it is irrational, illogical, or unknowable at all. We simply that
God is beyond man's ability to understand or explain exhaustively and beyond
mans understanding not contrary to it. We can have limited but true knowledge
of God. Jer 9:23,24; Dan 11:32; Jn 17:3; Gal 4:8,9; 1Jn 4:4-8; 5:18-21.

What would we expect to find in Scripture?

In order for the doctrine of the Trinity to be true we would expect to find:

  1. If the doctrine of the Trinity is true then we would expect to find the
     doctrine of the incomprehensibility of God is also true.

  2. and we would expect to find the doctrine of the incomprehensibility of
     God in the Scripture.

Job 1:21; 5:8,9; 9:10-12;11:7-11; 13:15; 42:1-6; Deut 29:29;
Ps 139:6; Ps 145:3; Isa 40:28; 55:6-11; Rom  11:33-36; Phil 4:7

Seraphim

II. FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT:

OT Evidence:

1. 9 different Hebrew words for "ONE"

  Of these 9 words the words "man", "woman" and "soul" those used to indicate
"one thing" are never applied to God or express the oneness of God because
God is not a "man", "woman", or "a soul".

  There is also a word which means "absolute oneness" Ps.68:6, and this word
is also never applied to God.

2. There are several words for one that are applied to God but these words
indicate a "compound oneness."

  Gen 1:5 The first day, a combination with two things "the evening and
morning, one day".

  Gen 2:24 Adam and Eve became "one flesh" but they were both still separate
individuals. They were two but one and one but two.

  Gen 3:22 "the man has become one of us, to know good and evil;" Adam and
Eve became one with God yet they did not lose their personhood or God his
divinity. There is nothing in the text to infer that God is speaking to the
angels. Thus the "us" in the text is God HIMSELF referring to HIMSELF in the
plural.

  Gen 11:6 "the people were one" they were "one and many" at the same time.

  Gen 34:16,22 The Shechemites wanted to become "one people" with the Jews.

  2Chron 30:12 God gave the people "one heart" but they were thousands of
  individuals.

  Ezra 2:64 The congregation, 42,360 persons, is called "one".

  Jer 32:39 Under the New Covenant God will give His people "one heart".

3. Deut 6:4, the main verse Jews use to teach the oneness of God uses the
same Hebrew word for one that the above examples use to show "compound
oneness."

  This is exactly want a Christian, Trinitarian, would expect to find. It is
the only way in Hebrew to indicate that God is a composite unity of Persons
and not just one person. There is no other Hebrew word to express this.

  The Hebrew word for absolute unity is never applied to God.
  Why have the Jews rejected the doctrine of the Trinity?

  David Cooper writes,
  Prior to the days of Moses Maimonides, the unity of God was expressed by a
word, as has been proven beyond a doubt, has as its primary meaning that of
a compound unity. Maimonides, who drafted the 13 articles of faith, in the
second one set forth the unity of God using the a word for God that expresses
absolute solidarity and unity...Hence from the days of maimonides on, an
interpretation different from the ancient one was placed upon this most
important passage.

4. In the OT both singular and plural nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and verbs
are used for God.  Many scholars have tried to say that the use of plurals
in the OT is simple the "plural of majesty." Which is the same argument that
Muslims use to answer why Allah speaks of himself as "We" in the Quran.

Unfortunately this is a fundamental error.  It is an attempt to take a modern
monarchical idiosyncrasy and read it back into the ancient text.  This was an
unknown idea in OT times.  Richard Davies pointed this out as long ago as
1891 (Doctrine of the Trinity p.227).
See  Gen 3:22 God speaking about Himself
     Gen 11:7-9 where there are both plural pronouns and verbs used of God
     Isa 6:3 Where Isaiah is called as a spokes man for God and God
     addresses himself in the plural.

5. Passages where more then one person is address as God:

  A. Gen 19:24 A special passage because more then one person is addressed
as God. One person is on earth and one is in heaven
One "Jehovah" is on earth and brings down brimstone and fire from the second
"Jehovah" who is in heaven. Luther said "Moses mentions Jehovah twice to show
that there is but one God, but that in this one God there are distinct
persons."

  This can not be a mention of the same "Jehovah" twice because,

  1. Moses is contrasting heaven and earth here.
  2. There are no passages like that in the Torah where the same name is
     mentioned twice in the same verse for emphasis. There is no evidence
     that Moses ever used that kind of literary style.

