WE HAVE TO PERSEVERE PATIENTLY & GUARD AGAINST EVIL

Its the start of a new day and a new week.

Let us begin with a message from God, from the Holy Qur'an:

005.013


" But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind."

Lets dwell further into the 'Testaments'

The Problem with Translations

The Italians have an interesting adage which says that "translators are liars". This is not so much a vicious accusation as it is an acute observation. Taking something written in one language and trying to put it into another is problematic because one always encounters words in one language that simply have no equivalent in the other. Substitutions must be made, and the meaning of phrases change as a result.

The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, but was translated during the third century B. C. E. into Greek for the Jews who lived outside of Palestine (and who spoke Greek rather than Hebrew on a regular basis). Called "Septuagint", this version was widely used even by the early Christians.

The New Testament was written in Greek; since Jesus himself spoke Aramaic, however, this means that his words were subsequently translated and the possibility for error brought into play.

The Septuagint was joined up with the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in the fourth century; these manuscripts of the complete Bible are now known as the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus, and are the earliest manuscripts in existence today. Nothing earlier has survived.

During the fourth century, the Bible was translated into Latin by St. Jerome, and this remained the language of the Bible until the early 16th century when men of the Reformation like John Wycliffe, William Tyndale and Martin Luther translated the Bible into the languages of the people -- an act which was strictly forbidden and for which Tyndale paid with his life. They did this because of a desire to put the Bible into the hands of the people who, up until this time, were not allowed access to their own Scriptures.

Other translations soon made their appearance; near the end of the 16th century, the many and varied versions of the Bible currently in circulation had become the cause of so many arguments that King James I of England appointed a committee of 54 scholars to produce an " authoritative" version. These men studied all the known translations in existence at the time and, in 1611, produced the King James Version of the Bible -- which became the standard among Christians for hundreds of years.

The Modern Problem: New Versions

Where the mischief associated with translations pretty much ended in 1611 with the publication of the King James Version of the Bible, the problem of revision -- "updating" or "modernizing" the Bible -- has now taken over.

The extent of this new form of mischief can be seen as follows: in 1952, an article entitled "The Truth About the Bible" appeared in Look magazine. This article said that there were at least 20,000 errors in the New Testament alone. Jehovah's Witnesses addressed this issue in the September, 1957 issue of their Awake magazine (several forum members including myself have reproduced the article which appeared in this magazine). A rather unique statement was made in the process: "...translators made errors in translation {of the Bible} that have been corrected by modern scholars..."

And what fun these modern scholars have had in so doing!!:re:

In the 19th century, the Christians decided to modernize the language of the King James Version. Their effort, called the American Standard Version, was published in 1901. The Christians who worked on this version, however, not only updated the language -- they made changes to the text itself:

1) Admitting to an interpolation -- the fact that such was not found in the early Greek manuscripts of the Bible that were still in existence --- the words "Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost", found in I John 5:8 of the King James Version were changed by the scholars to read "the Spirit, and the water and the blood"

2) the entire verse found in Matthew 17:21 that deals with spiritual advancement by prayer and fasting was removed from the American Standard Version, and the word "fasting" deleted from a similar verse found in Mark 9:29.

The explanation for this, found in a footnote, reads "many authorities, some ancient, insert ver. 21".

3) Admitting to yet another case of interpolation, John 7:53 and John 8:1-11 are bracketed off with yet another note that these "are not found in the most ancient manuscripts".

A number of years later, Church people again got together and decided to update the American Standard Version. The result of their efforts, the Revised Standard Version, was released in 1952.

In the preface to this Version, we read the following: "...the King James Version has grave defects...these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision..."

In the Revised Standard Version, we find that the verses in the gospel of Mark pertaining to the ascension of Jesus (Mark 16:9-20) have been removed because it was said, once again, that these particular verses are not to be found in the "most ancient" manuscripts.

In 1989, the New Revised Standard Version was published -- an "update" of the Revised Standard Edition of 1952--and the verses dealing with the ascension of Jesus in Mark chapter 16 reappear here. Since many Christians didn't take well to the "undermining" of a basic belief by the editors of the Revised Standard Version, the verses were put back in this version.

