What Soora 2:23 really says to SFE Talk?

Fuzzman

What 2:23 says :-
YUSUFALI: And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
PICKTHAL: And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
SHAKIR: And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Fuzzman's reply to SFE/Debmey:-
Clear and simple. 2:23 says nothing about judges or a competition like you like it make it out to be. You see if you had read through what says the 2:23, you would definately see that 2:23 has given you the disbeliever the benefit of the doubt. Not only are you allowed to create the likeness of the embodiment of Quran but are allowed to call upon your witnesses that would arise from your own faith to compare the strength of your creation against that of Allah's revelation. Your witnesses as 2:23 had mentioned as "besides Allah", that will arrive in the form of your brethren of the same faith who are professed as scholars in the field of religious studies must with a "open mind" and in an atmosphere of truth make decision as to whether you have succeeded in producing a chapter of verses that will readily overshadow the Quran. Fuzzman's very sure that even Christian scholars would shy away from your effort, seeing that you do not "have what it takes" to pursue this  adventure. If there was any possibility of carrying out the 2:23, trust me, it would have already been undertaken long before you were brought into this world.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 22-9-2003 at 01:32 AM ]

Fuzzman

SFE-Debo got whacked years ago by Fuzzman on the 2:23 issue and today he's still getting that very same mean payback whenever he chatters 2:23. No way Debo's gonna do nothing to prove anything on the truth of the 2:23. Now that's what Fuzzman calls power in a verse.

Still shopping for a judge Debo? I'd vote a Unitarian Christian named Sonny~~ as my first choice cos I know that Sonny~~ is one Christian you cannot buy off with your lies.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 14-9-2003 at 11:55 PM ]

Debmey

Really? you mean to say I get to choose who gets to be judge?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-15 03:10 AM:
Really? you mean to say I get to choose who gets to be judge?

If you consider witnesses as judges, might as well throw in the jury too. Yeah sure if you still think that the 2:23 is all about a competition and judges, Fuzzman reckons the first potential fair trial judge that would scrutinise your "comparative chapter" in all fairness and truth would be Sonny~~, as seeing the way Sonny~~ is doing a mighty fine job  in protraying himself to be a no bullshit kinda Unitarian Christian, I'm very sure Sonny~~ would be itchin' to know how you'd fair to coughing up the chapter to defeat the Quran. Morover you can count on him to intelligently tell you that the 2:23 isn't about judges or a competition, just about having witnesses from your faith who would testify as to whether you have succeeded in overcoming the 2:23 by coughing up a chapter that has the equality and spiritual strength of the Quran.

My bets on Sonny~~ on being your very first judge. Since you're so well-versed in Islamic issues, Fuzzman's  freakin' sure that you wouldn't find it all too hard in getting any Christian scholars from Singland to be your witnesses.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 16-9-2003 at 01:09 AM ]

Debmey

Didn't Fuzzman just said :Not only are you allowed to create the likeness of the embodiment of Quran but are allowed to call upon your witnesses that would arise from your own faith to compare the strength of your creation against that of Allah's revelation.

Sonny is neither my choice nor does he share the same faith as me.
Fuzzman changes his words within less than 24hrs. so kiasu lah. How can sura 2:23, 24 be decenet competition?

Fuzzman

Debmey: Didn't Fuzzman just said :Not only are you allowed to create the likeness of the embodiment of Quran but are allowed to call upon your witnesses that would arise from your own faith to compare the strength of your creation against that of Allah's revelation.

That is correct because that is what is said in 2:23 with "besides Allah" meaning to call upon witnesses not from the Islamic faith but your own. This clearly shows that the 2:23 was not meant to be a competition and was meant for you, by your own hand or by the hand of your helpers to create an alternative greatness of the Quran and putting the finished work to the scrutinity of your witnesses of your faith to see whether you were able to complete that feat on par with the greatness of the Quran. You will learn in bitterness that even Christian scholars will find your work to be totally substandard of the Quran and that in itself will reveal the fact that Quran will prevail with the Christians willingly agreeing that no person could create passage, verse or chapter of the Quran in similiar fashion at all. That in itself will be psychological defeat and ruin the purpose of destroying merit for the revelations in Quran. Something that most Christian scholars will shy away from .

Debmey: Sonny is neither my choice nor does he share the same faith as me. Fuzzman changes his words within less than 24hrs. so kiasu lah. How can sura 2:23, 24 be decenet competition?

What did I change in less than 24 hours? You refuse Sonny~~ because you know that Sonny~~ will not dance to your tune for Sonny~~ is a Unitarian Christian. Again this is not a competition but rather a challengable religious feat. A challenge to prove that Quran did come from the same God of Abraham, as a book of continuity. If you read 2:24 which sounds ....