  B. Ps 45:6,7 Here God, who is sitting on the throne of heaven anoints God
with oil. David address the one true God and identifies the throne as the
throne of God so this can not be applied to David or Solomon or any other
earthly king.

  C. Isa 48:12-17 The speaker is identified as the "first and the last" a
title of God (Isa 44:6) and He is identified as doing things which only the
true God can do, 48:3-6,11,13,15.

  But this one who is identified as the true God is peaking and says that He,
along with the HS, are sent by God, v16.

  If the passage is interpreted in its natural and normal meaning there are
three persons in this passage who are call God!  The only way to deny this is
to claim Isaiah is speaking and not God.  But to say Isaiah is speaking at
the end of verse 16 you must say he is speaking the whole of the passage.

  D. Hosea 1:7 The "I" at the beginning of verse 7 is clearly Jehovah and
says that He will do something for you through yet another person called
"their God (Jehovah)". The "Jehovah their God" is clearly a different person
from the "Jehovah" who is speaking at the beginning of the verse.
Other OT evidence

6. Theophanies "God appeared" using a verb which means a physical
manifestation that could be seen and heard and not a vision or dream.

  Gen 12:7; 18:1    to Ab.
  Gen 26:2, 24      to Isaac
  Gen 35:1, 9, 48:3 to Jacob
  Ex. 3:16; 4:5     to Moses
  Ex. 6:3           to Ab., Isaac, Jacob
  Lev 9:4; 16:2     to Aaron
  Deut 31:15        to Moses and Joshua
  1Sam 3:21         to Samuel
  1Kings 3:5; 9:2; 11:9 to Solomon
  2Chron 3:1        to David
  2Chron 7:12       to Solomon

7. The Angel (Messenger) of the Lord
  Gen 16:7-14       Judges 2:1-5
  Gen 22:9-14       Judges 6:11-22
  Ex 3:2 (comp 4:5 Jehovah)   Judges 13:3 (a woman)
  Ex 23:20,21      
  Num 22:21-35

8. God identified as "the Father" in the OT

  Deut 32:6   (Moses' time)
  Isa 63:15; 64:8 (pre-exile)
  Mal2:10 (post exile)

9. God identified as "the Son" in the OT

  Ps. 2:12 "kiss the Son"
  a. The "Anointed One" in v2 is called the "Son in v12.
  b. Both Jewish and Christian scholars say this Psalm speaks of the Messiah.
  c. God's works are applied to "the Son" (comp. Ps. 24:1,2; Job 34:24;
     Jer 51:19-23
  d. The "Son" is begotten (comp 2Sam.7:14; Acts 13:33)

  Prov. 30:4 "His son's name"
  a.  Two separate persons are spoken of, "His name or His son's name"
  b.  This can not be a metaphor or impersonal force.
  c. This is not Hebrew parallelism.

  Isa. 9:6 "a son given"
  a. "Wonderful Counselor" comp Judges 13:17,18
  b. "born to us" comp Isa 7:14 - "God with us"
  c. "Mighty God" comp Isa 10:21
  d. "Eternal Father" better translation "Father of Eternal Life" - the one
     who give eternity to others.
  e. "Prince of Peace" the divine ruler. Ps 2:7-9

10. God the Spirit in the OT

  1Sam10:10, 19:20,23
  2Sam 23:1
  1Kings 22:24
  Neh 9:30
  Ps 51:11
  Isa 63:10,11
  Micah 2:7

11. Deity of the HS in the OT

  Job 33:4
  Ps 104:30
  Ps 139:7

12. Words of the HS called the words of God

  1Sam 10:10
  2Sam 23:2
  Zach 7:12; 12:10 (comp Ps 84:11 who gives grace?)

Seraphim

Some Common Objection to the Trinity:

1. The doctrine ot the Trinity cannot be true because it is impossible to
fully understand and comprehend it.

Christians admit that the Trinity is beyond our finite understanding
to understand completely.  That is because God is beyond our finite
understanding to understand completely.  We should expect this.  See
section one above. A God that we could fully comprehend and explain
would be no God at all.

2. Why should God be three instead of One?  How can God be One and Three
at the same time?

  There is simply nothing in this world which is one and three at the same
time, in the same sense in which God is One in Three. That does not mean it
is nonsense only that God is greater than His creation.

