IMPERFECT GOD/BRAHMAN/ALLAH/JEHOVA

Originally posted by barney50 at 18-7-2006 11:35 AM

It sounds silly as I too can ask you the same question but in a different format. But I'll still answer your question.

I believe there is only one CREATOR. No, I do not believe so as approach can be in many ways. No one man is right as far as religion is concern. Nations where there were no divine beings adopted other faiths as their. Like Malays who once prayed to spiritts of the jungle adopted Hinduism as their relgion and when Islam came they adopted Islam. No I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet of GOD but a reformer of his ancesstors religion. But you cannot assess me by my approach and it is for GOd to know who is right and who is wrong.

I base what I say on what has been revealed by God.


The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account - 003.019

Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe. - 006.125

We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." - 046.015


(Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam. - 43.069

:pray: http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInfor ... nlyTrueReligion.htm

Originally posted by barney50

You抮e making a decision there yourself. Are you not a man?
The decision I make is good for mankind whereas yours brings disunity and hatred.

God抯 law upon apostacy does not bring disunity and hatred. It is only a penalty towards the apostate for turning his back on his Creator

Originally posted by barney50

Come on KENNKID, Is it not what you are fighting for here? You want to make sure you win and to do so you say mine is dirt to you. So, it is writen all over your face and your response in this thread.

No, I抦 not fighting for personal victory. I抦 fighting to put  your falsehood  where it belongs

Originally posted by barney50

We follow a set of rituals given to us some 5,000 years ago through the sacret writings called the VEDAS.

One minute you say that you follow a set of rituals [written or invented by humans, not a revelation]厖..and the next minute >>>

Originally posted by barney50

Muslims are relying on translation of their kitab by mullas and imams and waiting for the call for prayers. Are'nt these following others instructins.

You contradict your own statement by accusing Muslims of following others instructions

[quote]Originally posted by barney50

Please ask those who had a close view of these pillars than tell me otherwise. As for the significance it is believed that when he [Abraham] left Mina and was brought down to (the defile called) al-Aqaba, the Devil appeared to him at Stone-Heap of the Defile. Gabriel said to him: 揚elt him!

kid

Yup barney, kennkid was right for what he said all in Islam perspective.

For instance you can't put the same way you worship your godhead in your mind and action being the same way we Muslim conduct our worship in our mind and action.

There just a gap of differences by light years distant... you see...

You worship your godhead with the assistance of carved statue(s) or an object so that it helps you 'knowing' the existence of your god, without that, you would felt emptiness or can't just achieved that level... or felt something is not right...  but in our perspective it just the opposite, object is an object and nothing more, we dont need assistance, in fact we ever wont need that.

But you probably have set your mind for that 'assistance'... thus its hard for you to understand why we dont need any assistance along the way of communicating with God.

While we Muslim sees an object as an object and nothing more... not related (in fact prohibited) or set the way to how we find and communicating with God.  

In fact it just like the straight highway.. straight path, right through the point, eliminating all the bumps and curves.

Actually we are prohibited to place an object or image whether real or imaginary and whatever things that distract our mind.. or make us relate, or assist while communicating with God.

Because the way to God are wide and open!

But some people put the obstacle along the way because they dont believe without that 'tools' they can't achieve direct communication with God... or not allowed to.

You surely agree that God is all Most Powerful, then why God need to put any 'assistance' if He is all Most Powerful? Does He really need those assistance, do you think so?

In Islam, God is close to us, closer than we thought, and why the need to go distant then turn around and grabbing 'assistance' along the way, while God is closer than we thought?

You probably dont agree because you believe God sit somewhere else in some place apart by distance, am I correct?

And for further note, that's one of the reason Islam re-introduced by prophet Muhammad to bring back the true path of the true Creator back to its real way, after human bend it again and again to fit their false idea how God should be, according to their limited knowledge and imagination.

For all that matter, Muslim believe that God is the Most Powerful being, that God doesn't need us to seek 'assistance' or worst, He need an 'assistance' in our communication (with Him). God is too powerful to relate Him with such weakness.