In summation, through copying over the years, translations and various new "versions", what is known as the Bible is now more the writings of man than of revelations from God.:2cool:

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 19-1-2004 at 10:46 AM ]

H猷L鰃頧

"Mohd contradicted the Bible and broke almost all the ten commandments.
The Christians in Arabia were correct, Mohd was  false prophet."

such contradict statement, Quran has 10 commandments already.

006.093



"Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what Allah hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against Allah, and scornfully to reject of His signs!"

The Islamic Standpoint

My Muslim brothers and sisters, the whole matter of man tampering with God's revelations is the reason why the Qur'an was given to Prophet Muhammad: the Final Revelation to the Last of God's Messengers.

The Qur'an talks about this tampering with previous Divine Revelations in a number of verses, such as:

2:59



"But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly."

2:75



"Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it."


3:78



"There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!"

These verses also point up to another fact that, while Muslims are told to believe in revelations that came before the Qur'an, belief in these books--that of the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel -- refers to belief in the ORIGINAL revelations from God; certainly not in what we find in the Bibles of today, nor even of the Jewish and Christian scriptures that existed in the time of Prophet Muhammad.

The Muslim belief is that the Qur'an came forth from God to correct all those inavertent and deliberate alterations to His earlier revelations. God made it quite clear that this, His Final Revelation, would not suffer the fate of previous work:

15:9



"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it from corruption."

On this, the Qur'an stands firm. It has remained unchanged since the time it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad, and there are original manuscripts still in Madinah, Saudi Arabia, is a copy of the Qur'an from the 7th century: it is the earliest copy known in existence, and was handwritten on gazelle skin only a few years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. Another 7th century copy, this one from the time of Caliph Uthman, is in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. If one were to take an Arabic Qur'an from today and compare the text in it with the text in one of these 7th century Qur'ans, he would find no discrepancies.

The Arabic text has not been altered in any way despite the passage of over 1400 years. As such, there can be no better proof than this for the Qur'anic injunction that God has kept His promise to guard this, His Final Revelation.

As for man altering Divine Revelations, the Qur'an says the following:

18:27



"And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him."

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 19-1-2004 at 11:54 AM ]

Let us continue with our discussion.

Within the multitude of religions that exist in the world today there are three which consider themselves to be monotheistic -- that is, faiths in which belief is centered around the One God.

A closer look, at two of these religions -- Judaism and Islam -- will show this to be true: both Jews and Muslims worship One God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

The other religion, that of Christianity, presents a problem, however, when it comes to the definition of monotheism as opposed to what Christianity stands for. Instead of making God the center of their faith, the Christians have turned their focus on Jesus, who is known to them as "Jesus Christ", or "Jesus the Anointed One". To the Jews, Jesus was "a nice Jewish boy"; to the Muslims, Jesus was a human prophet; one of God's Chosen Messengers. To the Christians, however, Jesus is much more.

Christianity is focused on Jesus Christ. The religion takes its name from Jesus Christ. All Christian doctrines are centered around Jesus Christ. Major Christian holidays mark events in the life of Jesus Christ. The symbol of the Christian faith, a cross, is indicative of Jesus Christ. Prayers of the Christians are addressed to Jesus Christ, as they consider God Himself to be unapproachable by a mere man.

According to Christian author Fritz Ridenour, "the key to Christianity is that Jesus Christ really is the reason for it all and that he is holding it all together."

Many Christians today are unable to comprehend the existence of God without Jesus Christ standing there in the foreground for them. Mr. Ridenour says that Christianity is " ...a relationship with a person, Jesus Christ", and all too many Christians are in this position: they know God in no other way but through Jesus Christ.

The Christians say they worship God, but Jesus is also right there in the picture. As they see him -- in addition to God -- as being divine, Christianity is a religion with TWO gods, not one; and a religion with more than one God is not monotheistic.

How did this situation come to be? How did the religion of Christianity turn a human prophet from God into a god himself?


A CONVENANT GONE AWAY

In order to understand the actual mission of Jesus, we must go back before his time in history to find out why he was sent in the first place. Fed up with the idolatry among his people, Abraham left his country in approximately 2000 B.C.E. in order to have freedom to worship God alone.

It was hard for him to leave his family behind, however, so God blessed him with two sons;

God then comforted Abraham by saying that, of his youngest son Isaac, He would make a great nation (Genesis 17: 16,19). Of Isaac was later born the Jewish nation, God's "chosen" people. (We look later on at God's promise to Abraham's other son, Ishmael.)