Soora 2:24
YUSUFALI: But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.
SHAKIR: But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.
... you will see that this verse is a prophercy in itself, just as 5:51 is,  as 2:24 clearly states what is the religiously reality that rings true to this very day. No one has succeeded in this feat. No Christian scholar had even tried to work on this feat from then until today. So what makes you think that you can? Forget about the last part of 2:24 as that was meant for those who fail in those days. Those days punishment was more severe as compared to this day. I don't think that anyone will either burn or stone you to death if you failed in the 2:23 feat but I assure you that the smirks that you will be receiving from witnesses of your own faith and the many millions of Moslems following your try would be more excruciating that the actual stoning in 2:24.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 22-9-2003 at 12:36 AM ]

Debmey

You mean to say I can't choose my witness like you said earlier?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-17 04:46 AM:
You mean to say I can't choose my witness like you said earlier?

Of course you can choose your own witnesses from your faith to compare your work against that of Quran but those that you choose must come from Christian scholars with reputation and not some Ah Too or Ah Kow whom you had picked from some church bench. You need to get hold of true Christian scholars. Get them to openly endorse your feat while promising to stay on and be your witnesses  on the quality of your work.

2:23 says nothing about judges or a competition like you like it make it out to be. You see if you had read through what says the 2:23, you would definately see that 2:23 has given you the disbeliever the benefit of the doubt. Not only are you allowed to create the likeness of the embodiment of Quran but are allowed to call upon your witnesses that would arise from your own faith to compare the strength of your creation against that of Allah's revelation. Your witnesses as 2:23 had mentioned as "besides Allah", that will arrive in the form of your brethren of the same faith who are professed as scholars in the field of religious studies must with a "open mind" and in an atmosphere of truth make decision as to whether you have succeeded in producing a chapter of verses that will readily overshadow the Quran. Fuzzman's very sure that even Christian scholars would shy away from your effort, seeing that you do not "have what it takes" to pursue this  adventure. If there was any possibility of carrying out the 2:23, trust me, it would have already been undertaken long before you were brought into this world.

ARI FUZZMAN

Debmey

Where in teh Quran does it say it can't be Ah Kow?

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-17 07:31 PM:
Where in teh Quran does it say it can't be Ah Kow?

Fine if you wanna let some Ah Too or Ah Kow you'd picked up from some sleezy corner in Singland who practically knows nuts about your cause to be your witnesses. It is self defeating as your end-product and its equally low-end witnesses would not make your work shine as you imagine it would. Only having helpers and witnesses in the form of true Christian scholars, prefably from the Vatican itself would really give a boost to your Soora creation effort. The point to be made here is that Allah has permtted so many handicaps to you but you choose to stall the 2:23. Why is that? Could it be that you fear failure as there not been even one promising venture in the face of the 2:23?

How hard can it get? How confident are you? How professional are the Christian scholars come to help you? Come on Debmey Fuzzman knows that you do not have what it takes to stand tall against the 2:23 and that fact you know only too well. Why not come out with a truthful admission of that personal defeat. No ones gonna stone you if you admit defeat!

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 18-9-2003 at 12:01 AM ]

Debmey

One doesn't need to be a professional to know that the sura like it challenge is nonsensical does he.
No where in the Quran does it restrict the judges like Fuzzman does.

Fuzzman

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-18 06:17 AM:
One doesn't need to be a professional to know that the sura like it challenge is nonsensical does he.
No where in the Quran does it restrict the judges like Fuzzman does.

This is Soora 2:23.
YUSUFALI: And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
PICKTHAL: And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
SHAKIR: And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

So where is it in 2:23 is the mention of judges and your imaginary criteria? The 2:23 only speaks of helpers and witnesses besides Allah. Know what "besides Allah" means? I'll help you out a little here. "Besides Allah" means the helpers and witnesses that come from another pespective other than the requirements of Allah. You see the 2:23 has not even talked about real Islamic intervention or debate interaction.

You need to create your challenge chapter with helpers and witnesses from your own faith that constitutes "besides Allah". Allah is All Pitiful even to unbelievers like you in the sense that Allah not only allows you to openly challenge the Quran but even allows you helpers and witnesses from your own faith. Even Allah has love for people like you. Now that is what I call a miracle.

Where is it that Fuzzman has "restricted the need of judges"? One doesn't need to be a professional to know that from day one of the 2:23 right up to now, no Christian scholar nor ordinary laymen like you were able to take on the challenge of the 2:23. So why make so much noise over your own dysfunction?