God knows best.

barney50

1. I base what I say on what has been revealed by God.

Copy the Code

So do I.

Verily, this whole world in Brahman. Tranquil, let one worship it as that from which he came forth, as that into which he will be dissolved, as that in which he breathes. [Chandogya 3.14.1]

Fire is His head; His eyes, the moon and sun; the regions of space, His ears; His voice, the revealed Vedas; Wind, His breath; His heart, the whole world. Out of His feet, the earth. Truly He is the Inner Soul of all. [Mundaka 2.2.4]

As all the spokes are held together in the hub of a wheel, just so in this Soul all things, all gods, all worlds, all breathing things, all selves are held together. [Brihadaranyaka 2.5.15]

'He (Brahman) is the swan (sun), dwelling in the bright heaven; he is the Vasu (air), dwelling in the sky; he is the sacrificer (fire), dwelling on the hearth; he is the guest (Soma), dwelling in the sacrificial jar; he dwells in men, in gods (vara), in the sacrifice (rita), in heaven; he is born in the water, on earth, in the sacrifice (rita), on the mountains; he is the True and the Great.'          [ Katha Upanishad]

For he is the Breath shining forth in all beings, and he who understands this becomes truly wise, not a talker only. He revels in the Self, he delights in the Self, and having performed his works (truthfulness, penance, meditation, &c.) he rests, firmly established in Brahman, the best of those who know Brahman.[ Mundaka Upanishad]

1. God抯 law upon apostacy does not bring disunity and hatred. It is only a penalty towards the apostate for turning his back on his Creator

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That is the wrong perception of Muslims. Apostacy from a path does not mean one denies GOD. One may wish to chose a path which becomes more condusive to him. But by declaring such a person as traitor and decree to kill him is barbaric not even accepted by the Creator.

1. No, I抦 not fighting for personal victory. I抦 fighting to put  falsehood where it belongs

Copy the Code

So says who? Your Quran? If I too follow the same notion as yours it would be an uncompromised situation which would only bring clash between to variations. Is that what GOD wants, clash between mankind because one does not agree with the other on which path is the right path? Was that the plan of GOD that HE created living creatures on this planet to clash among each other? You must be joking....

1. One minute you say that you follow a set of rituals [written or invented by humans, not a revelation]厖..and the next minute >>>

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Who wrote yours? GOD? Did GOD come down and wrote the quran and hadith for the Muslims? Is that what you mean when you said ours was written by man? All scriptures were written by man what was revealed by GOD. Please remember that.

[code] You contradict your own statement by accusing Muslims of following others instructions

barney50

1. You抮e just repeating what I said, in fact  being more specific (after  reading it from somewhere of course). Good.

Copy the Code

No, read carefully what you have written and what I posted.

1. We have only names, we don抰 carve out the names into images.  The names describe God抯 Attributes. His specific name is Allah.

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The names we have describes the glory and beauty of GOD. We adorne the carved images according to the described name. We do it in action to show our love for HIM but what do you do to show your love for HIM? When can say you love my mother very much but how do you show that love? Do you wash her feet, buy for her things that she loves, attend to her needs? In Hinduism we show our love for the creator who had provided us all the comfort by such rituals. Does that heart you in any way? You religion had not thought you to do so but if it had surely you would do the same.

1. Stop making up stories to defy islam just because you are cornered and don抰 know what else to say

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I do not make up stories but the truth. The truth of what is happening to Muslims all over the world otherwise why all these hatred and dispute. You cannot corner me in any way because I too like you have faith in my own religion. So, stop crying and face the reality.

[code] Again, for wont of what to say

barney50

1. responded by kid:You surely agree that God is all Most Powerful, then why God need to put any 'assistance' if He is all Most Powerful? Does He really need those assistance, do you think so?

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Wel, kid you have contradicted your own statement. If HE is all powerful and can do and wish what HE wants mankind to do than why does HE need messanger like Mohammed? HE could have just sais be and all mankind would belike what HE expect. So, looks like Allah is not so powerful as you imagined un!?..........