Despite this lofty position of the designated "Chosen People" of God, the Jews continually slipped back into idol worship and God sent prophet after prophet in order to warn the Jews of His displeasure with their behavior. When the warnings failed to change the situation, hostile neighboring countries came in and wreaked havoc upon the Jewish people.

Although God granted respite in many instances upon hearing the Jews' cries for mercy, His wrath was so kindled in 581 B.C.E. at their continued disobedience that He allowed the Babylonians to sweep into the southern Jewish kingdom of Judah, where King Nebuchadnezzar and his armies proceeded to destroy Jerusalem and carry the Jews off into captivity.

The upper Jewish kingdom of Israel had met a similar fate in 721 B.C.E. at the hands of the Assyrians. Scattered abroad with their Temple destroyed, the Jews turned their focus onto the Law. Monotheism was once again lost, but this time in an ever-increasing maze of elaborate rites and rituals.

It was this situation that was present in the world when Jesus received his calling from God.

We will look more into  this together tomorrow, insyaAllah.:2cool:

H猷L鰃頧

unlike Christian, Islam is neo-universalis-Judaism form. Accepting ONE god

WHAT WAS JESUS' MISSION?

Upon beginning his ministry at the approximate age of 30, Jesus made it clear that his mission from God was to get the Jews back on track:

"For the son of man is come to save that which was lost." (Matthew 18:11)

"For I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. " (Matthew 15:24)

Jesus also made it clear just what God wanted him to do:

"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" (John 12:49)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

A careful study of Jesus' words will show that, contrary to what Christians may think, Jesus had no intention of starting a new religion; he only came to reiterate the message that God had given to all prophets before him: man was to obey God's Laws and worship Him alone.

At no time during his ministry did Jesus claim to be anything more than a human being, inspired by God.

Indeed, he referred to himself as the son of man, and made it clear, in a number of verses throughout the Gospel, that he was merely a Messenger of God:

"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but One, that is God." (Mark 10:18)

"...whosover receives me, receives not me, but Him who sent me." (Mark 9:37)

"And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou has sent." (John 17:3)

"Now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard from God." (John 8:40)

"I ascend unto my Father and your Father, my God and your God." (John 20:17)

Despite all his efforts--wonderful words backed up with some pretty nifty miracles--Jesus was soundly rejected, especially by his own people.

Three years after he began his ministry, he was arrested and charged with sedition and blasphemy. Success had eluded him -- at the end of his life on earth, he left behind only a mere handful of followers, nor more than 500 at the most.

This all changed dramatically, however, when a new preacher, claiming to speak in the name of Jesus, came upon the scene only a few years later.

Who was this new preacher?

zonan

thanx my dear brother Kenkid for that usefull information. can u tell me where did u find that sura with it's translation?

Originally posted by zonan at 20-1-2004 08:36 PM:
thanx my dear brother Kenkid for that usefull information. can u tell me where did u find that sura with it's translation?

Hi Brother Zonan, the sura & the translation is courtesy of:

;)http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/1/1_1.htm

Permit me to continue from where we were last:

THE TRUE FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY

The followers of Jesus, who called themselves "Nazarenes", continued to incite controversy wherever they went after Jesus had left the earth; they did this by continuing to echo his words of doom ahead for the Jews if they did not get their act together very soon.

One of these Nazarenes, a man named Stephen, finally pushed things too far by letting loose with an inflammatory speech when hauled up in front of the Jewish judges known as the Sanhedrin. Howling with fury at his "Blasphemous" words, the judges jumped up and dragged Stephen out of the city, where he was stoned to death. This story can be found in Acts chapter 7 in the Bible.

The execution of Stephen was observed by a young Jew named Saul. Born in Tarsus, not much later than Jesus himself, Saul had become part of the Jewish sect of the Pharisees; these "legal eagles" had become fanatic in their pursuit of the Nazarenes; following the execution of Stephen, Paul himself began to take a very active role in this endeavor.

His performance in this capacity was so good that he was made chief agent for this purpose in Jerusalem, and he was given the necessary documents to extend the purge into neighboring cities.

Approximately five years after Jesus' ascension to heaven, this 25 year old zealot was on his way to Damascus to pick up a group of Nazarenes for return to Jerusalem when he had a vision in which he claimed Jesus appeared, asking why Saul was persecuting him.