ARI FUZZMAN

Weren't you teh one who talk about who gets to judge up front? now that you are cornerered, you switch tone and say that a judges are not necessary.
If there are no judges? Then you have no challenge, its as simple as that.
The suralike it challenge is therefore invalid and unintelligible based on your interpretation.

What else?

Fuzzman

Weren't you teh one who talk about who gets to judge up front? now that you are cornerered, you switch tone and say that a judges are not necessary. If there are no judges? Then you have no challenge, its as simple as that. The suralike it challenge is therefore invalid and unintelligible based on your interpretation.

Aiya not so fastlah Ah Kow! I admit that when I mentioned judges in my thread that got wiped away from the face of this forum, it was meant to accomodate your insatiable obssesion for judges, jury and even a courthouse ! If that specific thread did not get whacked, then what you're reading now is the ensuring continuation of that thread. Don't panic lah Ah Kow ! Relaklah brader.

Quran needs no judges as it is perfect and truthful. See! even you are reduced to heckling and grumbling like an unmarried old maid when you cannot make intelligible your challenge with the help of your own helpers and witnesses from your own faith. Still can't find any daring Christian scholars brave enough to help a low-end challenger like you? Why not try the Vatican, maybe they might just have the right kind of scholars on hand to aid you seeing that they have a huge reservoir of biblical materials that might just prove to be worthy of your cause. The 2:23 was and is NEVER INVALID.  You are.

What else?

14943 posts and yet no substance from you. 2:23 is not your cup of tea. Not you or the other billions of Christians that exist today. How sad. This only proves that Quran is really what IT IS. The last revelation as foretold.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 18-9-2003 at 10:15 PM ]

No judges, no challenge. Its as simple as that.
The Quran challenge becomes invalid cos Sura 2:23 is unintelligible.

peace

Fuzzman

Originally posted by SFE talk at 2003-9-18 11:33 PM:
No judges, no challenge. Its as simple as that.
The Quran challenge becomes invalid cos Sura 2:23 is unintelligible.peace

Don't worry SFE Talk. I forgive you if you cannot do the 2:23 or even get Christian scholars to be your helpers or witnesses to your feat because this feat was never tried even before you were brought into this world for as far back as a thousand over years. 2:23 is very much very clear, precise and very very intelligible but due to your illiteracy in facing it, your mind treats it as a very difficult task thus shuting down the reality towards it.

YUSUFALI: And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

The 2:23 is so simple. Get helpers of your faith to aid in writing up a alternative chapter of any Soora of your choosing and then get witnesses from your faith [mentioned as besides Allah] to the completion of your work to see whether its content has merit to show that you have indeed created something worthy of the task. Your witnesses have to be Christian scholars who are profilate in the study of the Quran. I'm sure you know that there are Christians scholars who do comparative study of the Quran. So these are the witnesses that you must recruit for your task. Simple as that. Since you are obsessed with judges which the 2:23 does not speak of, then these witnesses are indirectly your "judges" because they can tell you off hand whether your work has basis and is not "off-taste". Of course when they read through your work they will definately question you on the historical events that you would have laid out as counter choice and its relevence.That point would be your anti-climax because you would not know where to start or pin your narrative. It has to either be from a Biblical or Quranic background.


ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 19-9-2003 at 12:19 AM ]

First you say I can bring on any judge I like.
Now you say that judges are not required.
How can anyone do the challenge when there are no judges?
How will anyone know who wins when there are no judges?
No judges, yu don't have a valid challenge.

Looks like sura 2:23 has become of no effect with Muslism like Fuzzy around. He made the quran look silly to say the least.

Fuzzman

Hahahaha so good to have you back as SFE Talk. You haven't changed a bit since your persecution from the forum and when you had to live in exile as that sheepish Debmey.

SFE Talk wrote:-
Now you say that judges are not required.
How can anyone do the challenge when there are no judges?

Fuzzman replies:-
First of all to face up to say an examination for instance. Do you follow the rules set in the examination or do you set out your own? With that piece over with, do you  find the mention of judges anywhere in soora 2:23? Come to think of it, the 2:23 is not actually a challenge. You make it sound so draconian. It is more like an invitation to a party where you are invited to bring your guests in the form of party helpers and witnesses to the things you have done in that party. You get the picture that I'm trying to paint for you? Like making things easy for you to understand, seeing that you have probelms understanding simple words and simple sentences.

SFE Talk wrote: How will anyone know who wins when there are no judges? No judges, yu don't have a valid challenge.

