Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18.. To whom does this prophecy refer?"

Debmey

Mo cannot fulfill that prophecy, thats teh whoelpoint of this thread.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-4 11:33 PM:
Mo cannot fulfill that prophecy, thats teh whoelpoint of this thread.

Like I said, the prophesy is unfulfilled without him.  Take it or leave it.

Debmey

OK, you finally admit that Mo does not fit the Deu 18 prophet.
You are the first Muslim that I have met to admit it.
Thank you very much.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-4 11:42 PM:
OK, you finally admit that Mo does not fit the Deu 18 prophet.
You are the first Muslim that I have met to admit it.
Thank you very much.

Now you play games with words.  I said THE PROPHESY IS UNFULILLED WITHOUT MUHAMMAD.  Which means that if it is not about muhammad it is unfulfilled.

Debmey

Which means Mo did not fulfill it, especially when yu fail to answer to my exposure of Muslim folly.

peace

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-5 12:05 AM:
Which means Mo did not fulfill it, especially when yu fail to answer to my exposure of Muslim folly.

peace

It means that if YOU SAY MUHAMMAD DID NOT FILL IT, then it has not been fulfilled.  I say it has been filled by Muhammad.  I posted my reasons why.  Whether you take or not is up to you.  But if YOU SAY it is not Muhammad, you just admitted to an unfulfilled prophesy in the bible.

Debmey

One way or another, Mo does not fit Deu 18.

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-4 17:08:
One way or another, Mo does not fit Deu 18.

my conclusion, after so much posting [fly]..Debmey became from Dumb to Dumber..:nana::nana::nana:.. [/fly] ..lepas tu dimasukkan ke Hospital Bahagia diTanjung Rambutan..

[ Last edited by Terong Pipit on 5-9-2003 at 02:17 AM ]

amorist

Originally posted by Debmey at 2003-9-4 11:17 PM:
Even if what you claim is correct, which of course it isn't, how does that change the fact that mo is not the prophet described in Deu 18?

Deut 18:18 says that the prophet is someone who is like Moses, and Muhammad fits that description perfectly. Jesus does not. Nobody else in history comes anywhere near being like Moses.

This prophet is then explained further in Isaiah 21:

Isaiah 21
A Prophecy Against Arabia
13 An oracle concerning Arabia:

You caravans of Dedanites,
who camp in the thickets of Arabia,
14 bring water for the thirsty;
you who live in Tema,
bring food for the fugitives.
15 They flee from the sword,
from the drawn sword,
from the bent bow
and from the heat of battle.

16 This is what the Lord says to me: "Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar, will be few." The LORD , the God of Israel, has spoken.

Tema and Kedar are the names of Ismael's sons. The descendents of Tema lived in Medinah and the descendents of Kedar lived in Mecca. In the verse above, Tema refers to Medinah and Kedar refers to Mecca.

This prophesy came true during the time of Muhammad. On his way to Medinah, when he fled from the Meccans, he was given water by a group of people (dedanites). Then he went to Medinah (Tema). 13 years later (well within the working life of a servant), he returned victorious to Mecca, where most of the inhabitants accepted Islam, and the number of pagans in Mecca (the warriors of Kedar)  became very few.

Truth.8

So Muslims says Jesus is Not God but prophet. Then Dut 18:18 apply to Jesus and not Muhammad.

so simple and yet this Muslims still believed Muhammad is Dut 18:18.

No way it is Muhammad.

Truth.8

Is Holy Spirit "Ahmad" or "Mohammed"?


The Ranks, Battle Array, Sura 61:6, "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: 'O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, 'this is evident sorcery!'"

On the one side, Allah and Muslims claim that Allah is the same God of the Bible, and that Jesus was sent by Allah, but on the other side Allah does not know what Jesus promised to send in this world after His return to the Father. If Allah sent Jesus to this world, then why Allah was not aware of what Jesus promised to send after His ascension to heaven? Come, let us look to the Bible for what Jesus promised for His followers.

Jesus said, in John 14:16-18, "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

Again, Jesus said, in John 14:26-27, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

Again, Jesus said, in John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

We can see from the above verses that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth for those who believe on His name. No human being can claim himself/herself as the Spirit of Truth because God is the absolute truth and His Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

The same verse further says, "The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father...." But as we saw before, that Mohammed denied the fatherhood of God so there is no question of Mohammed' proceeding from the father.

The Bible also says in John 14:16 says, "He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever;" and the eighteenth verse says, "He dwells with you and will be in you." So, we can understand that Jesus did not promise to send a messenger but the Holy Spirit who was to come and dwell in us. A man or woman cannot come and dwell in us but the Quran says that Jesus promised to send Ahmad (this is the name of Mohammed the founder of Islam).