Various theories have been advanced as to just what happened to Saul that day -- such as sunstroke, a hallucination, and even an epileptic seizure -- but nothing is for certain except that whatever did happen changed a zealous persecutor into an ardent preacher.

Saul changed his name to Paul and went off into the deserts of Arabia in order to think about just how he was going to go about carrying out what he believed to be a command from Jesus to go out and preach.

Exactly WHAT to do was quite a dilemma for him, however; since the Jews had rejected Jesus and his message, Paul didn't think he stood much of chance of getting through to them, either. He made up his mind that it would be best to simply dismiss them off and target the Gentiles (non-Jews) instead. In order to do this, however, some creative thinking was definitely called for.


Saul, who later became Paul

The Romans and the Greeks, who made up the Gentile population of Paul's world, were pagans who worshiped a plethora of gods and goddesses. Temples and statues of their deities abounded in the land, and Roman law had it that all people, with the exception of the Jews, must pay homage to the gods.

Paul knew that people with such deep-reaching pagan beliefs were not going to accept the idea that grace and salvation could come from a person who was only considered to be a most upright and righteous human being.
If Paul wanted quick results in his ministry, he knew that he would have to "modulate" things a bit, taking into account the culture of the Gentiles.

Paul Maier, in his book "First Christians", tells us that 13 years elapsed between the time Paul "received his calling" and the time that he began preaching. During that 13 years, Paul's creative mind put in a lot of overtime; when he finally returned to Damascus, he came back armed with the knowledge that the Gentiles would demand a tangible god within their new religion, and he was prepared to give this to them.

Paul was wildly successful in his subsequent missionary efforts, what with the accommodations he ended up making for the Gentiles. Although the religion of Christianity takes its name from Jesus Christ, Paul of Tarsus must be considered as its true founder, as he is the one who conceived all of its doctrines, and set up its churches throughout the world of his time. Christians don't deny this, either: "No figure in Christian history stands so tall or has had such a tremendous influence as has Saul of Tarsus..."

In his book "The 100: A Ranking of the most Influential Persons In History", author Michael Hart concurs in saying:

"No other man played so large a role in the propagation of Christianity."

There is one big problem with this picture, however: the teachings of Paul, the true founder of Christianity, cannot be found anywhere in the teachings of Jesus or in those of prophets before him.:re:

Not only that, but Paul had little contact with the true disciples of Jesus who also might have set him straight; they were not in agreement with Paul's innovative teachings, and let him know this as much as possible.

In the end, however, Paul's brand of Christianity won out because, through his charismatic personality, not to mention the fact that he and his companions out-matched the true disciples of Jesus in important manners such as social rank, wealth and education, he gained such a large following among the Gentiles. Judeo-Christianity, that of the disciples of Jesus, didn't stand a chance.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 21-1-2004 at 12:02 PM ]

>>At no time during his ministry did Jesus claim to be anything more than a human being, inspired by God.<<<


Many people and religions claim the Jesus never said He was God. Is that true? Well maybe if you try to find those words: "I am God" in the writings of what Jesus said. However, He most certainly did claim to be God in other ways. The Jews knew that only God can forgive sins, so they understood what Jesus was saying when He healed the lame man and said: (Mat 9:2 NIV) Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." In effect He was claiming here to be God and to have the right to forgive sins, which belonged to God alone.

..

When Moses saw the burning bush, and God talked to him and told him to go to Egypt, Moses asked who should he say sent him. God answered: (Exo 3:14 NIV) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Now look at what Jesus said (John 8:58 NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" A man could not claim that, Abraham was born thousands of years before Jesus. The wording itself tells us that Jesus was claiming that He was the great I AM, or in other words God.


....

Let's look at another statement that Jesus made: (John 10:28-33 NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

There was no doubt in the Jews mind that Jesus was claiming to be God.

And by denying the fact Jesus is god - you have infact reenacted the deeds of those stone-throwing jews.

[ Last edited by whitepig on 21-1-2004 at 01:51 PM ]

>>According to Christian author Fritz Ridenour, "the key to Christianity is that Jesus Christ really is the reason for it all and that he is holding it all together."<<

you better believe that...
so ,don't be caught dead without Jesus - so the saying goes.