Fuzzman replies:-
That is why Allah is All Pitifull. That is the beauty of Allah. You see no where in soora 2:23 did Allah mention of either judges or Moslems waiting to judge you for what you had written. Allah wants you to create in peace if you can, but if you cannot that why speak of it in the first place? You see Allah is like a father to all. All fathers tend to be harsh to children who lie or blasphemer without evidence.They either get whacked or spanked. Since Allah is OMNIPOTENT and knowing that HE created all, you need to forgive his spank that can just about resound into eternity. Thus the 2:24 is for children like that. What is there to fear if you can really put up a great work to overdo the 2:23?

Allah wants to you happily create an alternative chapter that overides HIS, if you can and also get believers from your faith to judge your ability in doing so. Now if your witnesses go like "Nahhh..." or "No way..", then only will you have a probelm because that comment will come from a fellow of your faith. But if you get a low-end witness, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy if that low-end witness went "Nahhh.." on you because you'd  probably tell that bloke who is now your new-found enemy that he knows nuts. So to make sure that you don't have to go through that agony, it's better you roped in real deal Christian scholars who are really well-versed in comparative Quranic studies. Now these are the real deal Mccoys' who'd cut you no slag and death is spelled out to you in SUDDEN DEATH if they say you write empty words. At least you die in dignity knowing that the fellas that chopped you up come from  reputable Christian scholars. Then again Allah knows your coming predicarment. So that is why Allah never ever mentioned the need for judges or horror of all horrors for you, having to receive painful assessment from a Moslem witness. Now you must agree that Allah is actually working in your favor not mine. True or not !

SFE Talk wrote: How will anyone know who wins when there are no judges? No judges, yu don't have a valid challenge.

Fuzzman replies:-
Your obssession in wining has got the better of you. Most Christian scholars do not think in that manner. They work towards validating their faith. That is all.

SFE Talk wrote:-
Looks like sura 2:23 has become of no effect with Muslism like Fuzzy around. He made the quran look silly to say the least.

Fuzzman replies:-
In fact it is I that have made you look really silly. Most Christian forumers here can see by now that you do not have what it takes to take on the 2:23 and that you are resolving to heckling in circle crops to just get your way and have the last winning say. Nothing more than that.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 19-9-2003 at 09:45 AM ]

Fuzzman replies:-
First of all to face up to say an examination for instance. Do you follow the rules set in the examination or do you set out your own? With that piece over with, do you  find the mention of judges anywhere in soora 2:23? Come to think of it, the 2:23 is not actually a challenge. You make it sound so draconian. It is more like an invitation to a party where you are invited to bring your guests in the form of party helpers and witnesses to the things you have done in that party. You get the picture that I'm trying to paint for you? Like making things easy for you to understand, seeing that you have probelms understanding simple words and simple sentences.

Yes sir, but where are the rules for this exam? where are the objective criteria for the sura like it challenge that can be objectively measured?

Fuzzman replies:-
That is why Allah is All Pitifull. That is the beauty of Allah. You see no where in soora 2:23 did Allah mention of either judges or Moslems waiting to judge you for what you had written. Allah wants you to create in peace if you can, but if you cannot that why speak of it in the first place? You see Allah is like a father to all. All fathers tend to be harsh to children who lie or blasphemer without evidence.They either get whacked or spanked. Since Allah is OMNIPOTENT and knowing that HE created all, you need to forgive his spank that can just about resound into eternity. Thus the 2:24 is for children like that. What is there to fear if you can really put up a great work to overdo the 2:23?

No judge, no competition, quran challenge invalid and I win, thats all I know.

The quran challenge reamisn unintelligible up till now.

peace

Fuzzman

Read soora 2:23 again my dear learned friend .
YUSUFALI: And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

Finished? Good. Now answer the following.
1. Is there any mention of a competition in soora 2:23?
2. Is there mention of the need for judges?
3. Is there mention of a need for a criteria, other then the already stated invitation of producing a chapter of the likeness of any chapter of your choice?
4. Isn't there mention of the "rules of the examination" in the soora itself ? Be honest.
5. Is soora 2:23 really a challenge? Hasn't it started off with "when in doubt' ?
6. Does the call to resolve when in doubt constitute a full fledge challenge? If so please characterise the framework of your assumption.
7. Does the sentencing of "when in doubt" constitute a challenge or more so an invitation to investigate one's doubt over a certain misunderstood subject ?

Soora 2:23 is more like RPG gaming where as you try more to decipher the soora, the more you will learn and understand the beauty and truth of the Quran. That is why most Christian scholars shy away from the 2:23 for fear that more indepth study of the 2:23 would only lead to Quranic appreaciation thus defeating the primary goal of abominating the Al-Quran.

ARI FUZZMAN

[ Last edited by Fuzzman on 19-9-2003 at 10:23 AM ]