The above verse also says, "He may abide with you forever." We all know that Mohammed died and is no more in this world, so how is it possible that he may abide with us forever? It is not possible for a human being to abide with us forever, but it is possible only with God. He can come down and live with us. He can abide with us and be in us. So, obviously, Jesus did not promise a fallible human being but infallible Spirit of God, who is everlasting to everlasting.

We find in John 14:18 that Jesus said, "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." When the Holy Spirit comes in our lives, He gives comfort and peace in our hearts. In the time of trouble and in the time of tears, He comforts us. That is the reason why Jesus said, in John 14:27, "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." Only God can give us peace and comfort which this world cannot give, which others cannot give, so of course, we do not see as if it was spoken for any person but this was spoken for the Spirit of God.

Jesus also said, in John 14:26, "He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

Jesus said even more about the Holy Spirit: "when He will come, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." But we know that Mohammed or Ahmad did not say what Jesus said. Jesus proclaimed again and again that He came to give His life for His sheep, to die and to rise again, etc. But Mohammed said that Jesus did not die on the cross. He also said that it appeared as if Jesus was crucified but actually, He did not die on the cross. Also, we can see a totally contradictory message in the Quran that Jesus never proclaimed. If Ahmad or Mohammed was the messenger that Jesus promised for us, then he should have brought to our remembrance what Jesus had said. Jesus did not promise to send a messenger with a new message, did He? No!! So, of course, Ahmad is not the promised Holy Spirit.

Jesus also said, in John 16:13, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."
This verse tells us that when Holy Spirit will come He will guide us in all truth ... and will tell us things to come. Only God is truth and only God can lead us in truth. A man or woman who never knew truth, or a person who is not absolute truth cannot lead us in truth. For example, if you know the direction to go to a certain place, then only you can show the way to others but if you do not know the direction, you cannot show the way. The same thing is with Mohammed, who was a human being and was who searching for truth and the way until his last breath. It is impossible for a man who never knew truth to show us the way of truth. But Jesus promised a helper who will guide us in all truth--none other than Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth or Spirit of God Himself.

This verse also says that, "He will tell you things to come." Yes, the Holy Spirit will not only lead you and guide you, but also He will tell you the things that are ahead of you. He will predict your future. Isn't it wonderful that Holy Spirit will come and dwell in us and with us so that we may know what is ahead of us? Yes, no man can predict your future, but God can, and when the Holy Spirit comes and abides in us, He shows us what is ahead of us.

John 16:14, "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you."

Jesus said, in the above verse that the Holy Spirit would glorify Him. But Mohammed never gave glory to Jesus nor glorified Him in anyway, but he (Mohammed) discredited the work of Lord Jesus Christ that was done on the cruel cross for my, and for your, salvation. He abrogated the message of the precious blood that was shed on the cruel cross so that we may come out of our sins and live in peace with Him eternally. Oh, and Mohammed ignored this most precious and important work of Christ. How it is possible that if Jesus sent Mohammed he could forget the most important thing? Again, it proves nothing, but Mohammed is not the promised Holy Spirit, and Allah is not the God of the Bible because all these verses show lack of knowledge with Allah in this matter.
And the final thought: Jesus promised to send the "Holy Spirit." But the Quran and Hadith both tell us that Mohammed was not holy or could not live a holy life. In the Quran and Hadith many a times Mohammed asked forgiveness of his sins to Allah.God is truth and His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Himself and it cannot be human. Mohammed blasphemed God by declaring "Ahmad" or "Mohammed" as the Holy Spirit.

And the final thought: Jesus promised to send the "Holy Spirit." But the Quran and Hadith both tell us that Mohammed was not holy or could not live a holy life. In the Quran and Hadith many a times Mohammed asked forgiveness of his sins to Allah.God is truth and His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Himself and it cannot be human. Mohammed blasphemed God by declaring "Ahmad" or "Mohammed" as the Holy Spirit.(quote: twit)

You are a very confused man twit. Holy spirit itu adalah tanggapan engkau sendiri seolah-olah ia bererti tuhan. Mana engkau tahu apa perkataan yang digunakan dalam bahasa asalnya? Engkau tahu berbahasa Hebrew?

Ayat-ayat bible yang engkau petik di atas telah di terjemah atas terjemahan atas terjemahan dari satu bahasa ke satu bahasa padahal bahasa asalnya telah hilang ditelan zaman.

Spirit di sini bermaksud roh. Kita semua ada roh. Roh lah yang membuatkan kita dapat hidup. Roh Nabi Muhammad ialah roh yang suci kerana dia utusan Allah yang akhir. Roh nabi-nabi lain juga suci. Bahkan roh manusia itu asalnya semuanya suci - termasuk roh engkau (tetapi telah dikotori oleh syirik, seperti yang kau alami sekarang - menyekutukan Allah).