  6   6   5    6    5  4  -6  -6   6
He's got the whole wor-ld in His hands,

  6   6   5    -5  -4  -3 -6 -6    6
He's got the whole wor-ld in His hands,

  6   6   5    6    5  4  -6 -6    6
He's got the whole wor-ld in His hands,

6    6   5    6     6   -5 -4    4
He's got the whole world in His hands !

[ Last edited by whitepig on 21-1-2004 at 01:54 PM ]

Let's now take a closer look at all of the innovations that Paul introduced into "his" religion of Christianity.

DOCTRINES OF CHRISTIANITY

1) Son of Man or Son of God?

Simply put, the Doctrine of Divinity states that Jesus is the son of God -- the Word of God made flesh. Even though Jesus himself, as mentioned earlier, never claimed to be divine, Paul gave him this attribute for one reason: to gain converts among the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were pagans who were used to worshiping gods that had wonderful legends and myths behind them.

Several of the pagan deities of the time -- Mithras, Adonis, Attis and Osiris, to name a few -- were all the offspring of a supreme ruling god, and each had died a violent death at a young age, coming back to life a short time later in order to save their people.

Paul took this into account, giving the pagans something similar in Christianity: he attributed divinity to Jesus, saying he was the son of God (the Supreme), and that he, too, had died for their sins. In so doing, Paul compromised the teachings of Jesus with pagan beliefs in order to make Christianity more acceptable to the Gentiles.:re:

Paul did not, of course, make mention of pagan origins for this particular doctrine. Only one who does some real digging into that particular time in history -- the people and their culture -- will learn of this fact. Paul justified this doctrine in other ways. In particular, he felt that there were five reasons why Jesus was to be considered divine:

1) Jesus was born of a Virgin without the "aid" of a father

To this, one can bring up the matter of Adam, the first man. He was born without the aid of a father OR a mother, yet he is not thought of as divine;

2) Jesus performed miracles

To this, one can bring up Moses and the prophet Elisha; both performed some pretty spectacular miracles, yet neither is thought of as divine. The fact that Jesus did perform miracles is not really proof of divinity as he was quick to point out, when such things occurred, that the power to perform these marvelous feats came from God -- not from him. His miracles were done for the same reason that earlier prophets performed them: to authenticate his message for some rather stubborn people.

3) Jesus had a "eerless" character

To this, one can point out a number of instances in the Gospels -- such as his calling Peter "Satan" in Matthew 16:23, and calling others "snakes and sons of vipers" in Matthew 23:33 after making a point of saying earlier, in Matthew 5:22, that use of hurtful names is wrong -- that raise some doubts about this attribute, as far as the Jesus of the Gospels is portrayed;

4) Jesus rose from the dead

Yes, to "conquer death" is quite a feat, but what of the prophet Elijah who didn't even die, but was taken directly to heaven in a fiery chariot (II Kings 2:11)? Quite a spectacular feat, yet he is not thought of as divine. And finally, Christians say that

5) Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament

Christians are quick to point out Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of the coming of Jesus and his mission to mankind. The problem here, however, is that no name is mentioned in this chapter. Without a specific name, who knows exactly WHO this chapter is talking about??:stp:

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 21-1-2004 at 05:06 PM ]

we know.. and that is good enough. Plus all the proof below is more than.enough. pity u don't read what u cut n paste. Since u are an armchair expert in Isaiah you should very well know REVELATIONS & DANIELS. In both, Satan is prophesied to come down as human form , the son of perdition, but of course you won't get the name of the devil , do you? well do you ? you can paste all those emoticons with heads' scratching - well scratch on because you people just don't get it. And i m happy for that.

In the quran does it gives you the name of the dajal during khiamat??

.... ... ..... ........
[size=3]
Verse No. 12
"Unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given, and the  
government shall be upon His shoulders. And His name shall  
be called Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God, the  
Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."  Isaiah 9:6
Perceived by the "man of extraordinary faith": This prophecy was for Jesus and he was the Almighty God.

. In the the Old Testament, according to the Masoretic Text, the name is called; Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; that is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.  These are not the names of Jesus but the Attributes of God

....................
more solid proof here

From the Old Testament Isaiah 53 (750 years before Jesus):
----------------------------------------------------------

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report?

(certainly not the Jews... yet)

          and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

(The ARM OF GOD 'Jesus' is revealed to those believing him.)