  Why should God be one person instead of three?  Who can explain WHY and HOW
about God?  God is what He says He is regardless of whether we can understand
it and explain it or not.

3. The Trinity is irrational. It is not in accord with human reason.
  This is humanism and rationalism of the 16th and 17 century. Many things in
religion, especially about God, can not be fully understood by reason.

4. The word "Trinity" does not appear in the early Church.  Thus, they did
not believe in the Trinity.

  This is an argument from silence. (JW's - the word "Jehovah" was not used
for God until the Middle Ages.)

5. Since the Nicene Creed does not state that the Holy Spirit is a person or
God, then it is clear that the early Church did not believe that the Holy
Spirit was a person or God.

  Again an argument from silence. The Niceane Creed after saying that they
believe in the Father and in the Son go on directly to say "We believe in the
HS."

  Remember the issue that prompted the Niceane Council was the issue of the
deity of JC not the HS. This argument is totally false and shows a lack of
understanding of history.

6. Many NT concepts of God and X have been traced back to pre-Christian pagan
religious and philosophies such as Gnosticiam ie. virgin birth, redeemer-
myth, dying and rising, logos, etc.

  No one has produced any such pre-Christian source materials. They only quote
19th and 20 century liberals.

7. The Christian church derived it doctrine of the Trinity from Greek philosophy.

  No original source material has been produced and relates together concepts
which have no relationship to one another.

8. The early Christians took Plato's concept of Demiurge and turned into their
concept of Christ.

  But Plato's Demiurge was a finite being not a god.

Enough for now. There is much much more if you really want it.





Happy reading

Seraphim

Originally posted by sonny~~ at 6-7-2004 02:02 PM:
exactly wot does TRUTH8's cut n paste mean?  anyone?  

peace

The Shema of Israel declared " Hear, 0 Israel : The Lord our God, the Lord is one " (Deut.6:4, N ...

OK sonny boy...

You do realized that Hebrew is a little different when translated to English

1. 9 different Hebrew words for "ONE"

  Of these 9 words the words "man", "woman" and "soul" those used to indicate
"one thing" are never applied to God or express the oneness of God because
God is not a "man", "woman", or "a soul".

  There is also a word which means "absolute oneness" Ps.68:6, and this word
is also never applied to God.

2. There are several words for one that are applied to God but these words
indicate a "compound oneness."

  Gen 1:5 The first day, a combination with two things "the evening and
morning, one day".

  Gen 2:24 Adam and Eve became "one flesh" but they were both still separate
individuals. They were two but one and one but two.

  Gen 3:22 "the man has become one of us, to know good and evil;" Adam and
Eve became one with God yet they did not lose their personhood or God his
divinity. There is nothing in the text to infer that God is speaking to the
angels. Thus the "us" in the text is God HIMSELF referring to HIMSELF in the
plural.

  Gen 11:6 "the people were one" they were "one and many" at the same time.

  Gen 34:16,22 The Shechemites wanted to become "one people" with the Jews.

  2Chron 30:12 God gave the people "one heart" but they were thousands of
  individuals.

  Ezra 2:64 The congregation, 42,360 persons, is called "one".

  Jer 32:39 Under the New Covenant God will give His people "one heart".

3. Deut 6:4, the main verse Jews use to teach the oneness of God uses the
same Hebrew word for one that the above examples use to show "compound
oneness."

Truth.8

Page 15  



About 300 years later, when God appeared to Moses in
a burning bush. He said, "I AM WHO I AM. ..... and I
AM has sent Me to you " (Ex.3:14, NIV).

From these words, we can see that God is hinting there
were TWO I AMs - one I AM who was sent as a Divine
Angel and the other I AM who sent Him.  A similar
allusion is found in the book of Zechariah : the Lord is the
One who speaks but He says another Lord of Hosts has
sent Him (Zech 2:8-9). In Zech.3:2, Yahweh speaks directly
to Satan but tells him Yahweh - another Yahweh - has
rebuked him. Verse 6 identities this one Yahweh as the
Angel (Messenger). What other conclusion could there be
but there were Two Yahwehs or Two Jehovahs !
In Ps.110:1, David under God's inspiration wrote :

" The LORD {Yahweh') says to My Lord {Adonai, i.e.
Master), ' Sit at My Right Hand until I make your enemies
a footstool for Your feel'" {NIV).