Apabila dikatakan suci di sni bermaksud ia beriman, bersih dari syirik dan kekufuran. Ia menyerah bulat-bulat kepada Allah. A holy spirit or a holy soul is a soul that is clean from all forms of unfaithlessness, its faith is pure and it submits completely to the Will of the Creator.

Maka roh itu (yang disebut oleh Nabi Allah Musa) ialah roh Nabi Muhammad - perutusan Allah yang terakhir bagi manusia - bagi anak cucu nabi Adam.

Holy spirit here means holy soul of man and the man is Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Lagi satu, Nabi Muhammad berdo'a bukan seperti fahaman do'a engkau. Do'a engkau hanya untuk mintak tolong mendapat sesuatu ataupun minta diampunkan dosa sahaja (itu pun kau takkan dapat) - untuk faedah diri engkau semata-mata - untuk dapat untung.
:2cool:
Do'a rasulullah adalah satu kesyukuran yang amat sangat, satu penghambaan yang amat sangat, satu pembalasan budi dan kasih yang amat sangat kepada Tuhan, Allah yang maha esa. Dan do'a baginda bukan untuk diri baginda sendiri sahaja, malahan untuk umatnya dan untuk sekelian alam. Ia juga untuk dijadikan teladan (sebagai contoh, supaya mereka juga begitu kepada Allah), bagi umatnya.

Jadi janganlah engkau berfikiran terlalu cetek, twit - kalau tak tahu belajar. Kalau nak berdegil, maka hiduplah engkau dalam kesesatan yang nyata.

Engkau betul-betul sesat melarat twit. Ma'af, Pahit tetapi amat benar.:re:

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 6-9-2003 at 05:40 PM ]

Debmey

Firstly, Mo was never a holy man of any sort and can therefore not be the Holy spirit.
And what the hell is the holy soul of man? If Mo can be called that, anyone on earth can qualify as the Holy Spirit. mo will be the last.  

peace be unto you

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 6-9-2003 05:19 PM:
And the final thought: Jesus promised to send the "Holy Spirit." But the Quran and Hadith both tell us that Mohammed was not holy or could not live a holy life. In the Quran and Hadith ma ...

u wrong ....Holy Spirit is spirit of God. How can  be Dut 18:18 apply to Muhammad when u believed Jesus is Prophet. Thats come to conclusion that Dut 18:18 is Jesus. Whether Muslims believed Jesus is Prophet or not....the key answer is Dut 18:18 is JESUS and not Muhammad.

Truth.8

Originally posted by Debmey at 6-9-2003 06:29 PM:
Firstly, Mo was never a holy man of any sort and can therefore not be the Holy spirit.
And what the hell is the holy soul of man? If Mo can be called that, anyone on earth can qualify as the Holy  ...

Yes, Muhammad use many tactic by giving excuses that he received relevation that he alone can marry more than 4 wives. Thats why he ended marrying 9 wives ++++concubines comes to 14.

No wonder the angel came and cleanse his heart. Why does the angel does that? because full of dirty minded and heart.

He is not fit to be Prophet at all.:agr:nf:

[ Last edited by Truth.8 on 6-9-2003 at 07:58 PM ]

sonny~~

the bottomline is if dut 18:18 is meant for socalled god jesus christ, then u're paintin twit twinity n trinity god bein greedy for power despite his almightiness

twit twinity n trinity god wanna be man; he also wanna be messiah; he also wanna be saviour n last but not least he wanna be prophet

he has no faith on his creation prophets to save his creation man from joinin his creation satan in hell.  pity  :bg:

peace

When the Prophet began preaching his Message, he had to face severe opposition, but he confronted all the opposition with a smile on his lips.

Once, the leaders of the Quraysh warned Abu Talib, the Prophet’s uncle, to persuade his nephew to abandon preaching his mission. The Prophet answered:

"O uncle! Should they place the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, so as to make me renounce this mission, I shall not do so. I will never give it up; either it will please God to make it triumph or I shall perish it the attempt."

The faith, perseverance and resolution, with which Prophet Muhammad carried his mission to ultimate success, is an eloquent proof of the supreme truth of his cause.



On another occasion, a deputation of the leading Quraysh called on him and offered him all the worldly glory they could imagine in return for his abandoning his mission. They said:

-" If you want to possess wealth, we will amass for you as much as you wish; if you aspire to win honor and power, we are prepared to swear allegiance to you as our overlord and king; if you have a fancy for beauty, you shall have the hand of the most beautiful maiden of your own choice."