(ARM OF GOD Proof:-)

        2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
          and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form  
          nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there
          is no beauty that we should desire him.

(The Jews rejected Jesus as not fitting their expected
hopes for a messiah, Jesus came to die for our sins.)

        3 He is despised and rejected of men;

(Jews rejected Jesus)

          a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:

(The lame, poor, thieves, prostitutes, etc... accepted him)

          and we hid as it were our faces from him;

(They didn't want to associate with him due to the people
he helped)

          he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(And most Jews still don't see Jesus for who he is.)

        4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried
          our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken,
          smitten of God, and afflicted.
        5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,

(Jesus was heavily beaten, whipped, and died for our sins)

          he was bruised for our iniquities: the
          chastisement of our peace was upon him;
          and with his stripes we are healed.

(The shroud shows some 140 stripes {scourging} on his body)

        6 All we like sheep have gone astray;

(Jesus likened his followers to sheep that occasionally
get lost, needing a good shepherd to come find them)

          we have turned every one to his own way;

(Sheep off getting lost)

          and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity
          of us all.

(Again, Jesus died for the sins of the world)

        7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,

(See what the Romans did to him prior to him dying)

          yet he opened not his mouth:

(Jesus did not defend himself against his accusers)

          he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,

(Jesus was also said to be the replacement for the
sacrificial lamb used to pay for sins)

          and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
          so he openeth not his mouth.

(Again, Jesus would not defend himself and allowed them
to kill him)

        8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:

(It's recorded history, Jesus was taken and judged)

          and who shall declare his generation?

(His followers declare who Jesus is)

          for he was cut off out of the land of the living:

(Jesus died)

          for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

(Lambs were and are sacrificed for sins, but Jesus has
paid that price for all who accept his dying for our sins)

        9 And he made his grave with the wicked,

(Crucified next to two thieves)

          and with the rich in his death;

(Buried by Joseph of Aramathea, a rich man, in a tomb
originally made for Joseph of Aramathea)

          because he had done no violence, neither was any
          deceit in his mouth.

(Again, Jesus did not defend himself or lie about why he
was there, they just couldn't believe him)

       10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;

(Jesus is a RETURN sacrifice that matches Abraham's offer
of love to God. Here God is offering his love to us. It's
an extreme amount of love to follow through with it and
it made God happy to offer such and that Jesus would do it.)

          he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his
          soul an offering for sin,

(Again, Jesus died for our sins.)

          he shall see his seed,

(Jesus himself said the "seed" are the children of God,
also known initially as apostles and disciples.)

          he shall prolong his days,

(Jesus raised from the dead)

          and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper
          in his hand.

(Again, God was happy to send HIS HAND, or ARM OF GOD,
or Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus himself gave a
verse set {John 10:28-30} that plainly shows Jesus
ADMITTING he's AT LEAST God's HAND.)

       11 He shall see of the travail of his soul,
          and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall
          my righteous servant justify many; for he
          shall bear their iniquities.

(Again, God saw Jesus do what he had set up, that Jesus
would die for the sins of the world.)

       12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
          and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;

(Jesus said God gives followers into Jesus's hand, Jesus
also said he will forgive sins for those who believe him
and also that he would divide those who believe from
those who don't believe)

          because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

(Jesus died, but later will divide the spoil with the strong)

         and he was numbered with the transgressors;

[ Last edited by whitepig on 21-1-2004 at 05:58 PM ]

The Term "Son of God"

The term "son of God" was not something new; it had been used in the Old Testament to refer to David (Psalms 2:7) and his son Solomon (I Chronicles 22:100), and to refer to Adam (Luke 3:38) in the New Testament.

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, detailed in Matthew, Jesus tells his listeners:

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." In all cases, the term "son of God''  was NOT meant to be applied literally, but to signify love and affection from God to the righteous. "Son of God" means a special closeness TO God -- not to be OF God. After all, every man is a son of God, as He is the Creator of all life.

The Term "Messiah"

Another term used by Christians to back up their theory of Jesus being divine is that of Messiah (see John 1:41). The word "Messiah" is a Hebrew word which means "God's anointed", and the word "Christ" (originally Kristos) is simply the Greek translation of this Hebrew word. Messiah or Christ, Hebrew or Greek -- both words mean the same thing: "God's anointed".