1. In Islam, God is close to us, closer than we thought, and why the need to go distant then turn around and grabbing 'assistance' along the way, while God is closer than we thought?

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It has been told to us some four thousand years ago so no need to preach the same. It is Hindusim that says GOD is within us while Islam says in HIS kingdoim in hevan,  like the Jews and Christians. Get the meaning?

1. You probably dont agree because you believe God sit somewhere else in some place apart by distance, am I correct?

Copy the Code

Wrong preaching. We do not look for GOD in the sky or some other world. It is Muslims who dream of Paradise somewhere out there....Read your hadith and understand it well before you start your preaching to me.

1. And for further note, that's one of the reason Islam re-introduced by prophet Muhammad to bring back the true path of the true Creator back to its real way, after human bend it again and again to fit their false idea how God should be, according to their limited knowledge and imagination.

Copy the Code

What true path? Hating others who do not follow yours is true path? Wishing death to those who leave your path? Killing innocent bystanders your true path? What true path are you tell me kid?

1. For all that matter, Muslim believe that God is the Most Powerful being, that God doesn't need us to seek 'assistance' or worst, He need an 'assistance' in our communication (with Him). God is too powerful to relate Him with such weakness.

Copy the Code

But it doesseem to be sot. Allah seem to be weak and needed Mohammed to help HIM establish what HE desired. Needed hadith to interprete the HIS book the quran. So HE made the quran so complicated that Muslim needed an interpretation and so hadith was born.  Does it make sense? To me it does no.........

1. God knows best.

Copy the Code

No, HE does not otherwise why have all these syraiah laws to compel its followers.

Originally posted by barney50 at 19-7-2006 10:25 AM

Verily, this whole world in Brahman. Tranquil, let one worship it as that from which he came forth, as that into which he will be dissolved, as that in which he breathes. [Chandogya 3.14.1]

Fire is His head; His eyes, the moon and sun; the regions of space, His ears; His voice, the revealed Vedas; Wind, His breath; His heart, the whole world. Out of His feet, the earth. Truly He is the Inner Soul of all. [Mundaka 2.2.4]

As all the spokes are held together in the hub of a wheel, just so in this Soul all things, all gods, all worlds, all breathing things, all selves are held together. [Brihadaranyaka 2.5.15]

'He (Brahman) is the swan (sun), dwelling in the bright heaven; he is the Vasu (air), dwelling in the sky; he is the sacrificer (fire), dwelling on the hearth; he is the guest (Soma), dwelling in the sacrificial jar; he dwells in men, in gods (vara), in the sacrifice (rita), in heaven; he is born in the water, on earth, in the sacrifice (rita), on the mountains; he is the True and the Great.'          [ Katha Upanishad]

For he is the Breath shining forth in all beings, and he who understands this becomes truly wise, not a talker only. He revels in the Self, he delights in the Self, and having performed his works (truthfulness, penance, meditation, &c.) he rests, firmly established in Brahman, the best of those who know Brahman.[ Mundaka Upanishad]

The Glorious Qur抋n mentions in Surah Rad, chapter 13 verse 38 揊or each period is a book (revealed).

kid

Barney, apparently you like someone who insist other people in the same shoes of yours... if you carved stone for your worship, but not for Muslim, it just the opposite... there never the same.

Black stone remain a stone, nor the same like your carved stone god.

It situated near kaabah, because it has been there for thousand years... it wasn't placed there to be worshipped like you place carved stone in your temple to pray.

It is not an obligation nor part of the Hajj, not the same like it is a essential part of your worship ritual.

It has no power nor holy, not the same like you respect your holy carved stone god.

It is for remembrance and significance of the past history of Islam, not the same significance of you worshiping daily ritual.

So all Muslim agree that black stone remain a stone, but you don't of course

No.. that wasn't my imagination... but it is reality.

So you see... we are different.

barney50

kid,

You have not responded to my earlier reply so I'll wait for it before I reply to this.

kid

Well Barney...I have the same question with kennkid ... oiled... anointed?