The terms were extremely tempting for any ordinary human, but they had no significance in the eyes of the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings. He responded:

"I want neither wealth nor power. God has commissioned me as a warner to humanity. I deliver His Message to you. Should you accept it, you shall have felicity in this life and eternal bliss in the life Hereafter. Should you reject the Word of God, surely God will decide between you and me."



The faith, perseverance and resolution, with which he carried his mission to ultimate success, is an eloquent proof of the supreme truth of his cause.

Had there been the slightest doubt or uncertainty in his heart, he would never have been able to brave the storm that continued in all its fury for 23 long years.
_________________________________________________________

TESTIMONIES

"I have studied him - the wonderful man - and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ he must be called the saviour of humanity. "   -   George Bernard Shaw in "The Genuine Islam"   

"Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced  technological methods that this is the case. -Professor Alfred Kroner who is one of the world’s most famous geologists     

"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read or write. In fact, he was illiterate. We are talking about 1400 years ago. You have someone who was illiterate making profound pronouncement and statements and are amazingly accurate  about scientific nature. I personally cannot see how this could be mere chance. There are too many accuracy’s and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind in concerning that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements."  -  
Dr. T.V.N. Persaud is a Professor of Anatomy and Head of the Dept of Anatomy, and a professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.   He is the author or editor of 25 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada.

The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? " - Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-2727   

"Muhammed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities." Encyclopedia Britannica  

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." --Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.   

"In little more than a year he was actually the spiritual, nominal and temporal rule of Medina, with his hands on the lever that was to shake the world." - John Austin, "Muhammad the Prophet of Allah," in T.P. 's and Cassel's Weekly for 24th September 1927.  

It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur’aan  about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or 'Allah', because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of Allah -
Professor Keith Moore, one of the world’s prominent scientists of anatomy and  embryology.  University of Toronto, Canada.
   
It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but do describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So, this is definitely not a simple human knowledge - Professor Dorja Rao

"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity.  To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves.  Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."
--W. Montgomery Watt, MOHAMMAD AT MECCA, Oxford, 1953, p. 52.   

"People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same."- Professor Jules Masserman   

"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him."- Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. l 22.   

" From my studies and from what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur’an 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the One Who is an eligible Creator. This Creator must be Allah. Therefore, I think this is the time to say ‘Laa ilaaha illallah’, that there is no Allah to worship except Allah, ‘Muhammad Rasul  l  Allah’, Muhammad is messenger of Allah... - Professor Tagata Tagasone, formerly Head of the Department of Anatomy and Embryology at the University of Shiang Mai in Thailand. He is now the Dean of the College of the Medicine at the University.
  
"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race . . . Mohammed . . . "- John William Draper, M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875, Vol.1, pp.329-330   

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy.  But the angel commanded 'Read.'  So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: 'There is one God.'  --James A. Michener, "Islam: The Misunderstood Religion," in READER'S DIGEST (American edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70.   

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme.  And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."  --Annie Besant, THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras, 1932, p. 4

[ Last edited by KENNKID on 7-9-2003 at 02:07 PM ]

Truth.8

Originally posted by KENNKID at 7-9-2003 02:04 PM:



When the Prophet began preaching his Message, he had to face severe opposition, but he confronted all the opposi ...

Wiriting toooo long posting it no use because Muslims believed that Jesus is prophet then Dut 18:18 is apply to Jesus and not Muhammad.

So simple and yet want to argue.

Truth.8

Originally posted by sonny~~ at 7-9-2003 12:33 PM:
the bottomline is if dut 18:18 is meant for socalled god jesus christ, then u're paintin twit twinity n trinity god bein greedy for power despite his almightiness

twit twinity n trinity god wann ...

Whether Jesus is God or Prophet time will tell. At this momenth Muslims have to agreed that Dut 18:18 is Jesus because Muslims believed Jesus is Prophet.

sonny~~

Originally posted by Truth.8 at 2003-9-7 03:05 PM:
Whether Jesus is God or Prophet time will tell. At this momenth Muslims have to agreed that Dut 18:18 is Jesus because Muslims believed Jesus is Prophet.

wrong
jesus may be prophet for muslims but they may believe mo is the prophet for dut 18:18
unitarian christians may believe jesus is the prophet in the dut 18:18 but hes no more man than us.  jesus no god
twit twinity n trinity christians may believe jesus is the prophet in the dut 18:18 but hes also god to 'em.  hence ur twit twinity n trinity god is greedy for power despite his almightiness.  he wanna be god; he wanna be man; he wanna be messiah; he wanna be saviour n now hes supposedly a prophet.  wot rot  :bg:

peace