This term, however, was not applied to Jesus exclusively, having been applied to others before him. In psalms 2:2, it is applied to David, and in Isaiah 45:1, it is applied to Cyrus.

The Jews thought of their kings as "messiahs", in the sense that God had figuratively anointed them. The whole concept of Messiah was Jewish, applied to a national deliverer who they believed would, with divine assistance, save them from oppression by the Gentiles. It did not bring with it the attribute of divinity.

The Term "Savior"

A final term used by Christians is that of  "Savior". In this case, also, Jesus was not the first to whom this was applied.

When Syria waged war against the kingdom of Israel, Jehoahaz the king begged God for help; in 11 kings 13:5, God told him:

"And the Lord gave Israel a savior, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians."

When Jehoash, his son, took over the throne, he did as God promised; in II Kings 13:25, Jehoash became the savior of his people because he defeated the Syrians and recovered the cities of the northern kingdom of Israel. The word Savior does not bring the attribute of divinity with it, either.

The use of Mistranslations

Names aside, another method used by Christians when trying to prove the divinity of Jesus is that of mistranslating various passages in the Bible. They have two favorites they love to quote in this regard:

1) The first we find is John 10:30, where Jesus says:

"I and my Father are one."

Use of logic on this verse shows that it only implies that Jesus speaks IN the name of God -- not that he IS God.

Jesus and God have a oneness in purpose -- not in essence.

The Christian would do well to look further at John 17, for instance. Jesus is praying in this chapter, and his words leave no doubt as to the fact that he is only a servant of God.

For confirmation of this idea of oneness in purpose, not essence, we look to several verses found in the seventeenth chapter of John, the first of which is John 17:8. Here Jesus says:

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me and they have believed that thou didst send me."

In John 17:11 is yet another affirmation of a oneness in purpose, for Jesus says:

"...Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

This theme of oneness in purpose is again reiterated in John 17:21-23.

In short, John 10:30 is NOT a statement by Jesus attesting to his divinity, but to a oneness with God in purpose, as can be seen by the afore-mentioned verses from John 17.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 23-1-2004 at 02:44 AM ]

..then for what reason does the jews want to stone jesus?

what reason?

Hi, i have a few questions for you.

MY BELOVED MUSLIM BROTHERS & SISTERS, WE HAVE TO PERSEVERE PATIENTLY & GUARD AGAINST EVIL

Would you consider 9-11 an evil act?

Would you consider honour killings an evil act?

Would you consider the death of innocent Jewish pedestrians by a palestinian suicide bomber an act of evil?

How do you feel about stoning?

How islamic do you feel Malaysia (excluding PAS controlled states) really is?

Would you like to see Malaysia lean towards a more fundamentalist islamic state?

How do you feel about Jewish people in general? Have you ever met or spoken to one before in your life?

Were you happy when you learned Saddam was captured?

Would you consider yourself a moderate muslim?

I'm not heckling you, i really want to know your answers to these questions.

022.017



Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists, - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

Brothers & sisters, let us continue with our study:

2) The other favorite verse quoted by christians is that of John 14:9.
In it, Jesus tells Phillip:

"He that hath seen me hath seen the Father."

The Christian who takes this as an affirmation by Jesus of his divinity would do well to look at John 5:37 in which Jesus says:

"And the Father Himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape."

If not convinced, the Christian might check back into the Old Testament book of Exodus where, in chapter 33, verse 20, God tells Moses:

"...Thou canst not see my face: for there shall be no man see me, and live."

A better way to look at John 14.9 would be in a figurative sense: since Jesus was bringing the Word of God, seeing and listening to him was like having God right there.

Jesus was acting on the command of God -- he was not actually God. This is most clearly seen in John 8:19, where Jesus says:

"If you knew me, you would know my Father also".

There are other verses, of course, that a Christian will turn to in his efforts to attribute divinity to Jesus, but all can be seen as nothing more than a mistranslation on his part -- a desire to read or see something there that is not really there.

We have only to look at John 17:3 to see that Jesus was not conveying any new message; here he says:

"...and this is life eternal that they should know Thee the only True God and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent."

He is telling us that we must believe in the One and Only True God and that he, Jesus Christ, is only a Messenger sent from God.

Did Jesus Actually Come Out and Say He Was Divine?