Where? show us...

kid

Originally posted by barney50 at 19-7-2006 12:03 PM
kid,

You have not responded to my earlier reply so I'll wait for it before I reply to this.

Oh allright..

When I composed my new comment in the same time you replied to my old posting... so I just saw your reply.

I'll reply later... maybe after you reply kennkid's posting.. for the sake of continuos discussion between you and kennkid.

barney50

1. All the revelations that came before Qur抋n were only sent for their own people and were to be followed only for a particular time period.
   
2. 
   
3. The fact that the followers of the Vedas still believe in worshipping God by the outdated & primitive, paganistic worshipping of thousands of idols show that it has passed its time although it claims to be 憈imeless抂/code]
   
4. 
   
5. Yeh! That is true and it would be true in the nature of Arabs. Mohammed had to do something to change the mindset fo the Meccans and he was brave to reform his anccestors relgion. What has that got to do with Hinduism. Hinduism is a way of life and not a relgion. GOD send down revealatin to the Arayas [learned ones/intelleligent beings] or Rishis on how mankind should conduct his life on earth. These practice had gove through many evolutions and is still here in this century. I believe it will be here till end of time.
   
6. 
   
7. [code] There is no such penalty mentioned in the Qur抋n. And at the same time you have no authority to speak on behalf of The Creator, in accordance to your own minute human knowledge..

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Me no authority? What makes you the authority? Just because you are Muslim? No one owns GOD my friend...please remember that in mind. You say no such penality, why is it your own interpretation? Why not ask those who have decreed such call to kill apostates? Sorry to say this but being a Muslim you are a good liar.

[ode] Of course not. Funny question from someone who believes in Gods who clash.[/code]

Read carefully what I wrote "Was that the plan of GOD that HE created living creatures on this planet to clash among each other? You must be joking...." Not GOD who clashes. See how you can make a mistake if you become too emotional in a very healthy discussion...

[code] There抯 a difference between penning down what is heard that is recited by a prophet as and when he receives his revelation AND  composing & inventing or imagining your own story and putting it into writing yourself & claiming it as something which is 慸ivinely intuitioned

barney50

[responded by KENNKID: Pls show me where it says that the black stone is  oiled or  anointed as you alleged

kid

Yea... it could be true could be not... since it is Wikipedia, where anyone can write since it is open source, open to public to write and revise

But if you look at 'black stone' section on Wikipedia clearly stated there Muslim consider black stone as just a stone, this is contradict the above.. so you see

So up to yo to believe Wikipedia, however of course this can't regard as true source, since the site doesn't belong to Muslim either....

barney50

kid,

If the source is an open source and any body could edit or change than why have the Muslims not done so. Many a source on Hinduism and its practices were quoted by forumers from wikipedia in this forum and we Hindus did not complain or deny any of such. But since you find this strange practice of Muslims anoiting the balck stone, you claim it is an unreliable source. How clever of you. My dear friend if such practice did not take place this information would not have surfaced. What would you know about Arab culture and their religius obligation? You are not an Arab Muslim so you do not know much about Islam because you have been thought what you need to believe by your ustza or ullamas who are not Arabs but Malay Muslims who do not know much about Arab culture and practice.

I'm not condemning or ridiculing your relgion but merely pointing out that there are certain secrets in all relgions. This could be due to misinterpretation or keeping the secret to themself as the relgion originated from them. Islam from the Arabs and Christinity from the Jews. The Malays, Indians and even Chinese are only converts of Islam. It is the same with Chinese and Indians who are only converts of Christianity. These people are not the original people of their respective religion and so there is bound to be such secrets kept away from converts for fear that these new converts would not have any faith if these secrets are out in the open. Before they could hide such secrets before but not any more in the world of IT. There are more to it than you know about your relgion my friend. Please understand that.

kid

Originally posted by barney50 at 20-7-2006 04:18 PM
kid,

If the source is an open source and any body could edit or change than why have the Muslims not done so. Many a source on Hinduism and its practices were quoted by forumers from wikipedia i ...