David being a prophet understood the Lord - Adonai -
was to  be the Messianic Ruler. Yahweh and Adonai are
TWO PERSONS, revealing not a triune-God but a Two-
Member GOD FAMILY.

Speaking of the Messianic King in Ps.45:7, the
psalmist writes : " You love righteousness and hate
wickedness. Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set You
above Your companions. ....." (NIV).

How then can there be only one Person called God
when it says God your God, did God anoint Himself and
sent Himself as the Messiah ?
The answer is simple and profound ; the Messiah is
God and He has a superior called God '


cont'd/...

[ Last edited by Truth.8 on 6-7-2004 at 06:30 PM ]

sonny~~

Originally posted by Seraphim at 2004-7-6 03:37 PM:
THE TRINITY

              From Biblical Reason and from the Old Testament

I. FROM BIBLICAL REASON:

Introduction:

The biblical basis of the Trinity. Once we come to the conclusion that w ...

it dont say THE LORD THY GOD is 3 gods in 1 trinity god or 2 gods in 1 twoness god other than THY LORD IS ONE.  right?  

peace

sonny~~

Originally posted by Seraphim at 2004-7-6 03:38 PM:
II. FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT:

OT Evidence:

1. 9 different Hebrew words for "ONE"

  Of these 9 words the words "man", "woman" and "soul" those used to  ...

none of ur cut n paste verses say MY SON (JESUS) IS GOD.  right?  so how come one comes to coclusion jesus is god?  

peace

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 7-7-2004 at 11:44 AM ]

sonny~~

Originally posted by Seraphim at 2004-7-6 03:38 PM:
Some Common Objection to the Trinity:

1. The doctrine ot the Trinity cannot be true because it is impossible to
fully understand and comprehend it.

Christians admit that the Trinity is beyon ...

god wants us to believe in him.  right?  he gives us brain to think.  right?  he dont wanna us follow him blindly.  right?  hence wots so difficult to believe god is ONE N ONLY ONE when he said so?  

peace

sonny~~

Originally posted by Seraphim at 2004-7-6 03:48 PM:


OK sonny boy...

You do realized that Hebrew is a little different when translated to English

1. 9 different Hebrew words for "ONE"

  Of these 9 words the words "man&qu ...

trinity followers say god is trinity while TRUTH8 says god is twoness n unitarian followers say god THY LORD IS ONE.  the bible says GOD IS ONE.  it dont say god is three in 1 or 2 in 1.  it dont even say GOD IS COMPOUND ONESS.  right?  

peace   

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 7-7-2004 at 11:50 AM ]

sonny~~

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2004-7-6 06:26 PM:
Page 15  



About 300 years later, when God appeared to Moses in
a burning bush. He said, "I AM WHO I AM. ..... and I
AM has sent Me to you " (Ex.3:14, N ...

From these words, we can see that God is hinting there
were TWO I AMs - one I AM who was sent as a Divine
Angel and the other I AM who sent Him

thats assumption talk.  god dont give hints, god teaches.  right?  

n god sent jesus.  the word SENT is HARDproof jesus is no god.  he like any other prophets, holy men r bein sent down to earth by god to teach man to do good.  simple.  god even sent jesus like any other prophets, holy men thru women's wombs.

n jesus can sit any side of god as hes directed.  but that dont make him god.  unless n until jesus tells us outright hes god no way u can make assumptions otherwise  

peace  

[ Last edited by sonny~~ on 7-7-2004 at 11:59 AM ]

Truth.8

All ur fact proof u failed because u did not even produced much evidence accordingly to the Bible verses.

The verdict: U FAILED TO PROOF ONESS.

p/s: will  come with more proof on Twoness accordingly to Bible verses not my own view or opinion but Bible verses.

what u got to say about this:

" The LORD {Yahweh') says to My Lord {Adonai, i.e.
Master), ' Sit at My Right Hand until I make your enemies
a footstool for Your feel'" {NIV).

[ Last edited by Truth.8 on 7-7-2004 at 01:01 PM ]

Seraphim

Sonny boy..when i mentioned that one is not the "one" tha you think of..You lost in that ...

And you moved on trying to ask for proof that Jesus is god???

Sonny ...stop being a sore loser...