Christians are quick to point out the many references Jesus makes to himself in the Gospel of John as the "son of God". On the other hand, they tend to ignore the equally numerous references in the very same gospel where Jesus refers to himself as the "son of man". This clearly points up to the fact that, once again, the term "son of God" is not meant to be taken in a literal sense. Jesus had a very special closeness with God -- he was a child of God in the sense that we are all God's children.

In Matthew 16:13, Jesus asks his disciples who do they think he is. Christians gravitate toward Peter's answer, found in Matthew 16:16, where he says "Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God." Interestingly enough, in the account of the same event that is found in Mark 8: 16, Peter says only "Thou art the Christ.":re: Just a few words added in Matthew as opposed to Mark, but quite a change to the whole meaning of the words!

Even more interesting, however, is a point most Christians again tend to ignore, found just a few verses further down in Matthew 16. In verse 20 -- and also in Mark 8:30 -- Jesus tells his disciples that they are not to tell anyone else that he is the Christ. Why did he not want others to know this?

What Did Paul Accomplish?

By saying that Jesus was divine, Paul appealed to the masses in terms they were very much at home with, and his success was ensured. His enthusiasm and charisma, coupled with his ready willingness to compromise the true message of Jesus with pagan beliefs led him to ascribe sonship to Jesus -- a dubious belief at best, since sonship describes one who was created, while divinity describes a being eternal in nature.:stp:

Later Church leaders thought to neatly end the confusion by saying that Jesus was God-incarnate -- an eternal being who "chose" to become a man in the womb of Mary. Jesus had, in other words, two natures -- divine and human -- which were united in one single person. While they probably meant well, making a statement such as this only led to more confusion.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 24-1-2004 at 12:31 PM ]

u have avoided the question again & again.. why did the jews attempt to stone jesus??

The Christian argues that In John 8:58 Jesus says: "Verily verily I say unto you before Abraham was I AM (ego eimi)"  to explain to the Jews that He had actually seen Abraham in Gen 18, thus making himself (Jesus) out to be the I AM of the Old Testament, in short Jehovah aka God.

According to the christians, the Jews understood this and so attempted to stone Him.:bg:

Throughout the various English translations of the Bible, the translators have translated 'ego eimi' in several ways and has not stuck to merely translating it to "I am", as the Christian would like us to believe.  'Ego eimi' does not neccessarily translate into "I am".:2cool:

First, the reason why different translations of John 8:58 have different renderings has nothing to do with the Septuagint&#8217;s rendering of Exodus 3:14. Rather, it has to do with the context of John 8:58.

Scholars have noted that the use of ego eimi in the context of John 8:58 is to highlight past existence that continues to the present moment. This is known as PPA, or present of past action still in progress, or simply as EP, extension of past idiom.

The Christian then proceeds to cite a number of quotes from a couple of their missionaries, not Greek scholars. He obviously wants to try to impress us with his knowledge of Greek grammar, but the truth is that he and his "scholars" have no idea of the Greek usage of ego eimi in the above passage.:2cool:

The action expressed in John 8:58 started "before Abraham came into existence" and is still in progress. In such a situation, 'eimi' (eimi) which is the first-person singular present indicative, is properly translated by the perfect indicative. Examples of the same syntax can be found in Luke 2:28; 13:7; 15:29; John 5:6; 14:9; 15:27; Acts 15:21; 2 Corinthians 12:19; John 3:8.

Concerning the construction, A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament by G.B. Winer, 7th ed., Andover, 1897, p. 267 says:

"Sometimes the Present includes also a past tense (Mdv. 108), viz. when the verb expresses a state which commenced at an earlier period but still continues - a state in its duration; as Jno. xv 27 ap archrV met emou este (ap' ar-khes met e-mou e-ste), vii. 58 prin Abraam genesai egw eimi [prin A-bra-am ge-nesthai ego eimi]"

Likewise, A Grammar of New Testament Greek by J.H. Moulton, Vol III by Nigel Turner, Edinburgh, 1963, p. 62 says:

"The present which indicates the continuance of an action during the past and up to the moment of speaking is virually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress...It is frequent in the New Testament]: Luke 2:48; 13:7...15:29....John 5:6; 8:58..."

In short, one can easily get the impression that the usage of ego eimi is certainly not uncommon throughout the Greek New Testament, and thus cannot be used as evidence for the claim that Jesus is God.

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 24-1-2004 at 06:29 PM ]