Before you type those long critics of me, you should read again what I said in just the first line.

I said "it could be true it could be not..." did I deny that? Tell me Barney...

Maybe I'm not that kind of person who you thought Barney... who just justified everything to win debate...
My religion do not teach me that, but instead telling the truth although everyone condemn or not supporting.

The truth of Islamic teaching remain the clear and perfect, more important for us then just winning the debate...

I wont justified any of wrong doing by Muslim if exist, what I can do is looking at the reasoning and logic behind it, and also will tell you whatever false perspective you might think toward Islam and Muslim. If they are wrong then ok, they are wrong, but if you are wrong I also tell you that.

And indeed Wikipedia is not a reliable source when we are talking about religion be Islam, Christian, Hindu etc, nobody can refute this. ...since it is open source for public, it kind of newspaper or reporter, but I do not deny that it might contain half of the truth, so we can use it as source but also we can't, it depends.

Back to anointed thing, in Islam the teaching remain clear, the blackstone is still a stone (if you keen for Wikipedia you can look at it too), but I believe 'anointed' here was not the same as you anointed your carved stone God... why?

As Muslim knew clearly that worship other than God is a major sin, even just thinking about that is prohibited, so I do not believe that 'anointed' will be the same as your definition of 'anointed' (some kind of worship ritual)... if... if.. if they did, then it was clear a sin. Period.

Perhaps no Muslim bother to explain those 'anointed' word in Wikipedia, beacuse it is not worth, if someone really want to learn Islam, do they go to Wikipedia?

Anyhow Wikipedia is good and independent in my opinion, I can say almost all they said about Islam is correct according to Islamnic perpective, if some take the meaning in the wrong way then it was out of our control.. do you agree?

So Barney... let the discussion going and tell me what do you think.

[ Last edited by  kid at 21-7-2006 09:41 AM ]

barney50

kid,

I did not mean to criticize you but merely pointing out the facts. I'm sure you would have seen anti-Hindu postings of anti_aktivis. Talking about it, I wonder what happend to him? He has been missing for too long. That guy is ok but a bit too obstinate.  Anyway I'm sorry if I have step out of the boder. Yes, I understand your explanation but the information has been there for ages and no Muslim has refuted the claim. So, as a Hindu I would think that Muslims do pay reverance to the black stone as it must be part of their relgious practice. If the said black stone was of no significat to Islam surely Mohammed should have placed it somewhere out side the Kaaba but instead he had placed it in such a manner attached to the kaaba and making Muslims to go around the kaaba seven times has something to do with the said black stone. Morever it has become a practice for Muslim pilgrims to touch and kiss makes it more authentic that the black stone is of importance to Muslims. I make my point from observing these facts and not just blindly accuse Muslims of idol worship too. Get my point?

kid

Barney...

Thank you for your understanding.

By the way let me get the fact straight.

- It wasn't prophet Muhammad who found the black stone, it was found by propeht Abraham (Ibrahim) and his son Ishmael (Ismail) when they were searching for stones with which to build the Kaaba, prophet Muhammad then just put it in its original place again.

- Kissing black stone is not part of the hajj, and if somehow the stone is not there, the hajj is still valid, InsyaAllah.

- While it is true some believe that kissing the stone can erase their sin, however this none of Islamic teaching

- Some believe that the stone was a meteorite, some believe that it was the stone from heaven, only God knows, nobody sure about it.

I understand what you are trying to said to me about the importance of blackstone for Muslim, in my opinion yes it is important to Muslim, it had historic sentimental value us.. but no, it has no importance in our ibadah (amal) or worship to God.

Let me tell a bit personal feeling of me,

You can imagine that stone has stood there for thousand years since prophet Abraham, it was his own hand and his son Ismail's who originally put the stone there, and also prophet Muhammad own hand put it again at its place, how great and I think how more original it could be.

I too would kiss the stone in remembrance of my glorious prophets, the glorious history of my religion ... it remind me how God show us that Islam stood in this earth since the beginning of men, for so long and undisturbed until this very days.

I would kiss the stone if I have chance, definitely a chance of a life time.

But dont get me wrong, the importance as I said is for the Muslim historical value, but no importance whatsoever for our ibadah/amal, We Muslim don't get benefit from it, nor it can harm us, nor our amal decrease or increase by kissing the stone.

However I agree that it has significance and important marking point of historical progress of Islam in human history.

I remember it just the same thing when I got a sentimental time where I kissed my wife's love letter once before (shame)... made me remember how my love ventures with her, long sweet story of my life... I'm happy .. but do you think I consider kissing my wife's letter somehow importance in my marriage relationship?

You know the answer..

Now I forget where I put that letter, I have the urge to find that letter again... ok see you,
a bit joke to calm the weather

[ Last edited by  kid at 21-7-2006 11:19 AM ]

barney50

1. Responded by kid:It wasn't prophet Muhammad who found the black stone, it was found by propeht Abraham (Ibrahim) and his son Ishmael (Ismail) when they were searching for stones with which to build the Kaaba, prophet Muhammad then just put it in its original place again.

Copy the Code

There is no indication as to where this stone originated, but since it pre-dates the revelation of the Holy Qur'an and Muhammad's prophethood, and even kissed, it must stem from the time of Abraham since the Hajj traditions are traceable to the patriarch of monotheism. It is remarkable, however, that even though the temple contained 360 idols worshipped before Muhammad's Prophethood, the black stone was never kissed or made an idol of worship. In fact, the Ka'ba was never worshipped by the idolaters prior to Muhammad's Prophethood. The building contained idols of worship but the building itself was never an object of worship.

1. Kissing black stone is not part of the hajj, and if somehow the stone is not there, the hajj is still valid, InsyaAllah.

Copy the Code

I told you what has been explained. Because it explains in detail what they do every two years when they clean the Kaaba and how they clean it. That is where it explains the anointing the black stone. The single most important reason for kissing the stone is that  Muhammad did so. And no one questioned him but just follow what their he did. No one knows what the he thought the very moment he kissed the black stone. Can any Muslim tell what he  was thinking at the moment he kissed the black stone. Surely not because no one knows what lies in another's heart. Now that is the secret and it died with Mohammed.

1. I understand what you are trying to said to me about the importance of blackstone for Muslim, in my opinion yes it is important to Muslim, it had historic sentimental value us.. but no, it has no importance in our ibadah (amal) or worship to God.

Copy the Code

You may say that it has no importance in your ibadah but it was important to your prophet and that is why he kissed it. Otherwise he would have palced the stone in some other area and put there in a glass case like placing an artifect in a muzium for visitors to only see it. But instead he placed it in a corner attached to the kaaba itself which shows it has something to do with the whole prossess of haj and going around it at the same time kissing it.

1. I too would kiss the stone in remembrance of my glorious prophets, the glorious history of my religion ... it remind me how God show us that Islam stood in this earth since the beginning of men, for so long and undisturbed until this very days.

Copy the Code

Now that glorifying is idol worship is short. As Islam claims ther should be no idol worship and only Allah is the greatest but indirectly knowing or unknowing Muslims idol worship. Sorry but that is the truth.

1. But dont get me wrong, the importance as I said is for the Muslim historical value, but no importance whatsoever for our ibadah/amal, We Muslim don't get benefit from it, nor it can harm us, nor our amal decrease or increase by kissing the stone.

Copy the Code

Yeh! I know what you feel and a billion three hundred Muslims in the world think and say. But that is not so when studying their action concerning the black stone when they go to perform the haj. It is obvious and we do not condemn it except to make it clear to Muslims that they can condemn Hindus of our action but their action is no difference from ours.

1. I remember it just the same thing when I got a sentimental time where I kissed my wife's love letter once before (shame)... made me remember how my love ventures with her, long sweet story of my life... I'm happy .. but do you think I consider kissing my wife's letter somehow importance in my marriage relationship?

Copy the Code

That is love which comes from deep within us. This love is no ordinary love and that is the kind of love one has to show to GOD too and it is no shame if Muslims show their love for Allah by kissing the balck stone because in the heart they are not showing their love to the stone but to Allah. Why, because it is belived that it droped from havean which means GOD send it down so that his people would remember him all the time.

kid

OK, your new comment get us heading to a new direction

...even though the temple contained 360 idols worshipped before Muhammad's Prophethood, the black stone was never kissed or made an idol of worship...

Never made an idols? never kissed? How do you know? no fact no reasoning? Ok if never then what is the relevance fo the discussion anyway?

...The single most important reason for kissing the stone is that  Muhammad did so..

Probably Barney... but some says for another reason too, and some no importance of it.

Since we were talking about Hajj, I clearly mentioned no importance of it for Hajj.

Can any Muslim tell what he  was thinking at the moment he kissed the black stone

Maybe you started to think that prophet Muhammad turn idolater? Surely no Barney.

BTW, If no comment from him, means nothing important for 'umat' for sure, nothing really matter in religious term, if that was obligatory, surely he already told to obeyed... but he didn't say anything, so should we invent stories?

Perhaps there is a God's secret about it, but that was not important for us to know and remain the secret of God, and again we can't just invent a story.

.. And no one questioned him but just follow what their he did

See the reason above, in Islam we don't invent something new in religious matter, unlike other religion who made invention of religious matter to suit themselves.

You may say that it has no importance in your ibadah but it was important to your prophet and that is why he kissed it.

If it is important in religious matter, prophet Muhammad would have told us.

And why we be so naive when kissing something must into worshiping? That's not Islam.

Otherwise he would have palced the stone in some other area and put there in a glass case like placing an artifect in a muzium for visitors to only see it. But instead he placed it in a corner attached to the kaaba itself which shows it has something to do with the whole prossess of haj and going around it at the same time kissing it.

Didn't you read that prophet Muhammad put it in its original place again, in the corner as prophet Abraham put there previously.


I said previously:

I too would kiss the stone in remembrance of my glorious prophets, the glorious history of my religion ... it remind me how God show us that Islam stood in this earth since the beginning of men, for so long and undisturbed until this very days.

You said:

Now that glorifying is idol worship is short. As Islam claims ther should be no idol worship and only Allah is the greatest but indirectly knowing or unknowing Muslims idol worship. Sorry but that is the truth.

Now get the fact straight please, I clearly said in "rememberance of 'my glorious prophets'... 'glorious history of my religion'" and none glorifying an idol (stone).

Yeh! I know what you feel and a billion three hundred Muslims in the world think and say. But that is not so when studying their action concerning the black stone when they go to perform the haj. It is obvious and we do not condemn it except to make it clear to Muslims that they can condemn Hindus of our action but their action is no difference from ours.

Barney, if you really think that we worship black stone, then nevermind, I'm gonna leave you with that thought.

However my message delivered to you clearly, Islam is no idolatry.

That is love which comes from deep within us. This love is no ordinary love and that is the kind of love one has to show to GOD too and it is no shame if Muslims show their love for Allah by kissing the balck stone because in the heart they are not showing their love to the stone but to Allah. Why, because it is belived that it droped from havean which means GOD send it down so that his people would remember him all the time.

No Barney... eventhough it fell from heaven as you assume or whatever it came rom, we ony worship Allah, never an idols nor other thing.

However we could love the blackstone, surely, but that's it. No more than that. True love and worship only for Allah.  

So you see the follower of idolatry like you a Hiduism might think that strict monotheism religion such as Islam has 'something idolatry to effect' while conducting our religious activities which might seem in your eyes as the same spirit of your action, perhaps because you saw it from different perspective than us, based on your religious logic and reasoning, but when it comes to Islamic perspective, whatever we do should be free from idolatry thing, not just action, but also intention. I think that should clear enough

Nice discussion anyway, keep going.